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Review: Epik Empire and Seaton Submersive - Page 18

post #511 of 721
Sunjective findings are great but the same thing happens on every thread. Another thread has a person that likes his single MFW-15 better than the Empire and all the Empire guys went crazy. The same sub can sound great in one room and bad in another. Just because a person likes one sub better than another does not mean it is better for everyone. There are many factors involved with perceived sound quality. Did the OP even place them in the same spot? Maybe one spot has a null? Every graph I have seen of a submersive has extension down into the single digits or close to it and the 2 or 3 graphs I have seen of the empire falls off at 15-16hz. Again different rooms but to get 10hz extension rather than 15 hz extension cost extra money folks.
post #512 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

But isn't that very important to know? Won't that seriously effect what you're hearing from your sub?

Absolutely... but waterfall graphs primarily provide information about your room. They measure the decay time of the room, not the subwoofer specifically. As penn noted, in-room reflections happen very early and impact the sound. Reducing those early reflections, (or canceling them as with Audyssey), will decrease the decay time in the room. However, if you want to know anything about the transient response of the subwoofer itself, (how rapidly the cone comes to rest after it has been excited by the signal and the signal has "stopped",) you can only measure that directly from the sub, and using Impulse Response.

Here is an example of an Impulse Response test:



http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-3.html

The Impulse Response of the sub PLUS the decay characteristics of the room will determine how long the sounds "overhangs" in the space. A sub with good transient response, in a room with short decay times will provide tight, accurate bass. IMO, the time characteristics of the sub and the room are more important to sound quality than flat frequency response.

That said, I would expect both the Empire and the Submersive to have excellent transient response characteristics. Actually, looking at the 2-D T/E/F chart in the FR graph of the Submersive, you can see that the "overhang" of the sub driver is *very* short, as evidenced by the red within the first few milliseconds of the output. There is a "resonance" at about 20 Hz, but that is likely a room reflection superimposed on the close-mic'd response. There is another low-level energy spike at about 60 Hz, but that's likely caused by an extremely low level hum being picked up by the mic at that close distance. That hum is inaudible at greater than 2 ft., but the mic was 6" from the driver when I took that measurement.

I could try to take some close-mic'd waterfalls of the Submersive later and see what they show. They might provide some insight into the transient response. I'll try to do that this weekend.

Craig
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post #513 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

We just want to see that you able to do what your demanding of us.

Craig

Precisely, so finally Craig gets it Pl go back to all the posts by Submersive owners including yours and demands being made to michman I was providing a healthy reminder to the hypocrisy ....

So still after that many years no 2m gp and max spl yet claims abound...should not Seaton himself done it by now? Craigsub is doing it even before his subs are out...we will know what stuff Empire is made up of soon...give young'un some time. If somebody says they found of x better than y...chill out man, let everybody live and enjoy in peace. If you insist your choice is definitely better than anything else, politely put relevant data out and let it be.....

We will share notes later on what I have and have not done later
post #514 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Absolutely... but waterfall graphs primarily provide ...

Ya know, it was hard enough to be happy with my setup after a couple of weeks of REW graphs and tons of trial and error with placement now you guys are thowing in time delays, tears in the space time continuum, spacial anamolies, etc!! Great, now I have to stress about those things too ... back to square one!

So, I think our new place has GREAT acoustics, the materials used for/in the walls have great soundproofing characteristics imho. I say this only because when the other half is bitchin' me out from the other side of the house, I can barely hear her. Which is GREAT btw.

Will these waterfalls, rainbows, etc give me an idea of what sort of room treatments I would need, if any?

(Sorry about the slightly off topic)

Thanks,
Don
post #515 of 721
This thread has jumped the shark.

It is like reading a transcript of The View, a bunch of old hags bickering.
post #516 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

This thread has jumped the shark.

It is like reading a transcript of The View, a bunch of old hags bickering.

I was eating lunch at my desk when I read this and almost LOL'd my lunch all over my work keyboard and monitor!
post #517 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

This thread has jumped the shark.

It is like reading a transcript of The View, a bunch of old hags bickering.

Priceless...!
post #518 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zmaximus View Post

Precisely, so finally Craig gets it Pl go back to all the posts by Submersive owners including yours and demands being made to michman I was providing a healthy reminder to the hypocrisy ....

Hypocrisy? I never asked michman to do outdoor GP measurements. In fact, I specifically stated that it would be asking too much. It's *you* that is demanding outdoor GP measurements without any proof that you understand the complexities or intricacies of doing them, nor any proof that you've ever done them yourself. I deleted a comment from my previous post, but I'll add it back here: Put up or shut up!

I *have* done all the in-room measurements I suggested michman do, and posted proof of it, so no hypocrisy there.

Craig
post #519 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidmaven View Post

I guess it all depends on which posts you read. Some defintely seem immediately negative and far from what would be considered healthy. In fact some actually sound like a bunch of wives sitting around trying to "one up" or demean the next one. But that's just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

This thread has jumped the shark.

It is like reading a transcript of The View, a bunch of old hags bickering.

Finally someone agrees!
post #520 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Absolutely... but waterfall graphs primarily provide information about your room. They measure the decay time of the room, not the subwoofer specifically......

Gotcha. I see what you were saying now.
post #521 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidmaven View Post

Finally someone agrees!

Why so serious dudes? I am not into graphs but I do not ingore or block users who are into them since it is a FORUM. It is just a lot to grasp. Everyone is talking audio but we need not take it that seriously where we can't laugh and jar each other. I see this as no different from hanging out with the boys watching sports. We are there to watch sports but also to have a good time. Lighten up! How many people would actually visit this site if Science was a prerequisite? Use the 'blocking/ignore" feature.
post #522 of 721
To be honest I am growing tired of this thread. Best thing to do is close it until the OP has actually taken the measurements and then start a new thread "Here's my findings"

surely I am not the only one thinking this.

No disrespect to the OP but come on.......

cheers

Graham
post #523 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Absolutely
I could try to take some close-mic'd waterfalls of the Submersive later and see what they show. They might provide some insight into the transient response. I'll try to do that this weekend.

Craig

How long did it take you to absorb this stuff? Have you ever assisted a nieghboring AVSer with their setup or invited someone over while doing yours?
post #524 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Gotcha. I see what you were saying now.

Love the location in the sig
post #525 of 721
Thread Starter 
Hey guys, sorry for the wait. At this point I have pretty much alienated everybody within a half mile radius of my home. I have run more test tones and movie scenes than you would believe. My wife is pretty tired of this comparison, especially after I accidentally unmuted my computer before a test tone while I was working on this late at night. I am going to be going out of town this weekend but wanted to make sure I posted before I left. I will try to answer any questions when I get back but won't have computer access this weekend.


Both subs are really musical and I really love the dual sealed sub design. The subs don't really vibrate at all because of the opposite firing drivers. They have less overhang and sound better than my old Velodyne DD-15. It was hard to tell the Empires and the Submersive apart during music playback once the levels were matched since neither sub seemed to approach its limits on music. I would say that they are equals in this regard.


On movies, both subs performed really well. Movie soundtracks with very heavy output below 15 Hz could get the Submersive to clip while the dual Empires have yet to clip. During the pod emergence scene in WOTW particularly, the Submersive's amp would start clipping heavily while the dual Empires never clipped even when I played them louder. I feel like the low end EQ on the Submersive is a blessing and a curse.


The Submersive is rated to play down to 10 Hz and is EQ'ed to be very flat down this low. This was one of the things that interested me in the Submersive in the first place. Even the first FR sweep showed this deep extension. The problem is that when you play movies that actually go to 10 Hz, it can't play anywhere near as loud at 10 Hz as it is trying to and it would clip.


The Empire is rated on their site to play down to 15 Hz, but I discovered that the dual Empires can actually play louder at 10 Hz than the Submersive can. They just aren't EQ'ed as heavily down low. On paper that sounds worse(at least it did to me), but it meant that they are almost impossible to overdrive.


The Submersive clipping only seemed to happen during scenes with heavy 10 Hz bass like WOTW or Master and Commander. On pretty much everything else, both subs hammered out soundtracks with ease. The midbass was punchy and I could feel it in my couch. There was no boom or slowness, only tight explosive bass. The dual Empires can play noticeably louder than the Submersive. This gave them a bit more slam and more wow factor and I got more of that hit in the chest feeling. The pair can also play cleaner at the same levels as the Submersive.


If I had only purchased the Submersive to replace my DD-15, I would be raving about its tightness, musicality, HUGE output and the quality of the bass. It goes deep and it hits HARD. For its size it is amazing. It still costs less than my DD-15 and it blows it out of the water. However, the Empires do manage to deliver more output, which was a shock to me. They are cleaner at the same output level and they sound better to my ears than the Submersive does in my setup. A pair of them is larger than the Submersive, but one Empire is smaller than the Submersive.


At this point, it looks like I am keeping the Empires. They are the best bass I have ever heard. If dual Empires were the same price as the Submersive I would still buy them. The fact that they are $500 less is just an added bonus. For some people with less space or unlimited budgets, the SUbmersive may be a better option. For my situation, the Empires are perfect.




Here are frequency response graphs. I used REW with a Behringer ECM8000 mic. More measurements in the next posts.
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post #526 of 721
Thread Starter 
Here are 100 dB test tones showing the difference in distortion/overtones between the two subwoofers. The frequencies tested were 12, 16, 20, 25, and 32 Hz. These were all taken at my listening position. At 16 Hz, my room vibrates pretty heavily which is the reason for the strange peakiness of the graph. However, the tests are still very comparable. The tests were taken with TrueRTA and a Behringer ECM800 mic.

Here are 12 and 16 HZ results.
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post #527 of 721
Thread Starter 
Here are the 20 and 25 Hz results.
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post #528 of 721
Thread Starter 
And here are the 32 Hz results.
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post #529 of 721
Thread Starter 
Here are max SPL numbers for each subwoofer taken at my listening position. The frequencies tested were 12, 16, 20, 25, and 32 Hz. I stopped before the subwoofers were audibly distorting. Turning up the volume any louder only increased distortion, not output. As you can see there is a room mode at 12 Hz that gives both subs big numbers down low in my room! The tests were also taken with TrueRTA and a Behringer ECM800 mic. When I measure this with an RS meter, it shows a lot higher SPL.

These are the results for 12 and 16 Hz.
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post #530 of 721
Great post....thanks for the feedback!

How high do you have the volume dial on the SubM?

And when you said it clipped? Is the light just coming on or is SubM shutting off completely and coming back on?
post #531 of 721
Thread Starter 
Max SPL results for 20 and 25 Hz.
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post #532 of 721
Thread Starter 
Max SPL for 32 Hz. Wow, I feel like I just completed a Homework assignment!
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post #533 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by michman View Post

here are max spl numbers for each subwoofer taken at my listening position. The frequencies tested were 12, 16, 20, 25, and 32 hz. I stopped before the subwoofers were audibly distorting. Turning up the volume any louder only increased distortion, not output. As you can see there is a room mode at 12 hz that gives both subs big numbers down low in my room! The tests were also taken with truerta and a behringer ecm800 mic. When i measure this with an rs meter, it shows a lot higher spl.

These are the results for 12 and 16 hz.

michman i love you bro. Woooohoooo. Yeah you deserve a vacation from us. Enjoy.
post #534 of 721
Thread Starter 
When I say that it clipped, the light would come on and there was a loud popping sound. Kind of scary until I realized the amp was just clipping and not the sub bottoming out.
post #535 of 721
Let the man rest. Hats off to Mark and Chad for delivering excellent products. I now have more respect for the Submersive as a single-sub option, albeit an expensive one for me. Great job to Chad for delivering performance and value in spades. WOW!
post #536 of 721
Sweet review...thanks!

I know it probably feels like you've been through hell already, but is there any way you took any pics of the testing?
post #537 of 721
Thread Starter 
I do have some pictures but realized that I left the memory stick in my car. I will post some pictures when I get back next week. Adios until then.

I know everyone won't agree with what I found and how I did it but I hope that people find this helpful. Let the flaming begin.
post #538 of 721
I don't recall if this was posted already, but were the Empires co-located for these tests?

Btw, thanks for your effort michman!
post #539 of 721
Michman, thanks for all of your hard work with these in-room graphs. I for one was looking foward to this comparison regardless of which sub came out on top. It's already established that Mark Seaton's Submersive is an extremely well built, sealed sub (with the option of various veneers) that has satisfied 99.9% of customers that have tried and were not satisfied with other "big boy" subs out there. And rightfully so as Mr Seaton is a skilled designer as well, playing around and mixing complex designs. With Chad's Epik Empire offering competition, this just means more choices for present consumers, and higher quality/ performing subs in the future from other manufacturers. The future consumer wins here.

Glad the Empires suit your needs, and thanks again michman for your hard work.

Grade: A
post #540 of 721
Very Very Very well done! One note, you mentioned that the Epik's had good output down to 10hz as well as the Submersive but the graphs (cut off at 15hz) show the Epik dropping like a rock heading toward 15hz where the Submersive is holding strong. I don't think that really negates any aspect of the comparison, just pointing it out

Only one test I would have liked to see would have been another THD and max output test at a higher frequency, say 80hz and 100hz (maybe even 120hz) with the XO disabled. I suspect that may have shown something of interest but perhaps not
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