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Review: Epik Empire and Seaton Submersive - Page 3

post #61 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

It sounds like you should be readily able to tell us the profit margin on the Empire and Ultra since you've got the build costs of each figured out. Based on your logic, when the Introductory pricing on the Empire ends and the price for 1 is $999.00 the drivers will automatically be of higher quality.....right?

Yes, as a former business owner I can come very close.
But, like I said, there are reasons. You may choose not to believe them or want to hear them. That is your prerogative, to each his own. It is simple economics.

The original point was that just because a model has two 15" drivers does not guarantee it will outperform product X with one.
post #62 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2060 View Post

The Submersive doesn't need an auto-on feature, as it uses less power when idle than most subs do when on "standby".

Also a hum issue isn't the fault of a subwoofer.

Some of us like an auto on for the convenience.
post #63 of 721
In related news...

I think a single empire will compete well with a single submersive. Will it go as deep and put out as much SPL? Probably not. But $700 vs. $2000 will the difference be that noticeable? I don't think so. Measurable perhaps but not like night and day. And, of course, a 2nd Empire thrown in the mix will narrow the gap even more.
post #64 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Yes, as a former business owner I can come very close.
But, like I said, there are reasons. You may choose not to believe them or want to hear them. That is your prerogative, to each his own. It is simple economics.

The original point was that just because a model has two 15" drivers does not guarantee it will outperform product X with one.

Sounds like you could have used a few "business" pointers from Chad
post #65 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

As a matter of fact, once again, I never knocked it at all. Yes, I have had heard them and never stated that they were not worth the money. I simply stated that you get what you pay for. In fact, I have heard them and have assisted other members in calibrating their setups. Some are comparing them to models costing much more and or even ported subs, which gets a little over the top.) Everyone I talk to is thrilled with them and they should be.
This thread and most others are about comparison. I am comparing the drivers in the Empire with drivers from other capable products. The simple fact that there is an economic reason for why 4 drivers, two amps, two enclosures can be had for <$1500 AND why it costs around the same for a single PB-13 or XXX model from company B. So, performance perspective is in order. But, I guess I must be wrong, they must be losing money on every one. They are probably part of the stimulus plan or subsidized like corn. Just like there are reasons that my other drivers cost as much as two empires.

Obviously, at least one other person thought the same thing I did, wonder who posted the pictures first?

I hate pointless debates. Are you implying that Seaton, SVS, Paradigm, HSU, Velodyne, Deftech, etc just LOVE you so much that they give you what you pay for? You are paying a huge premium for those brands. Do you honestly and sanely think that their markup is irrelevant and consequently their profit is irrelevant as well? Oh wait you are a "former" business owner!
post #66 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm1699 View Post

Sounds like you could have used a few "business" pointers from Chad

Not quite, divorce took care of that.
BTW, I am glad I got out of that before this economic nightmare started.
Sadly, There are now many thousands of "former" business owners.

BTW, I also sold (and managed a dept.) local retail electronics for several years while I worked my way through school. If that doesn't give you insight into cost structures, profit margins, overhead, fixed costs, wholesale business models, product life cycle pricing structures, marketing, competitive pricing, loss leaders, keystone products, etc. etc., nothing will. We also did some ID sales as well. Several of my buddies worked for the pathetic Circuit City too, sales and management. They had full access to the POS system....insane stuff. Interestingly, after they left the company, we laughed when I told them the company would not last 5 years with the existing management and practices. A little over four years later they closed their doors.
Those experiences were more valuable than my MBA.
post #67 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm1699 View Post

I hate pointless debates. Are you implying that Seaton, SVS, Paradigm, HSU, Velodyne, Deftech, etc just LOVE you so much that they give you what you pay for? You are paying a huge premium for those brands. Do you honestly and sanely think that their markup is irrelevant and consequently their profit is irrelevant as well? Oh wait you are a "former" business owner!

What, I am not implying that anyone give me anything, nor their "LOVE"
I never claimed irrelevance of anything.

I am also a former student, does that mean I flunked out. You are a former child...I think.

There is no debate. This is about comparison of products, get with the program.

Some people can't take any analysis, positive or negative, period.
They must personally attack the person for having opinions, making observations or disagreeing with them. Sounds like MSNBC!
I never knocked the product, once again I simply stated that you get what you pay for.
I also stated that, like other users, that the drivers in the Epik don't appear to be as beefy as the former products.
(This is somewhat curious because a sealed design is where the most power and excursion are needed to produce the lowest octaves.)

Those are my observations, if you don't like them, make your own.
Incidentally, my observations are based on my experiences with the dozens of subwoofers I have owned (some of the brands you mentioned above) and designed/built. Some of the drivers I used weigh in at more than most whole subwoofers!

Wtih regard to comparing products, I also stated that you can't base performance on how many drivers are in the design.
I never said that people should not buy one, two or twenty. I never said that people would be disappointed with their purchase.
I DID say that I would like to see it tested to find out what the actual performance is, THD limited.
THEN we would know what 'the value' of it really is, regardless of asking price or marketing or anecdotal comments.
post #68 of 721
Seriously guys,

Can you take this debate to a PM, your going way off topic here and some of us just want to hear how the Submersive compares to the Empire. I didn't come here for an economics lesson.
post #69 of 721
Back to topic.

Does anyone know of what means of testing will be conducted, measurement, subjective listening or combination?
post #70 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Not quite, divorce took care of that.
BTW, I am glad I got out of that before this economic nightmare started.
There are now many thousands of "former" business owners.

BTW, I also sold (and managed a dept.) local retail electronics for several years while I worked my way through school. If that doesn't give you insight into cost structures, profit margins, overhead, fixed costs, wholesale business models, product life cycle pricing structures, marketing, competitive pricing, loss leaders, keystone products, etc. etc., nothing will. We also did some ID sales as well. Several of my buddies worked for the pathetic Circuit City too, sales and management. They had full access to the POS system....interesting.
Those experiences were more valuable than my MBA.

I went from a beloved PC12-Ultra(owned SB12-Plus, current PB12-Plus, and PC10-NSD) to the Empire. The Empire is my first Epik sub and I purchased it based on reviews and feedback from people who own other Epik subs. The leap of faith was the same as it was for the SVS. I was NEVER EVER going to own a Seaton Submersive based on the price ALONE. Also, I was drawn to the Empire because of it's value. I really want to hear the comparison since Dual Empires cost less than a submersive. The submersive is highly regarded and therefore makes for an ideal comparison. As for economic conditions, that is another reason why I appreciate Chad's efforts. His products are top notch and I CAN afford them. History is not good to companies who are slow to adapt.
post #71 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm1699 View Post

I went from a beloved PC12-Ultra(owned SB12-Plus, current PB12-Plus, and PC10-NSD) to the Empire. The Empire is my first Epik sub and I purchased it based on reviews and feedback from people who own other Epik subs. The leap of faith was the same as it was for the SVS. I was NEVER EVER going to own a Seaton Submersive based on the price ALONE. Also, I was drawn to the Empire because of it's value. I really want to hear the comparison since Dual Empires cost less than a submersive. The submersive is highly regarded and therefore makes for an ideal comparison. As for economic conditions, that is another reason why I appreciate Chad's efforts. His products are top notch and I CAN afford them. History is not good to companies who are slow to adapt.

Agreed. I had many an SVSs as well, including Ultra/2. I eventually couldn't keep taking the hits from the upgrade-itis and went DIY. I learned a ton along the way, what a great hobby, not cheap, but fun. I am not sure anything can cure me. I just built another and am already planning yet another.

It should be an interesting comparo. I just hope it is a little more than subjective...nothing wrong with that, but a ton of variables.

The Epiks may have the edge just in product life cycle. It is amazing how much more you get for your money than you did just a couple years ago at every price level. Just a few short years ago, there was no SVS, HSU, Epik, eD, companies like JL were around but had no interest in the then small HT subwoofer market, etc. Companies such as TC Sounds (who supplied many of the OEM drivers for companies like SVS and others) has come back from the dead. Demand has increased and the subwoofer market has grown tremendously yeilding better more capable products with each iteration (and most seem to be doing well in this economy too) Just drivers alone, 12-15mm xmax was very good a few years ago, now there are drivers with over 40+mm of xmax! 300w RMS was a big deal, now there are drivers that can handle 2500-5000w with ease.
What was amazing performance just a few years ago, is often ho hum now. It is an exciting time in HT!
Speaking of which, Velodyne is to release an all new DD series sometime this year. I just keeps getting better and better.
He already stated that both setups already blow his DD-15 away, nice.

How soon can we expect the official comparo?
post #72 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Some of us like an auto on for the convenience.

Why not just leave the Submersive on all the time? As when you put other subwoofers in standby they use just as much power if not more.
post #73 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2060 View Post

Why not just leave the Submersive on all the time? As when you put other subwoofers in standby they use just as much power if not more.

Or you could get a trigger powered power supply that would switch on automatically with your receiver.
post #74 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

No one wants their expensive toy to look bad, so owners of Submersives may get upset about the potential results.

Regardless of the proclaimed outcome, somehow I don't think any Submersive owners are going to smack their forehead with their palm and proclaim, "Man, I could bought a Epik instead of this and saved $1200!"
post #75 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Some of us like an auto on for the convenience.

Lets put some imaginary numbers on this. Lets say you can have a subwoofer that has no auto on, but uses 5W when turned on just sitting there playing nothing. Or you can have a subwoofer with auto on that uses 20W in it's "Off" state. You still want the latter one because it has auto on even though it uses 4x the power?
post #76 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by michman View Post

I the ordered the Submersive in the black finish which looks like it is painted over veneer. It has no edge roundovers and the grills are ½ thick magnetically attached frames with stapled cloth and little felt pads. It is very simple and clean looking. The Empire has 1 inch roundovers on every corner and has a black laminate finish. It has 1 inch thick grills with large grill pins similar to my old Velodyne DD-15. The SUBmersive has a nicer finish, but I like the look of the Empire better. Once its in the corner I don't really care.

So you ordered the lowest end finish of the Submersive (satin black paint) ignoring all the real wood veneer options for the Submersive and are comparing it to a sub that only comes with with some sort of black plastic laminate and declare that the Epik looks better?
post #77 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Regardless of the proclaimed outcome, somehow I don't think any Submersive owners are going to smack their forehead with their palm and proclaim, "Man, I could bought a Epik instead of this and saved $1200!"

Fed Ex truck expected at my house any minute with a Submersive...maybe I should deny the delivery!!!!! LOL! Can't wait.

Also..can't wait for this compare to take shape. Good stuff!!!

Dave
post #78 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Lets put some imaginary numbers on this. Lets say you can have a subwoofer that has no auto on, but uses 5W when turned on just sitting there playing nothing. Or you can have a subwoofer with auto on that uses 20W in it's "Off" state. You still want the latter one because it has auto on even though it uses 4x the power?

Well, obviously, these power supplies have gotten extremely efficient in their designs. I guess I have an issue with leaving my power supply on 24x7x365 as it would seem to reduce its life expectancy. This probably isnt the case but just call me old school. From a marketing standpoint, I've been "sold" to the idea of a power supply shutting on and off automatically w/o digging deeper into the idle wattage ratings.

That been said however, I understand the points being made.
post #79 of 721
Michman, just get dual Submersives!
post #80 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Regardless of the proclaimed outcome, somehow I don't think any Submersive owners are going to smack their forehead with their palm and proclaim, "Man, I could bought a Epik instead of this and saved $1200!"

There will always be people to whom money is no object. For the rest of us, if a $799 sub can hold its own compared to a $2K sub that's big news! If I was to guess I'd say the Submersive will dig deeper at higher SPL, but the dual Empires would gain much of that back with proper placement. Let's see how this shakes out, I'm very anxious for some results!
post #81 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Lets put some imaginary numbers on this. Lets say you can have a subwoofer that has no auto on, but uses 5W when turned on just sitting there playing nothing. Or you can have a subwoofer with auto on that uses 20W in it's "Off" state. You still want the latter one because it has auto on even though it uses 4x the power?

If the key word here is "imaginary", why bother to put numbers to it unless you know the 20W is factual?
post #82 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

There will always be people to whom money is no object. For the rest of us, if a $799 sub can hold its own compared to a $2K sub that's big news! If I was to guess I'd say the Submersive will dig deeper at higher SPL, but the dual Empires would gain much of that back with proper placement. Let's see how this shakes out, I'm very anxious for some results!

Yeah -- But I'd like to know what the hold up is for this review? Come'on mich, surely you could have taken the last 2 days off of work and popped a few Vivarin's for us Epikoids and Submersivecons.

And yes, I did call you surely!

post #83 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

So you ordered the lowest end finish of the Submersive (satin black paint) ignoring all the real wood veneer options for the Submersive and are comparing it to a sub that only comes with with some sort of black plastic laminate and declare that the Epik looks better?

If he likes the look of the Epik better then so be it- why dont you spend $3,500.00 on a Submersive in the finish of your dreams and a pair of Empires and do the comparison for us?
post #84 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Well, obviously, these power supplies have gotten extremely efficient in their designs. I guess I have an issue with leaving my power supply on 24x7x365 as it would seem to reduce its life expectancy. This probably isnt the case but just call me old school. From a marketing standpoint, I've been "sold" to the idea of a power supply shutting on and off automatically w/o digging deeper into the idle wattage ratings.

That been said however, I understand the points being made.

I'd follow on to this.. it's a bad assumption that your amp with auto off is actually shutting off the power supply.. The points being made regarding power draw are the key. The auto power off amps gain you nothing more than a mental comfort knowing that some LED is either off or on.

Regardless.. auto off or not... in this case it's not a valid pro or con
post #85 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by zamboniman View Post

... it's a bad assumption that your amp with auto off is actually shutting off the power supply..

Interesting. SO, what exactly is the function of the auto on/off uh .. function? According to Epik's site for the Empire:

" ... the amplifiers auto' on function, which automatically turns the subwoofer on and off when you are listening to music or a movie."

Or is the point you're trying to make is it brings the amp to a reduced power state, technically never "off" ... sort of like most receivers?

I think most of us know that "something" is still on in the sub for it to power the led and sense an input signal.
post #86 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

There will always be people to whom money is no object. For the rest of us, if a $799 sub can hold its own compared to a $2K sub that's big news! If I was to guess I'd say the Submersive will dig deeper at higher SPL, but the dual Empires would gain much of that back with proper placement. Let's see how this shakes out, I'm very anxious for some results!

I like how you've already assumed you know the outcome, and that people who prefer to buy the more expensive product don't value their money. Even if they have similar SPL output in a 1:1 comparison (unlikely), there are still significant differences that people will pay for. For example, if you want a nice veneer on your subwoofer. Maybe they have drastically different behavior at the limit. People are willing to pay for that.

BTW, not everyone has room for a stack of Empires to compete with smaller higher performance subwoofers. Lets assume that a pair of Empires compares favorably to a Submersive. What if you've only got room for 2 subwoofers in your room? Maybe you just can't fit 4 Empires in your room so regardless of the bang for the buck quotient of the Empires the Submersive would still be a better solution there.

Mark Seaton isn't trying to redefine bang for the buck equation and sell thousands of subwoofers. He's making a bulletproof, high quality, high performance product that appeals to a certain portion of the market that appreciates what he's offering. His business is continuing to grow and expand. So, regardless of whether you see the "value" in a Submersive or not plenty of other people do.
post #87 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post


Or is the point you're trying to make is it brings the amp to a reduced power state, technically never "off" ... sort of like most receivers?

I think most of us know that "something" is still on in the sub for it to power the led and sense an input signal.

Yes... And that something is the power supply and some limited circuits.
post #88 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

If the key word here is "imaginary", why bother to put numbers to it unless you know the 20W is factual?

It's called an example to prove a point that having auto on isn't the most important detail, idle power is.

Try to keep up...
post #89 of 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

If he likes the look of the Epik better then so be it-

Slow your roll there... I didn't criticize his preference. I simply pointed out that if someone is picking one based on appearance they should considering the veneers offered on the Submersive.
Quote:


why dont you spend $3,500.00 on a Submersive in the finish of your dreams and a pair of Empires and do the comparison for us?

Because I have no interest in comparing the two subwoofers for myself or anyone else. What about you? Are you going to buy 'em and do it for us?
post #90 of 721
Calm down Stereodude, I'm not Diss'in the Submersive! I'm sure it's a great sub, that's not the point. No one cares how much or how little you want to spend, the whole idea here is how does the $799 Empire stack up to the $2K Submersive. I'm sure the success of the Empire doesn't bother Mark Seaton either. Like you said, he's not interested in selling thousands of subs, that's probably why he doesn't have a website!
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