Originally Posted by Camster
I use a WDTV Live over HDMI. Do you know what setting is best for it by chance? I'm using Auto currently.
Here's what I'm using in my video chain:
Display resolution: auto
| 1080p 60hz | 1080p 24hz | etc.
Color space: auto
| rgb high | rgb low | YCbCr
BD85 Blu-ray Player:
HDMI color mode: YCbCr (4:4:4)
| YCbCr (4:2:2)
| RGB (Standard) | RGB (Enhanced)
HDMI/DVI RGB Range : auto
| standard (16-235)
Denon AVR 1910:
No settings to make, but note batpig's FAQ:http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#video
says "recent model Denons will NOT pass full-range RGB unless you are connected to a DVI display." so care must be taken when attaching a PS3 or HTPC to newer Denon receivers with video gaming in mind (some video games use full 0-255 RGB color).
options are what I'm using. Underlined
options are those I suspect would work OK.
Below are some rationale for my settings. I'm writing it down because I'm not very knowledgeable on color issues and everything I know is just from reading and playing with settings. Anyone who spots an error in my reasoning, please correct me.The Big Picture
The name of the game is to understand what colorspace and color channel levels are used by source's (e.g DVD or BD players) and the TV at the end of the video chain, then make sure there are no mismatches along the way.
All the related color options in the video chain are important if you're calibrating your TV or want to get colors in the source material (DVD, BD, ripped movie, video game, etc.) to display properly on the TV.YCbCr Background Info
There are two variables to deal with in the video chain:
- Color space compression/decoding
- How color channel values are represented numerically
First thing to note is the color of pixels is represented in all DVD's and Blu-ray discs with a colorspace (a scheme) called YCbCr. RGB is not used!!! And YCbCr is actually a compressed color representation (think of it as the color equivalent of Dolby Digital and DTS). It takes ~60% of the space to represent a movie using YCbCr compared to using a non-compressed colorspace like RGB. So YCbCr is advantageous because you can cram more movie content on a disc with minimal loss in color fidelity.
Using YCbCr, not every pixel's color needs to be represented with a Y (luma) plus Cb and Cr (chroma) value. The color of some pixels are represented using only Y, or only Cb+Cb, or all three. This is how the space efficiency is obtained. The scheme leverages the fact that the human eye is more senstive to brightness (luma) than to color (chroma).
The last two paragraphs were necessary to explain why some owner's manuals refer to options such as YCbCr(4:2:0), YCbCr(4:2:2), and YCbCr(4:4:4). These options describe the level of compression or the amount of information contained in the pixel color representation (from least to most). DVD and BD discs use YCbCr(4:2:0). So its important to note that the numbers do not represent number of bits used for the Y, Cb, and Cr color channels! Just like regular 8-bit RGB, eight bits are used to represent Y, Cb, and Cr and their values are similar to Studio RGB in that they take on values from 16-235. **
** If the "deep color" HDMI option is being used throughout the video chain, then all color channels can increase to 10, 12, or 16-bits regardless of the colorspace used (that's another story).
Another important notion to carry away here is that DVD's and BD's have compressed/encoded color information that eventually needs to be decoded. Part of the decision making process is where you want that done. Most source devices (BDP's, media players) can do it, but TV's can do it too. This decision is analogous to the ones you make when deciding where you want video upscaling or surround sound decoding to happen in your system. When you ask a DVD/BD player to output RGB, or an audio device to output PCM, you're asking it to decode the source material.
Some good links that discuss YCbCr:http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ca...vels-xvycc-rgbhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsamplinghttp://lea.hamradio.si/~s51kq/V-BAS.HTMhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luma_(video
)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChrominanceVideo Chain Matching Decisions
For the WDTV, someone has used a video scaler/processor to confirm that the default colorspace setting "Auto" gives the same results as the YCbCr setting:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...172446&page=82
Since I'm playing mostly DVD and BD rips encoded in MPEG/H.264 (which also uses YCbCr color encoding) I've decided to leave colorspace on Auto. I think using YCbCr should also work fine, but I haven't tested it yet.
I haven't been able to get my WDTV Live Plus to output at 24hz for any of my BD rips (using MakeMKV) so I have resolution set to Auto for now.
My WDTV and BD85 both drive my Denon receiver. The Denon just passes the YCbCr data through untouched, so nothing to worry about there. As an aside, I would have an issue if I had a PS3 or HTPC connected to the Denon and was playing games that use full range computer RGB (0-255) color because the newer Denon's won't pass full range values unless you've got a DVI input on the TV. I'd consider connecting the PS3/HTPC directly to the G20/G25.
For my BD85, I'm using the default color mode option YCbCr(4:4:4) to be consistent with the WDTV. I suspect that what this setting does is force the blu-ray player to up-sample the YbCbCr(4:2:0) data on DVD's and BD's to YCbCr(4:4:4) before spitting it out on HDMI. I "think" this is OK because the G20/G25 would have had to do that up-sampling anyways in order to convert to the native RGB it needs to drive the panel.
Using YCbCr(4:2:2) would probably be OK too - the BD85 would probably up-sample YCbCr(4:2:0) to YCbCr(4:2:2) and output that for the G20 to up-sample to YCbCr(4:4:4) before finally converting to RGB. That's what "Larry" implies here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-780809.html
Basically, I prefer to have my BD85 offload as much work from my G20 as possible because the BD85 is reported to use a really nice video/chroma processor inside. I already know it does a much better job at upscaling DVD's than the G20 hands down.
So at the end of the video chain, my G20 should be seeing YCbCr from both the WDTV and BD85 via the Denon receiver. So what setting to use on the G20 HDMI inputs? Based on everything I've read, including the VT20/VT25 owner's AVS thread, Auto works well with YCbCr input streams so that's what I'm using.
I suspect the "Standard (16-235)" option *might* work although I don't understand how the G20 would know its seeing a YCbCr input and needs to do the up-sampling and conversion to RGB for the internal sub-pixel drivers. I don't think the HDMI specification calls for a colorspace flag that indicates YCbCr vs RGB. There is a color matrix flag but that's for differentiating between ITU-R BT.601 and ITU-R BT.709 colorspaces used by SD and HD content and is important for DVD's upscaled to HD by the player - yet another story!
I'm just now ripping my Dark Knight and Avatar BD's so will be able to test my WDTV settings against theory with some good material (when I get some time
). I don't have any color calibration sources/equipment.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope someone will correct me if I made an error somewhere along the way.