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The Official AVS TiVo "Series4" Premiere topic - Page 61

post #1801 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

I just checked my "Video" options and 1080p was not checked. I have a Sony EX700. The 1080p also has "(24fps, pass-through only)" next to it. I don't know if that means 1080p/60 is not supported. I then ran the video test. The result is now ALL boxes are checked. I can't speculate why it wasn't checked before, but I have changed cables. I also don't have a native mode on the TiVo that I could find. I seem to remember setting 1080i at one time to fix the output at 1080i before I got my cable card. No conclusions, but I would run the video test again.
BTW, the TiVo feeds a Yamaha AVR set to "Pass-Through".

Hi Joe, I just ran the video test again and the Tivo still says: 1080p (not supported). The Tivo selects the 1080i format as optimal and there is not option for selecting 1080p.
I did also just play a YouTube 1080p video through the Tivo. It did play, but the Sony TV said it was 1080i formated. It was interesting to see that the Tivo appeared to be sending the full 1920 samples x 1080 lines. I had a very clear picture will high detail. I forgot to mention to Kelson, that the Tivo tech did say that the Tivo would output the full 1920 x 1080 quality only if the programming material was 1080p. Also my Tivo is a Premiere 4 and my TV is a Sony KDS-50A2020.

Thanks
James
post #1802 of 3301
As far as I know HDTV is not transmitted in 1080p. It is only in 1080i and 720p. Therefore there is not really any advantage to the 1080p setting.
post #1803 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by duanew View Post

As far as I know HDTV is not transmitted in 1080p. It is only in 1080i and 720p. Therefore there is not really any advantage to the 1080p setting.

Non-broadcast streaming can be done in 1080p if your internet is fast enough. It may account for the 1080p/24 message.
post #1804 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by duanew View Post

As far as I know HDTV is not transmitted in 1080p. It is only in 1080i and 720p. Therefore there is not really any advantage to the 1080p setting.

Hi duanew

I agree, no 1080p HDTV, but, Amazon and YouTube do have 1080P available. Possibly the other video on demand providers also. Tivo does advertise full 1080p capability for the new Premiere 4 DVR. My new Tivo Premiere 4, HDMI interface, when playing 1080p YouTube programming will only send 1080i to the TV. Running the Tivo video scan indicates that 1080p is not supported.

The more important issue is the video quality per scan line. Is it full 1080i HD or anamorphic 1080i HD, ie, based on 1920 samples or 1440 samples. Both are displayed in 1920 x 1080 pixels on a native 1920 x 1080 display. It's just that the 1440 sample quality output has less picture quality. Kelson responded to one of my posts saying that he sees no difference in picture quality between OTA input to TV vs OTA input to Tivo. I have no way of making that kind of an apples to apples comparison. My Tivo is using a M-card; my TV does not provide for a cablecard. When I view good quality 1080i HDTV straight from the cable to the TV, the picture has outstanding quality with lots of fine detail. I don't see that when viewing cable to Tivo. Maybe both my Premiere 4s are defective and should be sent back to Tivo.........for a refund.

Thanks
James
post #1805 of 3301
^^^^

I don't see any possible advantage for altering a digital transport stream for recording purposes ... all it would do is create more work for the DVR with minimal recovery of drive space.

I suspect you may be cross-converting (1080i -> 720p) at output. As Kelson suggested, make sure all of your video output resolutions are checked (480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p)

Then again, I don't know what the current status of the ICT is for "broadcast" a/o "cable" sources. YMMV ...
post #1806 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

I'm not wanting to argue, just trying to understand why I'm seeing some reduction in picture quality. My display is a 50" Sony so any image degradation would be visible. For what's is worth, I did not see this degradation when using my older Sony DVRs.
I want to keep the Tivos, so can you point me in any direction to start troubleshooting?

 

The Sony DVR's can't be topped for PQ, IMO. I learned a long time ago not to ever even expect that (most standalone tuners from the last, few years' tuner's PQ isn't even as good as my TiVo HD's).

 

The only thing that compares in standalone DVR's are the old LG and Zenith. After retiring the Sony and using my TiVo HD for a few months, I adapted OK to the very slight hit on PQ. 

 

It really wasn't that big of a difference. I noticed it most on 480i channels, but even there, it's not much. It's just a tad on HD. But I suppose it's possible that the Premiere's PQ isn't as good as the HD's (never saw it). 

post #1807 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

... I have used the Tivo settings option to scan my TV for video modes. The Tivo find all possible modes except my Sony TV's native mode which is 1920 x 1080p. The Tivo says that 1080p is not supported, so I can't set up the Tivo for 1080p. This should not degrade picture quality. In the case of downloaded 1080p programming from Amazon or YouTube, I'm not sure what the Tivo would do.

I have 3 Premier XL's. The primary TiVo is connected to my (now 10yr old) Mits 65" RPTV. Great picture, but no 1080p support. The second TiVo is connected to a (3yr old) Mits LT-46246 lcd in the bedroom. That TV supports 1080p. The third Tivo is connected to a Sharp LC-26GD4U (8 yrs old) in another room. No 1080p there.

I checked the TiVo video settings with the Mits in the bedroom after seeing these posts. Left to its own the TiVo chooses to send the TV 1080i, which is how I have been using it. It has been my understanding the the TV converts any 1080i input to 1080p before display. I always figured that the conversion was best performed in the $1800 TV than in the $200 DVR. But I could be wrong.

I ran the TiVo "video test" this morning. The results (with the Mits in the bedroom) are shown in the pictures below...







So it looks to me like the TiVo would send 1080p to the TV if I forced it to. However when I run the "auto setup" again, the TiVo once again chooses to send 1080i.
post #1808 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

I have 3 Premier XL's. The primary TiVo is connected to my (now 10yr old) Mits 65" RPTV. Great picture, but no 1080p support. The second TiVo is connected to a (3yr old) Mits LT-46246 lcd in the bedroom. That TV supports 1080p. The third Tivo is connected to a Sharp LC-26GD4U (8 yrs old) in another room. No 1080p there.
So it looks to me like the TiVo would send 1080p to the TV if I forced it to. However when I run the "auto setup" again, the TiVo once again chooses to send 1080i.

Your results are the same as mine. I don't need the TiVo to send 1080p since any streaming would be done by my BD player. At one time I had a 15Mbs internet feed and was able to get, from the BD, HD from Amazon, but have 24 converted to 60. Anyhow, my 3Mbs internet feed doesn't support 1080 and I didn't even add the TiVo to my Amazon account. This has saved me some money.

I have never heard of a TV that uses a scalar chip that gives you the option to change 1080p to 1080i. My cable signal looks the same under all conditions if the content is the same. Good enough for me. But I haven't been lucky enough to have OTA in 35 years.
post #1809 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

Your results are the same as mine. I don't need the TiVo to send 1080p since any streaming would be done by my BD player. At one time I had a 15Mbs internet feed and was able to get, from the BD, HD from Amazon, but have 24 converted to 60. Anyhow, my 3Mbs internet feed doesn't support 1080 and I didn't even add the TiVo to my Amazon account. This has saved me some money.
I have never heard of a TV that uses a scalar chip that gives you the option to change 1080p to 1080i. My cable signal looks the same under all conditions if the content is the same. Good enough for me. But I haven't been lucky enough to have OTA in 35 years.

The way I understand it, no special chip is required...

2. Why 1080p is theoretically better than 1080i

1080i, the former king of the HDTV hill, actually boasts an identical 1,920x1,080 resolution but conveys the images in an interlaced format (the i in 1080i). In a tube-based television, otherwise known as a CRT, 1080i sources get "painted" on the screen sequentially: the odd-numbered lines of resolution appear on your screen first, followed by the even-numbered lines--all within 1/30 of a second. Progressive-scan formats such as 480p, 720p, and 1080p convey all of the lines of resolution sequentially in a single pass, which makes for a smoother, cleaner image, especially with sports and other motion-intensive content. As opposed to tubes, microdisplays (DLP, LCoS, and LCD rear-projection) and other fixed-pixel TVs, including plasma and LCD flat-panel, are inherently progressive in nature, so when the incoming source is interlaced, as 1080i is, they convert it to progressive scan for display.


That's the way I've always understood it to be.

Source: http://reviews.cnet.com/1080i-vs-1080p-hdtv/
post #1810 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

Hi Kelson, thanks for the response. So, your saying that in 1080i mode, the Tivo sends out 1920 samples rather than 1440 samples stretched out to 1920 pixels? In either case you would have 1920 x 1080 pixels.
I'm not wanting to argue, just trying to understand why I'm seeing some reduction in picture quality. My display is a 50" Sony so any image degradation would be visible. For what's is worth, I did not see this degradation when using my older Sony DVRs.
I want to keep the Tivos, so can you point me in any direction to start troubleshooting?
Thanks Again
James

I've not seen this issue with my Premiers. When running the resolution pattern it is showing much higher than 1440.
post #1811 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

I have 3 Premier XL's. The primary TiVo is connected to my (now 10yr old) Mits 65" RPTV. Great picture, but no 1080p support. The second TiVo is connected to a (3yr old) Mits LT-46246 lcd in the bedroom. That TV supports 1080p. The third Tivo is connected to a Sharp LC-26GD4U (8 yrs old) in another room. No 1080p there.
I checked the TiVo video settings with the Mits in the bedroom after seeing these posts. Left to its own the TiVo chooses to send the TV 1080i, which is how I have been using it. It has been my understanding the the TV converts any 1080i input to 1080p before display. I always figured that the conversion was best performed in the $1800 TV than in the $200 DVR. But I could be wrong.
I ran the TiVo "video test" this morning. The results (with the Mits in the bedroom) are shown in the pictures below...



So it looks to me like the TiVo would send 1080p to the TV if I forced it to. However when I run the "auto setup" again, the TiVo once again chooses to send 1080i.

The TiVo Premieres cannot scale to 1080P. It can only pass-through 1080P and that is limited to 1080P24. Most of the content I watch from Amazon is in 1080P24. That is the advantage of watching Amazon content on TiVo Premieres. Other devices only stream Amazon content and they are limited to 720P from Amazon. The TiVo Premiere only downloads Amazon content and that downloaded content can be in 1080P24 or even 1080i. Both exceed the quality of the streaming only devices which are limited to 720P. Although the only caveat with the TiVo Premieres is that they cannot play they Amazon Prime content. But any content from Amazon that is rented or purchased can be played on the TiVo Premiere. Most of the content I watch from Amazon are TV shows and most of them that I watch are in 1080P24 and DD 5.1.
post #1812 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

When I view good quality 1080i HDTV straight from the cable to the TV, the picture has outstanding quality with lots of fine detail. I don't see that when viewing cable to Tivo. Maybe both my Premiere 4s are defective and should be sent back to Tivo.........for a refund.
When I view local HD channels on clear QAM straight into my 1080p Panny plasma, they look exactly the same as output to the TV via HDMI from my Tivo Elite and HD. Your TV is either not reporting EDID capability correctly via HDMI, or the Tivo video output is not set correctly, or the TV is not handling the signal correctly. It is not a Tivo issue, in other words - have you tried using component cables?

My Tivo Elite is set to only output 1080i and p, therefore all cable channels are scaled to 1080i and any p video (streamed or via video transfers from my PC) is shown as p. I can't see a noticeable diff between forced 1080i and native output for 720p channels, and I don't have the screen flicker/delay that comes with switching resolutions.
post #1813 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I've not seen this issue with my Premiers. When running the resolution pattern it is showing much higher than 1440.

I'm just curious what "resolution pattern" you're using to test with. I looked at the THX test video that came on my Premier XL's but I don't see a resolution test there. I was thinking while I was looking for it however, that it would be kind of silly for THX to certify a device that took a 1080x1920 incoming signal, reduced it to 1080x1440, then inflated that back up to 1080x1920 for display?

I can't think of any way to prove that it's not happening though.
post #1814 of 3301
If I remember correctly its from the HDNet test patterns I have.
post #1815 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

^^^^
I don't see any possible advantage for altering a digital transport stream for recording purposes ... all it would do is create more work for the DVR with minimal recovery of drive space.
I suspect you may be cross-converting (1080i -> 720p) at output. As Kelson suggested, make sure all of your video output resolutions are checked (480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p)
Then again, I don't know what the current status of the ICT is for "broadcast" a/o "cable" sources. YMMV ...

Hi HDTVChallenged

It may make sense to alter the stream to store more data on the hard drives. I am no expert, but, it would seem that additional compression would be required to , in the case or the Tivo Premiere 4, store 75 hours of HDTV on a 500 GB drive. I know the Sony DVRs can't do that. But, again, I'm no expert. What would be the file size for 1 hour of HDTV, 1920 x 1080i, 24 FPS, 3 colors, 8 bits/color???

I am unable to check all the video output resolutions on my Tivo. I can only check: 480i 480p 720p 1080i. The 1080p option is not available to check. The Premiere 4 says that "1080p (not supported)". ( I have 2 new Tivos and they both say the same thing.) The Tivo defaults to 1080i and the Sony TV confirms that it is receiving 1080I data over the HDMI interface. My Sony TV upconverts all formats to 1920 x 1080p for it's native display........or that's how I understand it.

Thanks
James
post #1816 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

Hi HDTVChallenged
It may make sense to alter the stream to store more data on the hard drives. I am no expert, but, it would seem that additional compression would be required to , in the case or the Tivo Premiere 4, store 75 hours of HDTV on a 500 GB drive. I know the Sony DVRs can't do that. But, again, I'm no expert. Thanks
James

Maybe they feel everyone watches Fox and ABC?
post #1817 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

The Sony DVR's can't be topped for PQ, IMO. I learned a long time ago not to ever even expect that (most standalone tuners from the last, few years' tuner's PQ isn't even as good as my TiVo HD's).

The only thing that compares in standalone DVR's are the old LG and Zenith. After retiring the Sony and using my TiVo HD for a few months, I adapted OK to the very slight hit on PQ. 

It really wasn't that big of a difference. I noticed it most on 480i channels, but even there, it's not much. It's just a tad on HD. But I suppose it's possible that the Premiere's PQ isn't as good as the HD's (never saw it). 

Hello Rammitinski

If my wife and I keep the Tivos then we will probably just watch the clear QAM HDVT straight from the TV's tuner and only watch recorded progamming from the Tivo. (did not want to split the signal prior to the Tivo because, I assume, the signal is split 2 times for the 4 receivers in the Tivo) I sure we will adapt in time also.

Thanks
James
post #1818 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

Hello Rammitinski
If my wife and I keep the Tivos then we will probably just watch the clear QAM HDVT straight from the TV's tuner and only watch recorded progamming from the Tivo. (did not want to split the signal prior to the Tivo because, I assume, the signal is split 2 times for the 4 receivers in the Tivo) I sure we will adapt in time also.
Thanks
James
If you are worried about signal loss from passive splitters, this item from Radio Shack works well. I have several.

http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=1%20to%204%20splitter&origkw=1+to+4+splitter&sr=1

The CM 3414 does the same thing, but haven't used one. CM also has a 1 to 2 active splitter.
post #1819 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

I have 3 Premier XL's. The primary TiVo is connected to my (now 10yr old) Mits 65" RPTV. Great picture, but no 1080p support. The second TiVo is connected to a (3yr old) Mits LT-46246 lcd in the bedroom. That TV supports 1080p. The third Tivo is connected to a Sharp LC-26GD4U (8 yrs old) in another room. No 1080p there.
I checked the TiVo video settings with the Mits in the bedroom after seeing these posts. Left to its own the TiVo chooses to send the TV 1080i, which is how I have been using it. It has been my understanding the the TV converts any 1080i input to 1080p before display. I always figured that the conversion was best performed in the $1800 TV than in the $200 DVR. But I could be wrong.
I ran the TiVo "video test" this morning. The results (with the Mits in the bedroom) are shown in the pictures below...



So it looks to me like the TiVo would send 1080p to the TV if I forced it to. However when I run the "auto setup" again, the TiVo once again chooses to send 1080i.

Hi WS65711

Thanks for the pics. It's interesting that my Tivo Premiere 4 video settings window does not have the Video Smoothing option. My output format screen says '1080p (not supported)" and does not give me the option to select it.
I did download a YouTube 1080P video. When played, the Sony TV said that The Tivo output was 1080I, which is what the Tivo had set for the optimal output. What was interesting was that the picture quality was OUTSTANDING and looked like full HD 1920 samples per line. The picture quality should not change 1080i vs 1080p. This agrees with what Tivo tech support said and that is for the Tivo Premiere 4, 1080i programming gives you 1440 x 1080i, 1080p programming gives you 1920 x 1080p. I just don't believe that yet. If it really true. I may sent the unit back for a refund.

Thanks
James
post #1820 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I've not seen this issue with my Premiers. When running the resolution pattern it is showing much higher than 1440.

Hi aaronwt

I think my issue may the compression. The Tivo may compress 1080i to anamorphic HD (1440 x 1080) when stored to disk, but, when played back you would see 1920 x 1080i but adegradation in PQ. This agrees with what the Tivo tech suppot said. in the Tivo 1080i is actually 1440 x 1080, 1080p is actually 1920 x 1080p. The compressing is Tivo doing the compressing on 1080i HDTV. Any 1080p programming is passed thru to the TV. Again, just a guess. This compression may acount for the fact that the Tivo can store 75 hours of HDTV in 500 GB. The ratio 1440/1920 is similar to the storage capacity between the Song DVR and the Tivo. I had read that the Sony output was 1920 x 1080i and could only store 60 hours of HDTV in 500 GB.

Thanks
James
post #1821 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

When I view local HD channels on clear QAM straight into my 1080p Panny plasma, they look exactly the same as output to the TV via HDMI from my Tivo Elite and HD. Your TV is either not reporting EDID capability correctly via HDMI, or the Tivo video output is not set correctly, or the TV is not handling the signal correctly. It is not a Tivo issue, in other words - have you tried using component cables?
My Tivo Elite is set to only output 1080i and p, therefore all cable channels are scaled to 1080i and any p video (streamed or via video transfers from my PC) is shown as p. I can't see a noticeable diff between forced 1080i and native output for 720p channels, and I don't have the screen flicker/delay that comes with switching resolutions.

Hi aaronwt

Your response is similar to many other forum members. The common thread it that those forum members that have great 1080i PQ and a 1080p option are not using the Tivo Premiere 4, with it's 4 receivers. Is this true?

Thanks
James
Edited by jebiggers - 11/25/12 at 9:53am
post #1822 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

Maybe they feel everyone watches Fox and ABC?

:-)

Thanks
James
post #1823 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

If you are worried about signal loss from passive splitters, this item from Radio Shack works well. I have several.
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=1%20to%204%20splitter&origkw=1+to+4+splitter&sr=1
The CM 3414 does the same thing, but haven't used one. CM also has a 1 to 2 active splitter.

Hi Joe

If we keep the Tivos (it may be hard to pry the Tivo out of my wife's hands) then I will take your advice.

Thanks
James
Edited by jebiggers - 11/25/12 at 10:51am
post #1824 of 3301
Thanks to every one for some GREAT comments. I need to collect my thoughts and have another round of Q&A with Tivo support. Again, my concern is not so much 1080i vs 1080p but the possibility of lossy compression with 1080i HDTV on the 4 receiver, Premiere 4 Tivo. Certainly, some further compression has to take place within the Tivo to store 75 hours of 1920 x 1080i HDTV in 500GB..........or am I wrong.

Sincerely
James
Edited by jebiggers - 11/25/12 at 10:52am
post #1825 of 3301
I used TiVo for over a decade and over the years compared its image (often A/B) to various other receivers. The latest a HTPC I'm now using for WMC. Others include Dish, DirecTV and Comcast receivers and when viewing 1080i sources the image was virtually the same. The only possible difference I would notice is dynamic contrast might be a little higher on some of the other receivers. Now I will say TiVo doesn't upscale very well... SD sources (such as streaming services at low bit rates) look much worse than other streamers upscaled.
post #1826 of 3301
I agree, for faster channel changes I use to have my output set at 1080i fixed but noticed 480i SD channels looked quite poor(obvious interlace lines in scenes with motion) 720p looked OK upscaled to 1080i but now I just use native and put up with the slower channel scan.
post #1827 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I used TiVo for over a decade and over the years compared its image (often A/B) to various other receivers. The latest a HTPC I'm now using for WMC. Others include Dish, DirecTV and Comcast receivers and when viewing 1080i sources the image was virtually the same. The only possible difference I would notice is dynamic contrast might be a little higher on some of the other receivers. Now I will say TiVo doesn't upscale very well... SD sources (such as streaming services at low bit rates) look much worse than other streamers upscaled.

Hi Charles

I PQ issue is with the loss of fine detail, for example, watching good HDTV 1080i thru the TV tuner, no Tivo in the loop, I see all the wringles/blemishes in closeups of the face. Watching the same 1080i HDTV program thru the Tivo, that kind of fine detail is not there. It's like what you would expect to see if lossy compression was used.

Thanks
James
post #1828 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

I agree, for faster channel changes I use to have my output set at 1080i fixed but noticed 480i SD channels looked quite poor(obvious interlace lines in scenes with motion) 720p looked OK upscaled to 1080i but now I just use native and put up with the slower channel scan.

Hi jjeff

I only have the 1080i output format selected/checked. I'll go in a check all the formats, 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i, and see if that makes a difference.

Thanks
James
post #1829 of 3301
Recording capacity on the standard Premiere is 46 HD hours, while the XL offers 156 HD hours. Both models officially support a 1TB external drive to add another 144 HD hours. DVRUpgrade.com and Weaknees.com also offer pre-upgraded TiVo Premiere DVRs with 317 HD hours. There are no quality settings to vary record capacity on digital channels; all digital content is saved to the hard drive as is, bit-for-bit identical to the original broadcast. Quality on live and recorded HDTV is identical.

The paragraph above is taken from Post #1 of this thread. It's the 5th paragraph. I don't know the source of the original information. Maybe forum member "bfdtv" will chime in at some point....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1232191/the-official-avs-tivo-series4-premiere-topic#post_18246613
post #1830 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

I PQ issue is with the loss of fine detail, for example, watching good HDTV 1080i thru the TV tuner, no Tivo in the loop, I see all the wringles/blemishes in closeups of the face. Watching the same 1080i HDTV program thru the Tivo, that kind of fine detail is not there.

Two possible causes (I can think of off the top of my head)...

  • The TV's inputs aren't calibrated the same (such as the sharpness setting).
  • The TiVo is defective.

Swap TiVos and if you find the same result... go with something else... it's easy. smile.gif In most cases differences are contrast related (one looks more 3Dish, pops, etc). The detail is actually the same one just appears more so since it's enhanced.
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