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The Official AVS TiVo "Series4" Premiere topic - Page 62

post #1831 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

all digital content is saved to the hard drive as is, bit-for-bit identical to the original broadcast. Quality on live and recorded HDTV is identical.

Hi WS65711

I would think that some compression would have to be made to store as much HDTV as Tivo is storing. In my case 75 hours of HDTV in 500GB. How do you do that without some compression of the digital streams?

When you select the Live TV button on the Tivo, are you actually watching straight from the Tivo receiver or are you actually picking off what was recorded on the hard drive? I may be wrong, but on the Sony DVR, we never watched straight from the tuner, but watched from the hard drive with a little time delay.

Thanks
James
post #1832 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Two possible causes (I can think of off the top of my head)...
  • The TV's inputs aren't calibrated the same (such as the sharpness setting).
  • The TiVo is defective.
Swap TiVos and if you find the same result... go with something else... it's easy. smile.gif In most cases differences are contrast related (one looks more 3Dish, pops, etc). The detail is actually the same one just appears more so since it's enhanced.

Thanks Charles, I will do that.
James
post #1833 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

Hi WS65711
I would think that some compression would have to be made to store as much HDTV as Tivo is storing. In my case 75 hours of HDTV in 500GB. How do you do that without some compression of the digital streams?
When you select the Live TV button on the Tivo, are you actually watching straight from the Tivo receiver or are you actually picking off what was recorded on the hard drive? I may be wrong, but on the Sony DVR, we never watched straight from the tuner, but watched from the hard drive with a little time delay.
Thanks
James

James, we all have to live with the fact that our devices (TiVo & DHG) are very classy devices and share one thing in common (at least): they both show remaining space not consumed space and show a percentage only. Some other recorders are just the opposite. I have one of the 45-46 hour units. The desktop does show file size, so I will record two shows tonight, compare the size against remaining space on the box and see if any conclusions can be made. One is ABC and one is CBS. I have moved one hour of 1080i to the PC and it used about 8Gb, exactly what I expected based on other units but I wasn't paying close attention at the time.

If we trusted marketing data there would be a memory-pro slot on the back of my DHG. And isn't MPEG-2 already compressed and lossy? After my cable feed adds a 1080i and 720p onto one main channel I'm lucky my picture doesn't look like something from the 50's.

BTW, I feel anytime you can "pause live TV" you are watching a delayed picture.
Edited by JoeKustra - 11/25/12 at 1:00pm
post #1834 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

I would think that some compression would have to be made to store as much HDTV as Tivo is storing. In my case 75 hours of HDTV in 500GB. How do you do that without some compression of the digital streams?
When you select the Live TV button on the Tivo, are you actually watching straight from the Tivo receiver or are you actually picking off what was recorded on the hard drive?

You can speculate all you want but it doesn't change the facts. Anyone have last week's Survivor recorded on a TiVo? My copy on WMC is 7,387,480,064 bytes (1:02:58) and the station has your typical 2 sub-channels and averages roughly 15.8 Mbps (for football). And you are never viewing live TV... it is always buffered.

If you are looking for answers regarding recordings and whatnot they have been covered at TiVo's forum for years.
post #1835 of 3301
Again, thanks to everyone for your help. I think my question has been answered.

James
post #1836 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

Hi WS65711
Thanks for the pics. It's interesting that my Tivo Premiere 4 video settings window does not have the Video Smoothing option. My output format screen says '1080p (not supported)" and does not give me the option to select it.
I did download a YouTube 1080P video. When played, the Sony TV said that The Tivo output was 1080I, which is what the Tivo had set for the optimal output. What was interesting was that the picture quality was OUTSTANDING and looked like full HD 1920 samples per line. The picture quality should not change 1080i vs 1080p. This agrees with what Tivo tech support said and that is for the Tivo Premiere 4, 1080i programming gives you 1440 x 1080i, 1080p programming gives you 1920 x 1080p. I just don't believe that yet. If it really true. I may sent the unit back for a refund.
Thanks
James

This has nothing to do with 1440x1080i or 1920x1080P. You need to select "test formats" then it will go through each resolution and you select that you are able to see it. When you get to 1080P24 and you are able to see the test screen, the TiVo will then have 1080P24 checked as a resolution you can view. The TiVo should get the info from the TV over the HDMI connection but sometimes this does not happen. This is the case with one of my TVs even though it has no issue with 1080P60 or 1080P24. I just go through the procedure I just mentioned during initial setup, then I have no issue playing back 1080P24 content from the TiVo Premiere.

And again, the TiVo can only pass through 1080P24. Otherwise it can scale it to a 1080i or lower resolution. But it cannot scale anything to 1080P24. And if 1080P24 is not checked in the video format section, then the highest resolution that the TiVo will output is 1080i. If that resolution is checked. If only 720P is checked then it will not output at 1080i.

This has always been the case with the TiVo Premiere boxes since they launched in March 2010.
Edited by aaronwt - 11/25/12 at 5:26pm
post #1837 of 3301
Again, thanks for all your comments.

A few things have happened since my last post.

1. I went back to the output format test and reran the test 5 or 6 times in a row. After the last test, the Tivo gave me the 1080p option, 24fps pass-thru. So now this agrees with what most of you are saying. This may indicate a problem talking over the HDMI interface.

2. Charles R indicated that his 1 hour CBS HDTV file was 7,387,480,064 bytes (1:02:58) and JoeKustra indicated 1 hour of 1080i comsumed about 8GB. This certainly supports the Tivo spec of 75 hours of 1080i on a 500GB drive.

3. I had a short _very short_ discussion with my wife about returning the Tivos and either going back to the Sony DVRs or not using a DVR. She quickly reminded me: happy wife, happy life.......so we are keeping the Tivos.

The only issue remaining is the degraded PQ. As many of you have mentioned, a problem may exist in my HDMI cable or the TV setup for the HDMI input. If the Tivos do not perform a lossy compression and record the input bit for bit, as many of you have said, then that's about the only place the problem can be. If I can't fix it then I will have to live with it.

Thanks for all your help
James
Edited by jebiggers - 11/25/12 at 9:23pm
post #1838 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

I think my issue may the compression. The Tivo may compress 1080i to anamorphic HD (1440 x 1080) when stored to disk, but, when played back you would see 1920 x 1080i but adegradation in PQ.
Hi, I thought I had made it clear above. When recording digital source, the TiVo is capturing the transport stream exactly as it is being broadcast and simply spooling it to the HDD. It is not doing any extra compression or re-scaling or processing of the original transport stream. The information that the TiVo is rescaling 1920 to 1440 is wrong.

The size of an HDTV file is not dependent on the resolution but rather the bitrate of the broadcast. Fox broadcasts at 720p and NBC at 1080i; both encode at ~15Mbps and have 1 hr file sizes of ~5.8GB for the transport stream. Besides a TiVo I have a media-PC with digital tuners that also records the transport stream -- the file sizes for a program recorded on both is approx. equal.
post #1839 of 3301
I have a TiVo Premier 2 years old with Lifetime Service that is making a scratchy noise. Tonight, it stopped getting all channels = black screen. After a power On / Off sequence, it seems to be OK. Tomorrow I will try to lube the fan.

Maybe I should get the XL4 with Lifetime? Lifetime is $399 until tomorrow. Then send this one to WeakKnees to be fixed?

All advice appreciated.
cb
post #1840 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Hi, I thought I had made it clear above. When recording digital source, the TiVo is capturing the transport stream exactly as it is being broadcast and simply spooling it to the HDD. It is not doing any extra compression or re-scaling or processing of the original transport stream. The information that the TiVo is rescaling 1920 to 1440 is wrong.
The size of an HDTV file is not dependent on the resolution but rather the bitrate of the broadcast. Fox broadcasts at 720p and NBC at 1080i; both encode at ~15Mbps and have 1 hr file sizes of ~5.8GB for the transport stream. Besides a TiVo I have a media-PC with digital tuners that also records the transport stream -- the file sizes for a program recorded on both is approx. equal.

And as I said above, thanks for your input.

James
post #1841 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

If I can't fix it then I will have to live with it.

 

I would at least give component a try.


Edited by Rammitinski - 11/26/12 at 1:21am
post #1842 of 3301
I said that before, but he's picking and choosing what to try. Component cables are an obvious choice here if he thinks HDMI looks worse than the native source.

James, you can believe what you want but what we're telling you is that Tivo is NOT compressing or altering the source program in any way, either stored or displayed. What you see with the Tivo is the same mpeg2 transport stream that you get with a cable run into the back of your TV directly; i.e. if it's a 1080i program it's a full 1080i not 1440x1080.

You may have an HDMI issue between TV and Tivo, so that's why we say to try component cables instead.
post #1843 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by abredt View Post

I have a TiVo Premier 2 years old with Lifetime Service that is making a scratchy noise. Tonight, it stopped getting all channels = black screen. After a power On / Off sequence, it seems to be OK. Tomorrow I will try to lube the fan.
Maybe I should get the XL4 with Lifetime? Lifetime is $399 until tomorrow. Then send this one to WeakKnees to be fixed?
All advice appreciated.
cb
Replacing the fan is cheap and trivial, once you find the right one. There's a thread on this over at TCF but I'm too lazy to search for it. But the noise could be the drive going out, you'd have to pull the cover to see what's making it. Which is again, a relatively cheap fix (less than $100) and will give you much more capacity than a stock Premiere.
post #1844 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

And as I said above, thanks for your input.
James

More input. ABC, 1 hour, 3,794k file size. CBS, 1 hour, 7,426k file size. However, since I have a cable card and HD service, all I see is 1080i. Variations can be caused by SD or DD2.0 commercials. All data as shown by the TiVo Desktop after transfer to laptop. BTW, the CBS number indicates 43.1 hours on a 320Gb drive. That's close enough and not a surprize since my BV-980H and TViX (M6620N) showed about the same size with their .ts files. I guess I could look for a non-HD channel and see how it compares, but it's not high on my list of things to do.
Joe
post #1845 of 3301
I've been using TiVos for eleven years now. I've been using HD capable TiVos for 8.5 years starting with the DirecTV HD TiVo back in 2004.The HD TiVos have always recorded the HD stream as it is and played it back the same as if you were watching live.
post #1846 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I've been using TiVos for eleven years now. I've been using HD capable TiVos for 8.5 years starting with the DirecTV HD TiVo back in 2004.The HD TiVos have always recorded the HD stream as it is and played it back the same as if you were watching live.

I totally agree. The question was on HDD size vs. hours of storage. The TiVo Desktop let me look at the titles on TiVo.
post #1847 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

I would at least give component a try.

Hi Rammitinski

I will. If component fixes the problem that will confirm a HDMI issue.

Thanks
James
Edited by jebiggers - 11/26/12 at 8:58am
post #1848 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by abredt View Post

I have a TiVo Premier 2 years old with Lifetime Service that is making a scratchy noise. Tonight, it stopped getting all channels = black screen. After a power On / Off sequence, it seems to be OK. Tomorrow I will try to lube the fan.
Maybe I should get the XL4 with Lifetime? Lifetime is $399 until tomorrow. Then send this one to WeakKnees to be fixed?
All advice appreciated.
cb

Where do you get the lifetime for $399 unless it's a 2nd unit? TiVo just told me $499!
post #1849 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

I said that before, but he's picking and choosing what to try. Component cables are an obvious choice here if he thinks HDMI looks worse than the native source.
James, you can believe what you want but what we're telling you is that Tivo is NOT compressing or altering the source program in any way, either stored or displayed. What you see with the Tivo is the same mpeg2 transport stream that you get with a cable run into the back of your TV directly; i.e. if it's a 1080i program it's a full 1080i not 1440x1080.
You may have an HDMI issue between TV and Tivo, so that's why we say to try component cables instead.

Hi slowbiscuit

I certainly will try the component cables.

It's not that I only believe what I want to believe, and please don't take this the wrong way, it's more, from the people giving me the answers, who should I believe. These are the first Tivos I've ever owned and my first time in the Tivo Forum. I am a technical person but I know very little about broadcast TV and certainly no idea what PQ to expect from a Tivo. My first tech questions went to Tivo tech support and that person gave me the Tivo 1080i is 1440 x 1080 picture quality answer. From the answers I've received from the forum members here......Tivo tech support is wrong. It will take a while for me to get a feel for which forum members are the real tech experts and which are not, although I do value everybody's input, tech expert or not. I have learned lots so far from the answers every one of you have given me. I know that once I am more knowledgeable with Tivo, I will try to support other newbies when I can even though I am not a tech expert. I think if you read all my posts, you can see that I'm am taking what you say to heart and channeling my troubleshooting in that direction. Know that I know that I'm keeping the Tivos. my troubleshooting will be ramped up.
I agree that my problem is HDMI related; cables or setup, as my 2 Tivos give the same indication. Also, as I stated in an earlier post, it took multiple tries to get the Tivo to enable the 1080p option over the HDMI line............A clear indication of a HDMI interface issue.

Thanks
James
Edited by jebiggers - 11/26/12 at 8:59am
post #1850 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

More input. ABC, 1 hour, 3,794k file size. CBS, 1 hour, 7,426k file size. However, since I have a cable card and HD service, all I see is 1080i. Variations can be caused by SD or DD2.0 commercials. All data as shown by the TiVo Desktop after transfer to laptop. BTW, the CBS number indicates 43.1 hours on a 320Gb drive. That's close enough and not a surprize since my BV-980H and TViX (M6620N) showed about the same size with their .ts files. I guess I could look for a non-HD channel and see how it compares, but it's not high on my list of things to do.
Joe

Hi Joe

Thanks for the data....I'm an old retired electrical engineer so I love lots of data! I think you have more than answered my question, so, don't feel like you need to go and do any more work on my behalf. My questions about file size were from the stand point of troubleshooting the PQ issue. The thought was that some lossy compression was taking place in the Tivo and you may be able to infer that from file size. But, it is the group's consensus that that does not happen in the Tivo.

Thanks
James
Edited by jebiggers - 11/26/12 at 9:02am
post #1851 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

Hi Joe
Thanks for the data....I'm an old retired electrical engineer so I love lots of data! I think you have more than answered my question, so, don't feel like you need to go and do any more work on my behalf. My questions about file size were from the stand point of troubleshooting the PQ issue. The thought was that some lossy compression was taking place in the Tivo and you may be able to infer that from file size. But, it is the group's consensus that that does not happen in the Tivo.
Thanks
James
You're welcome James. I am an old retired software engineer and didn't really have time to make A/V a nice hobby until about ten years ago. I used to work on radar systems until I figured out computers are usually in a nice warm computer room. I bought my TiVo only 6 months ago and that was before TVGOS made it known that it was going to heaven.

As aaronwt has said, good data in gives you good data out. This is digital and there is no "maybe" involved. Good luck with your PQ issue.
Joe
post #1852 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by bschift View Post

Where do you get the lifetime for $399 unless it's a 2nd unit? TiVo just told me $499!

I already have another one so it's the Multi-service discount.
cb
post #1853 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

You're welcome James. I am an old retired software engineer and didn't really have time to make A/V a nice hobby until about ten years ago. I used to work on radar systems until I figured out computers are usually in a nice warm computer room. I bought my TiVo only 6 months ago and that was before TVGOS made it known that it was going to heaven.
As aaronwt has said, good data in gives you good data out. This is digital and there is no "maybe" involved. Good luck with your PQ issue.
Joe

Hi Joe

Well it's a small world. I started my engineering career at the USAF Radar Laboratory at Wright Patterson AFB. We were doing exploratory research developing a bistatic airborne radar system. Fun work!

Thanks again for all your help.
James
post #1854 of 3301
Hi Folks,
Another immigrant from the Sony DHG-HDD world reporting for duty. I picked up 2 Premiere XL at Best Buy, prior to Black Friday. The price was better than TiVo's Black Friday price biggrin.gif With this move, I have increased my storage space by 60% over two HDD500s and a HDD250. The DVRs are used to record OTA HD shows, etc. Cable is in the house, but it is controlled by my better half.smile.gif

All of my DVRs are connected using component video via a "Audio Authority" component switch. The TiVo is in the same rack with a HDD250 and a HDD500. I didn't see any PQ issues during testing over the last couple of days.. I have a Sony XBR-65HX929 that has enough HDMI inputs so I could connect the DVRs directly, bypassing the switch. My old TV, another Sony (KP-57XBR10W) only had a component or RGBHV input. No ATSC tuner.rolleyes.gif

I will be using a Sony AX1400 remote to control the TiVo. The AX1400 is programmable via a PC. In its database, it had codes from most of the buttons found on the TiVo remote. It had a Power On/Off code, it did not work. There was no code for a Stop Button. I'm a retired software engineer and Navy ETR, so I get to do a little tinkering on the PC.wink.gif

Carl
post #1855 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDTV1999 View Post

Hi Folks,
Another immigrant from the Sony DHG-HDD world . . .

Courtesy of Tom Petty...

[Chorus:]
You don't have to live like a refugee
(Don't have to live like a refugee)
No baby you don't have to live like a refugee
(Dont have to live like a refugee)


biggrin.gif
post #1856 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

Courtesy of Tom Petty...
[Chorus:]
You don't have to live like a refugee
(Don't have to live like a refugee)
No baby you don't have to live like a refugee
(Dont have to live like a refugee)

biggrin.gif

This is really getting to be a large wake.
post #1857 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

I've been looking at getting a Tivo for several months now. I've read a lot about them here and at other forums and IMO, if you want to stream, get a Roku player or some other inexpensive box. Tivos are great dvrs, but mediocre streamers.

I beg to differ. tivo is the only device that streams 1080p/24 from netflix. Amazon VODs are also in 1080p/24 as well although are downloaded to the device. You can watch before its downloaded.

Yes although tivo may not have all the services of roku, the quality is much better.

Additionally I've done extensive testing between the roku XS v a Sony BD player with Crackle, Vudu and Amazon prime. The Sony Bd Player picture quality was significantly sharper with better colors than the Roku for all these streaming services.
post #1858 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDTV1999 View Post

Hi Folks,
Another immigrant from the Sony DHG-HDD world reporting for duty.

Looks like we're really takin' over dis joint! cool.gif

post #1859 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDTV1999 View Post

Hi Folks,
................. Cable is in the house, but it is controlled by my better half.smile.gif
Carl

Be careful, My wife got her hands on one of my Tivos and won't let go. Now it's lost to me forever.

James
post #1860 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebiggers View Post

Hi slowbiscuit
I certainly will try the component cables.

One more (easy to overlook) thing to check: Make sure you have the equivalent of "1 to 1" mapping enabled on your display's HDMI input. An "overscan" mode would would certainly produce what you appear to be seeing.
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