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The Official AVS TiVo "Series4" Premiere topic - Page 85

post #2521 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

That didn't do it for me.. the "Delete Everything" did. But if you were to do that you would lose all the results of your multiple channel scans . . .

Ok, I will move that to number 10,467 on my lists of things to do. First order of business is to solve my antenna problems.
post #2522 of 3301
I realize this question has probably been asked before but this is a very long thread and I've found nothing. What I'm looking for is a software program or way to control one of my Tivos via android phone. I'd like more than just the simulated remote on the phone app. I'd like to be able to select songs/stations from Pandora/Spotify with out looking at my screen. I'd like to see all that info on my phone and control it via wifi.

My plan is to run a volume controlled zone from my receiver to my firepit 100 feet away.
post #2523 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post

So eventually I will be interested to see how you get rid of the “To Be Announced”.

You will only get program guide information for the channels that are in the zip-code keyed database. IOW, "scanned" channels will always be "TBA," unless they were already picked up by the zip-code setup.

Since you can only pick one zip-code, you may need to be creative to find one that includes most of the stations you can receive. In my case, I wound up using a code that's ~30 miles north of my actual location.
post #2524 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by CleatusCat View Post

I realize this question has probably been asked before but this is a very long thread and I've found nothing. What I'm looking for is a software program or way to control one of my Tivos via android phone. I'd like more than just the simulated remote on the phone app. I'd like to be able to select songs/stations from Pandora/Spotify with out looking at my screen. I'd like to see all that info on my phone and control it via wifi.

My plan is to run a volume controlled zone from my receiver to my firepit 100 feet away.
I am using something similar to what you are looking to do, it is called Roomie but it is only for iOS. As far as I know the TiVo will not give you live feedback for their 3rd party apps such as Pandora/Spotify, only for the channel, guide & time elapsed etc. What you need is either a Sonos or AVR that offers that ability, sorry to say. Not to mention, you will need to be on the same wifi signal at your fire pit for this feature to work.
post #2525 of 3301
Darn. Thanks. It looks like I'll just have to fly blind, thumb up/down and memorize moves in order to change stations. Pretty sad Tivo hasn't done more for these. Blackberry was king once...
post #2526 of 3301
Wow, another major plus for TiVo. (This will only be important to a very small number of TiVo users in a situation like mine).

I use TiVo for OTA only.

Having antenna issues; too much to post here and I have posted a little bit of it in the antenna thread etc. Short story: Way too many trees make it difficult to get all the channels I want all the time.

For those of you who may be having trouble “tuning” in all your digital OTA stations like you want them then this could be beneficial to you.

Most of you are aware of the signal strength meter and in many or most cases that is all you need to get the stations you want. Also, most are aware that keeping the SNR high the more solid and reliable the signal will be. Using the “strength meter” and “SNR” together make tuning a little easier (under DVR Diagnostics).

Now this part you may not know: Also under DVR Diagnostics, signal data is accumulated for both tuners at the same time, even when the TiVo is turned off and not in use for very long periods of “time”. Essentially, it will report that data for two channels “forever” unless “a” tuner is needed to change for a recording. This means it can be quite easy to get the data for several hours for two channels at the same time. That is extremely important when the mere “signal strength” and “SNR” are not enough to solve antenna problems.

Weather Conditions, Sunny, Heavy Fog, Rain, and “Monster Trees flapping in the Wind” can easily affect OTA Digital reception. The DVR Diagnostics can help solve many of those problems. Here is what is recorded on those pages for two channels at the same time:

Signal Strength
SNR
RS Uncorrected (signal so bad the TiVo tuner could not fix it)
RS Corrected (by the TiVo tuner)
Time – two of them, found and locked etc. Given in seconds (minutes would work better for me, but at least I can handle the math)

RS Uncorrected and Corrected is vital information well beyond what normal signal strength and SNR can do for you. I am aware that some Sony TV’s have similar “signal quality” information given as well, but only for one channel at a time. And I do not think it can retain that data for very long periods of time? Who is Reed Solomon anyway? Never mind.

If you have RS Uncorrected and Corrected at “0” you have absolute utopia, the signal cannot be any better. Over “time” this becomes harder and harder to do in the real world. The more “time” (hours) you maintain “0” and “0” the closer you will be to “ultimate utopia”. If the RS Uncorrected stays a “0” you should never see “any” picture defects (at least in regard to signal quality). Usually if RS Corrected (TiVo fixes) stays small and RS Uncorrected is “0” you will be a “very happy camper” – you will not see picture defects.

What this means is: you can make both large and very small “micro” adjustments (including tilt) to antenna positioning to yield major improvements in reception that signal strength and SNR data alone cannot provide. This is particularly true in extremely difficult OTA tuning environments.

RS Uncorrected and Corrected tells you what the TiVo tuner is doing with the signal it receives. This is a very close cousin to BER (Google it) a second cousin to MER. Both BER and MER is data you would like to have “at” the antenna but few of us can afford (money) the equipment necessary to get it.

One way to think about this DVR Diagnostic information is like a “poor mans” Digiair Pro ATSC. That product has already gone through three significant updates (complete changes) that I am aware of; so best I can tell this is the latest manual on the latest and current product:

Digiair Pro ATSC English

(sorry Win 8 sux big time) you have to go down the list here and find the manual)

http://www.emitor.se/supp_manuals.htm


Reading the manual can provide more information and/or a pathway to Google for more information.

Now here is one thing the DVR Diagnostic page cannot do for me. I cannot take the TiVo Box to the roof or in the attic, along with the TV Set. That is probably its greatest limitation. So of course I did the opposite, I put the antenna inside the house – no this is not final solution. It is still a project. LOL
Edited by HoustonPerson - 5/30/13 at 5:41am
post #2527 of 3301
Throw a slingbox or Hava on the TiVo and watch it from your phone while on the roof. Or have someone relay the info. When I mounted my antennas in 2004 I had the window open with the volume turned up high on the receiver so I could hear it outside. But my antennas are also mounted on the side of the building.
post #2528 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post

Who is Reed Solomon anyway? Never mind.

Now here is one thing the DVR Diagnostic page cannot do for me. I cannot take the TiVo Box to the roof or in the attic, along with the TV Set. That is probably its greatest limitation. So of course I did the opposite, I put the antenna inside the house – no this is not final solution. It is still a project. LOL

It's who are Reed-Solomon. I never knew that's what the RS stood for.

 

When, years ago, I was trying to aim an antenna and couldn't see the picture, I carried an old Panasonic FM receiver with a signal meter to the antenna. Since I knew an FM station that shared the tower, I simply used it as an aiming point. Worked fine. I still have the receiver and use it to aim my outdoor FM antenna that I can reach from an attic window.

post #2529 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Throw a slingbox or Hava on the TiVo and watch it from your phone while on the roof. Or have someone relay the info. When I mounted my antennas in 2004 I had the window open with the volume turned up high on the receiver so I could hear it outside. But my antennas are also mounted on the side of the building.

Question:

When the TiVo was new a few short months ago, I installed the freebee TiVo IPad app, just to see what it would do etc. It really provided no benefit for us, so I deleted it from the iPad. The less overhead to the network, TiVo, iPad the better, etc.

Do you know if all the DVR Diagnostics are available on the TiVo iPad app? If it is, then that would make it super useful to me to help solve the antenna issues. Just having that information available on a iPad in the attic or on the roof would address my needs 100%.
post #2530 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

It's who are Reed-Solomon. I never knew that's what the RS stood for.

When, years ago, I was trying to aim an antenna and couldn't see the picture, I carried an old Panasonic FM receiver with a signal meter to the antenna. Since I knew an FM station that shared the tower, I simply used it as an aiming point. Worked fine. I still have the receiver and use it to aim my outdoor FM antenna that I can reach from an attic window.

Thanks Joe I never took the time to read it that close - Two people LOL
post #2531 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post

Question:

When the TiVo was new a few short months ago, I installed the freebee TiVo IPad app, just to see what it would do etc. It really provided no benefit for us, so I deleted it from the iPad. The less overhead to the network, TiVo, iPad the better, etc.

Do you know if all the DVR Diagnostics are available on the TiVo iPad app? If it is, then that would make it super useful to me to help solve the antenna issues. Just having that information available on a iPad in the attic or on the roof would address my needs 100%.

ok, I just check with TiVo support, the answer is "no" the DVR diagnostics are not available on the iPad? They answered so quickly, something tells me others have requested the same thing AND it would be a very nice feature to have.
post #2532 of 3301
Reed-Solomon error correction codes are used to rectify errors in data tranmissions. They allow you to receive glitch-free audio/video, even when signal strength is less than ideal, as RS ECC allows the tuner to fix minor errors in the transport stream that would otherwise cause the picture or sound quality to degrade. Reed-Solomon is the same ECC scheme used in data CDs, DVDs, and Blu-ray discs to make it possible to retrieve information from scratched or otherwise damaged optical media.
post #2533 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by lokilarry View Post

I have to tell you, I use the Ipad app exclusively when I'm playing back any recorded shows from my Premiere. It is a lot faster than using the remote to pull up the list of shows directly from the box on the television screen.

Yes, I use my iPad or iPhone for most TiVo tasks No need to lose what you are watching while you check the guide or check the todo list or whatever. Often times it is a lot faster, especially for a search. However, I can see that someone who only gets over the air content has a lot less issues to deal with and the iPad would have limited utility.
post #2534 of 3301
More TiVo crazies; but in a good way, I think?

Today the TiVo grid had “gone wild” when I turned TiVo on this morning.

Some duplicate and triplicate channels. For example; station 13-1 PBS was there as normal with program description but overnight a full set of RF 14’s with 3 subs were also set up with no program data – To Be Announced etc. RF 14 is station 13-1 etc. Also channel 27-1 was actually set up “three” times two with the correct RF and one with the wrong RF (confirmed on the channel list in the turner). Only one of the 27’s, the original, had programs attached to it. There were about a half dozen other anomalies in the grid as well. I do not have a solid reason why it did this? It was like the tuner had some sort of scanning fit during the night and just thought it should have a new grid to match its new self-proclaimed insanity.

So after reviewing the on screen help and the TiVo manual (both incomplete and not in agreement with each other), I selected the “Repeat Guided Setup” as a best fit.

Worked like a charm and that procedure included a full OTA replacement scan (without cable) which saves a good deal of time. That procedure from start to finish was about 12 minutes. I have just used channel scan alone before and it took just over an hour, because it was scanning for non-existent cable channels. This implies to me that I can get a new OTA channel scan replacement much faster using the “Repeat Guided Setup” instead of just “Channel Scan”?

YMMV and dependent on how much you drink.
post #2535 of 3301
Will the Cable input also tune ATSC channels if you connect a 2nd TV antenna to the TiVo box? I know it supposedly has 2 tuners, so just wondering. Would be a nice way to avoid an A/B switch if it would work.
post #2536 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

Will the Cable input also tune ATSC channels if you connect a 2nd TV antenna to the TiVo box? I know it supposedly has 2 tuners, so just wondering. Would be a nice way to avoid an A/B switch if it would work.

Two Tuners mean you can record two channels at once.

That means Two ANTENNA channels or TWO Cable Channels or
ONE Antenna and ONE Cable Channel.

Can the CABLE input tune ATSC Channels?

I don't know and can't imagine why anyone would need an A/B Switch?
post #2537 of 3301
I don't know if both inputs will tune ATSC, I'm thinking the cable may only tune QAM but I'm not positive.
drhankz, the reason one might want to have 2 ATSC inputs is for people that have stations in different directions and use separate antennas pointed differently smile.gif
post #2538 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

Will the Cable input also tune ATSC channels if you connect a 2nd TV antenna to the TiVo box? I know it supposedly has 2 tuners, so just wondering. Would be a nice way to avoid an A/B switch if it would work.

The TiVo cable input should be able to tune OTA channels 2 to 13 since those use the same frequencies, but channels 14 and up for OTA use different frequency assignments from their cable counterparts, so those wouldn't work. And you might have trouble finding suitable guide data. It would be great if TiVo could accept either OTA or cable frequency assignments from either input connector, but that would require some firmware changes.
Edited by L David Matheny - 6/1/13 at 1:21pm
post #2539 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

Will the Cable input also tune ATSC channels if you connect a 2nd TV antenna to the TiVo box? I know it supposedly has 2 tuners, so just wondering. Would be a nice way to avoid an A/B switch if it would work.

The TiVo cable input should be able to tune OTA channels 1 to 13 since those use the same frequencies, but channels 14 and up for OTA use different frequency assignments from their cable counterparts, so those wouldn't work. And you might have trouble finding suitable guide data. It would be great if TiVo could accept either OTA or cable frequency assignments from either input connector, but that would require some firmware changes.

But the OTA channels use 8VSB modulation. The cable channels either use QAM modulation or are analog. IIRC, TiVo Premiere 4 and XL4 do not support ATSC 8VSB.
post #2540 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post

The TiVo cable input should be able to tune OTA channels 1 to 13 since those use the same frequencies, but channels 14 and up for OTA use different frequency assignments from their cable counterparts, so those wouldn't work. And you might have trouble finding suitable guide data. It would be great if TiVo could accept either OTA or cable frequency assignments from either input connector, but that would require some firmware changes.

This is somewhat incorrect. Cable channels 14 to 22 are in the midband VHF range so they will tune in on devices that still have analog tuning capabilities. The channel tuning assignment by frequency for cable tv is 2, 3. 4. 5. 6. 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. This is the VHF spectrum of the cable tv signal. Channels 95, 96, and 97 are the FM radio band and are never used by most cable companies because of the likely hood of ingress in customers homes from strong local FM radio stations signals.
If the Tivo Premiere and the Premiere XL have analog tuning capabilities on both the antenna and cable inputs then you can scan in the analog VHF cable channels on the antenna input if the cable system hasn't moved to 100% digital signals. The opposite is not true anymore as all analog OTA signals are gone.
post #2541 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by domino92024 View Post

But the OTA channels use 8VSB modulation. The cable channels either use QAM modulation or are analog. IIRC, TiVo Premiere 4 and XL4 do not support ATSC 8VSB.

Yes, in the Series 4 TiVos the Premiere 4 and XL4 are digital cable only (QAM), while the Premiere and Premiere XL have hardware support for 8VSB and analog. (I edited my post to fix the channel 1 brain fart.)
post #2542 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

This is somewhat incorrect. Cable channels 14 to 22 are in the midband VHF range so they will tune in on devices that still have analog tuning capabilities. The channel tuning assignment by frequency for cable tv is 2, 3. 4. 5. 6. 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. This is the VHF spectrum of the cable tv signal. Channels 95, 96, and 97 are the FM radio band and are never used by most cable companies because of the likely hood of ingress in customers homes from strong local FM radio stations signals.
If the Tivo Premiere and the Premiere XL have analog tuning capabilities on both the antenna and cable inputs then you can scan in the analog VHF cable channels on the antenna input if the cable system hasn't moved to 100% digital signals. The opposite is not true anymore as all analog OTA signals are gone.

Nobody is going to receive midband cable channels by connecting an antenna to the cable input, because even with NTSC (analog) no OTA TV channels were broadcast in the midband. I thought under ATSC all channels 2 thru 13 used the same frequencies for analog and digital OTA and digital cable, but a bit of research seems to indicate that some cable systems may shift the frequencies of digital channels 5 and 6 a bit. And of course, digital OTA uses 8VSB modulation while digital cable uses QAM modulation.

Even though the Premiere and Premiere XL have the hardware to tune both OTA and cable frequencies, they won't tune digital OTA on the cable input or digital cable on the antenna input because (even in cases where the frequencies are the same) the firmware would cause the wrong demodulation scheme to be used (8VSB vs QAM). More flexible use of the two input connectors would require firmware changes.
post #2543 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post


Nobody is going to receive midband cable channels by connecting an antenna to the cable input, because even with NTSC (analog) no OTA TV channels were broadcast in the midband. I thought under ATSC all channels 2 thru 13 used the same frequencies for analog and digital OTA and digital cable, but a bit of research seems to indicate that some cable systems may shift the frequencies of digital channels 5 and 6 a bit. And of course, digital OTA uses 8VSB modulation while digital cable uses QAM modulation.

Even though the Premiere and Premiere XL have the hardware to tune both OTA and cable frequencies, they won't tune digital OTA on the cable input or digital cable on the antenna input because (even in cases where the frequencies are the same) the firmware would cause the wrong demodulation scheme to be used (8VSB vs QAM). More flexible use of the two input connectors would require firmware changes.

I don't have the hardware to test all the channel numbers you and Jed1 have posted, but I receive cable NTSC channels from 2 to 23, 98 and 135 on my TV. I lost 99 a little while ago. While having a channel available doesn't always mean a device can use it. I also doubt anyone is going to test it either. I can say that when I plug my cable into the Ant input of my DHG the scan only records 2 to 13. My TV tunes 2 to 23, 98 and 135 as NTSC. I conclude that the OTA/ATSC channel 14 is still at 470MHz and the cable 14 is at 123MHz. My TV agrees on these cable frequencies. It would seem that even though channels may be present the box needs firmware to make a table based on frequency during the scan.

post #2544 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post

Nobody is going to receive midband cable channels by connecting an antenna to the cable input, because even with NTSC (analog) no OTA TV channels were broadcast in the midband. I thought under ATSC all channels 2 thru 13 used the same frequencies for analog and digital OTA and digital cable, but a bit of research seems to indicate that some cable systems may shift the frequencies of digital channels 5 and 6 a bit. And of course, digital OTA uses 8VSB modulation while digital cable uses QAM modulation.

Even though the Premiere and Premiere XL have the hardware to tune both OTA and cable frequencies, they won't tune digital OTA on the cable input or digital cable on the antenna input because (even in cases where the frequencies are the same) the firmware would cause the wrong demodulation scheme to be used (8VSB vs QAM). More flexible use of the two input connectors would require firmware changes.

Sorry Dave I was looking at putting a cable feed on an antenna input. This is what I get for trying to respond to a post after not reading it properly and also being in a hurry. I do not know how the tuners are configured in the Tivo but I know I used to be able to get two cable feeds on my old RCA DLP as it had two separate tuners both with 8VSB (digital antenna), QAM (digital cable), and VSB (analog antenna and cable). The only difference between the two was the cable input supported a CableCard. My Pioneer Kuros has a hybrid tuner in it which means if I have digital cable with CableCard on antenna A then I only can have analog antenna or cable on antenna B. The Pioneers can not support two digital feeds at one time you either have digital cable or digital antenna.
Even if you can do this with the Tivo the big problem will be with the guide as you can not have two cable or two antenna listing at a time. This same problem happened with TVGuide On Screen and would result in no listings or no lineups.

As for the difference between NTSC and ATSC is that the modulation scheme has changed. The RF channel is still 6Mhz in size and still uses the existing RF channel assignments. With analog cable and OTA, they both used vestibal sideband modulation and with digital, OTA went with 8VSB and cable went with QAM. The one difference is the number of RF channel assignments is shrinking, from 69 to 51 channels for OTA as the government is selling off the TV spectrum for cell phone use and the RF channel assignments for cable are increasing. 125 channels at the end of NTSC, which increased to 135 with the switch to digital, and now is increasing to 158 channels.
It appears the government is again going to sell off more of the TV broadcast spectrum in 2015 for cell phone use.
post #2545 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

I don't know if both inputs will tune ATSC, I'm thinking the cable may only tune QAM but I'm not positive.
drhankz, the reason one might want to have 2 ATSC inputs is for people that have stations in different directions and use separate antennas pointed differently smile.gif
That is exactly correct. To have 2 different antennas for channels in different directions. Or to receive 2 different markets. On the PHD-VRX, both inputs can be used for cable or antenna channels. Which is a very nice feature. But overall the TiVo is a very nice box with good guide data and a nice menu interface.
post #2546 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

That is exactly correct. To have 2 different antennas for channels in different directions. Or to receive 2 different markets. On the PHD-VRX, both inputs can be used for cable or antenna channels. Which is a very nice feature. But overall the TiVo is a very nice box with good guide data and a nice menu interface.

Well ... even if you could get it to tune OTA off of the cable input, the scheduler software wouldn't know which input to use ... it just picks whichever one is not "busy" (if possible.)

The only way to navigate your situation is Jointennas or some other method of combining your antenna feeds.
post #2547 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Well ... even if you could get it to tune OTA off of the cable input, the scheduler software wouldn't know which input to use ... it just picks whichever one is not "busy" (if possible.)

The only way to navigate your situation is Jointennas or some other method of combining your antenna feeds.

The TiVos have two inputs (cable and antenna) and also two tuners, which in the case of the Premiere and Premiere XL are each capable of receiving NTSC (analog) or digital OTA or digital cable signals. But the question of which input(s) are fed to which tuners at any point in time is decided by the firmware. The firmware may just pick whichever tuner is not busy, but it uses its knowledge of what is connected to each input to decide which input to feed to the tuner(s). And a firmware change could allow use of both inputs for either antenna or cable, which would be great for people with OTA stations in two different directions or (more strangely?) with access to two different cable systems. As you say, currently people with OTA stations in multiple directions need to use something like a Jointenna, or they can just use multiple TiVos.
post #2548 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

The only way to navigate your situation is Jointennas or some other method of combining your antenna feeds.
Is that possible?
post #2549 of 3301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Is that possible?

Sure ... the problem is finding the appropriate jointennas. A solution would be dependent on your specific location, the actual frequencies used by the OTA stations and their direction from your location.

You could get lucky and have one station on VHF-hi in one direction and every other station on UHF in another direction, in which case you could get by with a simple UHF/VHF splitter/combiner. But, chances are, things will not be that simple. wink.gif
post #2550 of 3301

I'm sure this is not a widespread problem, but the latest software release from TiVo seems to have dropped OTA analog. Perhaps non-cable analog is more accurate.

 

Follow it here.

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