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Official Emotiva XPA-5 Owners Thread - Page 39

post #1141 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

well i know they delete post at avs and lock threads

but have never seen it at emotiva...

so your wrong

you should check it out

cheers..

So because you haven't seen it, it doesn't happen, eh? You have become an Emo fanboy, friend.
post #1142 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

well i know they delete post at avs and lock threads

but have never seen it at emotiva...

so your wrong .

Ah I see, I didn't know you're the ultimate judge of what does and does not go on at the Emotiva forum to summarily state that I am wrong. That's quite a bold statement, "eh"? You sound like you're a moderator or administrator of their forums (I am willing to bet real money that you aren't, however) in order to make a blanket statement that not one single post or thread has ever been deleted at their forum. I'll take the word of countless numbers of people who've come here to AVS that have said otherwise.
Edited by bo130 - 4/21/13 at 6:35pm
post #1143 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

So because you haven't seen it, it doesn't happen, eh? You have become an Emo fanboy, friend.

Yes, this times 1,000.
post #1144 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

should head over to the emotiva forums for futher lessons K...

3 db head room is not enough man.. u need atleast 7.5 db of head room of da power for the peaks and u know it..

cheers

I challenge you to find a source (outside of Emotiva) that proves what you state is necessary for peaks.

I doubt you will do this, but consider it a challenge.
post #1145 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

well i know they delete post at avs and lock threads

but have never seen it at emotiva...

so your wrong

you should check it out

cheers..

So because you haven't seen it, it doesn't happen, eh? You have become an Emo fanboy, friend.

well i posted negative reply to the owner and its still there...

cheers
post #1146 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

So because you haven't seen it, it doesn't happen, eh? You have become an Emo fanboy, friend.

Yes, this times 1,000.

i like my amp xpa 3 works great ... cant waite to try some mono blocks from emotiva..

da power
post #1147 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

should head over to the emotiva forums for futher lessons K...

3 db head room is not enough man.. u need atleast 7.5 db of head room of da power for the peaks and u know it..

cheers

I challenge you to find a source (outside of Emotiva) that proves what you state is necessary for peaks.

I doubt you will do this, but consider it a challenge.

you need the head room for the dynamics of music

why dont you ask Geronimo.USMC how he likes his W4S SX-1000 Monoblocks (1100 + wpc) on his studio 100s

theres a man with Da Power

maybe he can explain it to you

cheers
http://www.avsforum.com/t/559431/paradigm-owners-thread/27690#post_23230870
post #1148 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

should head over to the emotiva forums for futher lessons K...

3 db head room is not enough man.. u need atleast 7.5 db of head room of da power for the peaks and u know it..

cheers

I challenge you to find a source (outside of Emotiva) that proves what you state is necessary for peaks.

I doubt you will do this, but consider it a challenge.



Abstract

The existing theory of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) is extended to cover the calculation of the duration of intermodulation bursts. It is shown that feedback values in excess of some 40 dB will cause large internal overshoots within the amplifier. The clipping of these overshoots due to the limited dynamic margins of the amplifier driver stages is shown to give rise to long periods during which the amplifier is in cut-off condition. The duration of these periods is calculated and the mathematical results are verified with digital and analogue simulation. Finally, the relationships of TIM, slew rate, and power bandwidth are discussed.


you need DA POWER....
post #1149 of 1944
Hi emotiva owners,

Just got my XPA3 a month ago smile.gif and hooked my onkyo 818 using bluejeans LC-1 Low Capacitance Audio Cable. Is bluejeans LC-1 good for my XPA3 and 818? Or is there a better RCA Cable? If there is, what does it offer better than the others?

thanks.
post #1150 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Abstract

The existing theory of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) is extended to cover the calculation of the duration of intermodulation bursts. It is shown that feedback values in excess of some 40 dB will cause large internal overshoots within the amplifier. The clipping of these overshoots due to the limited dynamic margins of the amplifier driver stages is shown to give rise to long periods during which the amplifier is in cut-off condition. The duration of these periods is calculated and the mathematical results are verified with digital and analogue simulation. Finally, the relationships of TIM, slew rate, and power bandwidth are discussed.


you need DA POWER....

How about you attribute this to a source & provide a weblink?
post #1151 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalineblue View Post

Hi emotiva owners,

Just got my XPA3 a month ago smile.gif and hooked my onkyo 818 using bluejeans LC-1 Low Capacitance Audio Cable. Is bluejeans LC-1 good for my XPA3 and 818? Or is there a better RCA Cable? If there is, what does it offer better than the others?

thanks.

whats the awg of your cable?

i use monoprice cl2 in wall 12 awg it works great..

to me it all in the gauge of the cable..

congrats on the purchase of the xpa 3 i own it as well sounds great to me.

cheers
post #1152 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

should head over to the emotiva forums for futher lessons K...

3 db head room is not enough man.. u need atleast 7.5 db of head room of da power for the peaks and u know it..

cheers

I challenge you to find a source (outside of Emotiva) that proves what you state is necessary for peaks.

I doubt you will do this, but consider it a challenge.

just to help you out a bit more Bo

otherwise head over to the emotiva forums .. im just a novice but lots of experts there to help you


The point of high power amplifiers is not just to drive low sensitivity, low impedance speakers that require the power. Pretty much any dynamic loudspeaker without super high sensitivity can benefit from a powerhouse like the XPA-1. It all comes down to dynamic contrasts and transients. With any sort of transient musical event, like a drum hit or movie explosion, your speakers will demand a tremendous amount of power for a very short period of time. If your amplifier can't deliver, that transient will get smeared in the time domain. This smearing will homogenize the sound and decrease the impact of dynamic contrasts.

cheers
post #1153 of 1944
Please limit posts here on AVS to technical issues

posts deleted
post #1154 of 1944
The accepted (AES) peak-to-average ratio in music is about 17 dB, a power factor of 50.

A pair of 90 dB/m/W speakers at 12' require 0.67 W to reach 80 dB, a pretty loud average level (I imagine that is louder than most of us would like). To reach 97 dB (17 dB higher for those transient peaks) requires 33.3 W.

If the speakers are only 87 dB sensitivity then you need 1.33 W to reach 80 dB and 66.7 W to reach 97 dB.

Most amplifiers will deliver as much as 1 - 3 dB more power on fast transients. I am not sure how clipping corrupts ("smears") the time domain; it does add higher-order frequency content but the edges are still intact (faster, arguably). Note "fast" in the audio world is not generally microseconds; few power amps and fewer speakers have that sort of bandwidth. The rise time of a 20 kHz sine wave is a little under 15 us. It is true we can discriminate time differences of a few microseconds, but a realistic fast transient is tens of microseconds rising and hundreds of us or more in duration.

Movies are reputed to require greater dynamic range, but I'm struggling to see why a 500-1000 W amplifier is required by most people. Their money would be better spent on music and movies.

I strongly suspect we have as many if not more technical experts on AVS as the Emotiva forums but have no way of ascertaining either way. Nor do I really care. Nor do I have any hope of teaching "da Delta" anything he/she/it does not already know, but perhaps others can benefit (or not). I am sure I will be told to go over there and learn something now... smile.gif Unfortunately, I need to get back to practicing, concert in a couple of weeks and I'm behind.
post #1155 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The accepted (AES) peak-to-average ratio in music is about 17 dB, a power factor of 50.

A pair of 90 dB/m/W speakers at 12' require 0.67 W to reach 80 dB, a pretty loud average level (I imagine that is louder than most of us would like). To reach 97 dB (17 dB higher for those transient peaks) requires 33.3 W.

If the speakers are only 87 dB sensitivity then you need 1.33 W to reach 80 dB and 66.7 W to reach 97 dB.

Most amplifiers will deliver as much as 1 - 3 dB more power on fast transients. I am not sure how clipping corrupts ("smears") the time domain; it does add higher-order frequency content but the edges are still intact (faster, arguably). Note "fast" in the audio world is not generally microseconds; few power amps and fewer speakers have that sort of bandwidth. The rise time of a 20 kHz sine wave is a little under 15 us. It is true we can discriminate time differences of a few microseconds, but a realistic fast transient is tens of microseconds rising and hundreds of us or more in duration.

Movies are reputed to require greater dynamic range, but I'm struggling to see why a 500-1000 W amplifier is required by most people. Their money would be better spent on music and movies.

I strongly suspect we have as many if not more technical experts on AVS as the Emotiva forums but have no way of ascertaining either way. Nor do I really care. Nor do I have any hope of teaching "da Delta" anything he/she/it does not already know, but perhaps others can benefit (or not). I am sure I will be told to go over there and learn something now... smile.gif Unfortunately, I need to get back to practicing, concert in a couple of weeks and I'm behind.

did you pull 17 db out of a hat i read much higher values than that.. which means atleast 300 - 500 watts for good sound.. less you like muddy bass ...
post #1156 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Abstract

The existing theory of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) is extended to cover the calculation of the duration of intermodulation bursts. It is shown that feedback values in excess of some 40 dB will cause large internal overshoots within the amplifier. The clipping of these overshoots due to the limited dynamic margins of the amplifier driver stages is shown to give rise to long periods during which the amplifier is in cut-off condition. The duration of these periods is calculated and the mathematical results are verified with digital and analogue simulation. Finally, the relationships of TIM, slew rate, and power bandwidth are discussed.


you need DA POWER....

I read what you posted above (although I don't know who this statement is attributed to since you didn't provide a source)

However....

Where does this state that 7.5 db's are needed in that blurb you posted above? I also found nothing about 7.5 db's in the link you posted either.

I'd like a source from an industry professional (or someone who has written an AES paper), and please set aside the "da power" statements for a moment.
Edited by bo130 - 4/22/13 at 6:30pm
post #1157 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

did you pull 17 db out of a hat i read much higher values than that.. which means atleast 300 - 500 watts for good sound.. less you like muddy bass ...

But in what size room? And with what efficiency speakrs? 88db? 90? 95? You can't throw out watt numbers like that and be taken seriously because you refuse to look at the other half of the equation.
Edited by runnin' - 4/22/13 at 6:49pm
post #1158 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Abstract

The existing theory of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) is extended to cover the calculation of the duration of intermodulation bursts. It is shown that feedback values in excess of some 40 dB will cause large internal overshoots within the amplifier. The clipping of these overshoots due to the limited dynamic margins of the amplifier driver stages is shown to give rise to long periods during which the amplifier is in cut-off condition. The duration of these periods is calculated and the mathematical results are verified with digital and analogue simulation. Finally, the relationships of TIM, slew rate, and power bandwidth are discussed.


you need DA POWER....

I read what you posted above (although I don't know who this statement is attributed to since you didn't provide a source)

However....

Where does this state that 7.5 db's are needed in that blurb you posted above? I also found nothing about 7.5 db's in the link you posted either.

Reply to me with something about the 7.5 db's, and please set aside the "da power" statements for a moment.

you need head room Bo

lots of head room

how ever

xpr 1 mono block 1000w - 2000 w just to have a little extra head room bo

cheers
post #1159 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

did you pull 17 db out of a hat i read much higher values than that.. which means atleast 300 - 500 watts for good sound.. less you like muddy bass ...

But in what size room? And with what efficiency speakrs? 88db? 90? 95? You can throw out watt numbers like that and be taken seriously because you refuse to look at the other half of the equation.

yes so lets get serious xpr 1 mono blocks give us lot of power to handle the dynamics and transients eh

2700 watts

may da power of da watt be with you
post #1160 of 1944
You need more da power dube. Go to your emo website and order 10 XRR-1's. Don't listen to nobody except da power. When your cc bill comes call them up and crank your system over the phone. I'm sure they will understand.
post #1161 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

you need head room Bo

lots of head room

how ever

xpr 1 mono block 1000w - 2000 w just to have a little extra head room bo

cheers

u need Mcanslosh tube money bloks fo da power...

But yarr 2000watta...every speeker need dat heirloom

Moar stuff maek less distorthing only Lonnie has theNeed da power fo sonic nirvana

Why peepul screening in my hed talks all lies lies!!,!,!,!,!,!,!,!
post #1162 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Abstract

The existing theory of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) is extended to cover the calculation of the duration of intermodulation bursts. It is shown that feedback values in excess of some 40 dB will cause large internal overshoots within the amplifier. The clipping of these overshoots due to the limited dynamic margins of the amplifier driver stages is shown to give rise to long periods during which the amplifier is in cut-off condition. The duration of these periods is calculated and the mathematical results are verified with digital and analogue simulation. Finally, the relationships of TIM, slew rate, and power bandwidth are discussed.


you need DA POWER....

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

just to help you out a bit more Bo

otherwise head over to the emotiva forums .. im just a novice but lots of experts there to help you


The point of high power amplifiers is not just to drive low sensitivity, low impedance speakers that require the power. Pretty much any dynamic loudspeaker without super high sensitivity can benefit from a powerhouse like the XPA-1. It all comes down to dynamic contrasts and transients. With any sort of transient musical event, like a drum hit or movie explosion, your speakers will demand a tremendous amount of power for a very short period of time. If your amplifier can't deliver, that transient will get smeared in the time domain. This smearing will homogenize the sound and decrease the impact of dynamic contrasts.

cheers

Soo...the only thing you can offer is to paste Emotiva sales drivel from their
Site?? I was hoping for a more coherent explanation from YOU. Should have
Known better than to expect you to be able to explain in laymans terms on
The bovine manure you keep posting.

I would head over to the Emotiva forums if I thought I could get a coherent
Response from them. But, Geez those guys are much more technically advanced
Than we (I ) am here on AVS. They would be talking over my head so fast
I would be hopelessly lost.

Guess everything I learned here is up in flames. Let's see I have 3 sound systems in
My house. A 5.2 in my living room,3.1 in da bedroom, 2.1 in da study, and 2
Outdoor speakers in a zone 2 configuration.

So that is 12 of the revered XPA-1...cost to me $12 grand.. Lordy, I'd better
Check my credit card limit.
post #1163 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The accepted (AES) peak-to-average ratio in music is about 17 dB, a power factor of 50.

A pair of 90 dB/m/W speakers at 12' require 0.67 W to reach 80 dB, a pretty loud average level (I imagine that is louder than most of us would like). To reach 97 dB (17 dB higher for those transient peaks) requires 33.3 W.

If the speakers are only 87 dB sensitivity then you need 1.33 W to reach 80 dB and 66.7 W to reach 97 dB.

Most amplifiers will deliver as much as 1 - 3 dB more power on fast transients. I am not sure how clipping corrupts ("smears") the time domain; it does add higher-order frequency content but the edges are still intact (faster, arguably). Note "fast" in the audio world is not generally microseconds; few power amps and fewer speakers have that sort of bandwidth. The rise time of a 20 kHz sine wave is a little under 15 us. It is true we can discriminate time differences of a few microseconds, but a realistic fast transient is tens of microseconds rising and hundreds of us or more in duration.

Movies are reputed to require greater dynamic range, but I'm struggling to see why a 500-1000 W amplifier is required by most people. Their money would be better spent on music and movies.

I strongly suspect we have as many if not more technical experts on AVS as the Emotiva forums but have no way of ascertaining either way. Nor do I really care. Nor do I have any hope of teaching "da Delta" anything he/she/it does not already know, but perhaps others can benefit (or not). I am sure I will be told to go over there and learn something now... smile.gif Unfortunately, I need to get back to practicing, concert in a couple of weeks and I'm behind.

did you pull 17 db out of a hat i read much higher values than that.. which means atleast 300 - 500 watts for good sound.. less you like muddy bass ...

No, did you read my opening sentence?

AES = Audio Engineering Society www.aes.org

I am done with this.
post #1164 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

whats the awg of your cable?

i use monoprice cl2 in wall 12 awg it works great..

to me it all in the gauge of the cable..

congrats on the purchase of the xpa 3 i own it as well sounds great to me.

cheers

Hi,

Here is what is stated in their website.

The most important attributes of a line-level unbalanced audio cable are (1) shielding, and (2) capacitance. Heavy shielding protects audio signals from interference from outside sources. LC-1 Audio Cable uses a heavy double-braid shield, with one bare copper braid laid directly over another for extreme high coverage and high conductivity to ground; this is the identical shield configuration to Canare LV-77S, which tested best in our review of audio cable hum rejection characteristics (LC-1 hadn't been designed yet so wasn't tested at that time). By shrinking the center conductor to 25 AWG and foaming the polyethylene dielectric, we were able to get capacitance down to an extremely low 12.2 pF/ft, much better than LV-77S at 21 pF/ft. Capacitance can be important, particularly in long cable runs, because it contributes to rolloff of higher frequencies. The softer dielectric material and smaller center conductor, meanwhile, make the cable highly flexible and easy to route. LC-1 is built exclusively for Blue Jeans Cable by Belden, the leader in American communications cable, and is rated CM for in-wall installation in residential and commercial environments. For more information and specs on LC-1, read our "LC-1 Design Notes" article.

is this good enough? 4ft is the max length i need.
post #1165 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

No, did you read my opening sentence?

AES = Audio Engineering Society www.aes.org

I am done with this.

Speaking for myself, I am sorry to hear this. I read and
Understood the logic and FACTS in your post.
post #1166 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by gostillerz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

you need head room Bo

lots of head room

how ever

xpr 1 mono block 1000w - 2000 w just to have a little extra head room bo

cheers

u need Mcanslosh tube money bloks fo da power...

But yarr 2000watta...every speeker need dat heirloom

Moar stuff maek less distorthing only Lonnie has theNeed da power fo sonic nirvana

Why peepul screening in my hed talks all lies lies!!,!,!,!,!,!,!,!

tube amps are not my cup of tea not into muddy bass..

they lack in the damping factor..

cheers..
post #1167 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalineblue View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

whats the awg of your cable?

i use monoprice cl2 in wall 12 awg it works great..

to me it all in the gauge of the cable..

congrats on the purchase of the xpa 3 i own it as well sounds great to me.

cheers

Hi,

Here is what is stated in their website.

The most important attributes of a line-level unbalanced audio cable are (1) shielding, and (2) capacitance. Heavy shielding protects audio signals from interference from outside sources. LC-1 Audio Cable uses a heavy double-braid shield, with one bare copper braid laid directly over another for extreme high coverage and high conductivity to ground; this is the identical shield configuration to Canare LV-77S, which tested best in our review of audio cable hum rejection characteristics (LC-1 hadn't been designed yet so wasn't tested at that time). By shrinking the center conductor to 25 AWG and foaming the polyethylene dielectric, we were able to get capacitance down to an extremely low 12.2 pF/ft, much better than LV-77S at 21 pF/ft. Capacitance can be important, particularly in long cable runs, because it contributes to rolloff of higher frequencies. The softer dielectric material and smaller center conductor, meanwhile, make the cable highly flexible and easy to route. LC-1 is built exclusively for Blue Jeans Cable by Belden, the leader in American communications cable, and is rated CM for in-wall installation in residential and commercial environments. For more information and specs on LC-1, read our "LC-1 Design Notes" article.

is this good enough? 4ft is the max length i need.

all in the gauge what is it
post #1168 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The accepted (AES) peak-to-average ratio in music is about 17 dB, a power factor of 50.

A pair of 90 dB/m/W speakers at 12' require 0.67 W to reach 80 dB, a pretty loud average level (I imagine that is louder than most of us would like). To reach 97 dB (17 dB higher for those transient peaks) requires 33.3 W.

If the speakers are only 87 dB sensitivity then you need 1.33 W to reach 80 dB and 66.7 W to reach 97 dB.

Most amplifiers will deliver as much as 1 - 3 dB more power on fast transients. I am not sure how clipping corrupts ("smears") the time domain; it does add higher-order frequency content but the edges are still intact (faster, arguably). Note "fast" in the audio world is not generally microseconds; few power amps and fewer speakers have that sort of bandwidth. The rise time of a 20 kHz sine wave is a little under 15 us. It is true we can discriminate time differences of a few microseconds, but a realistic fast transient is tens of microseconds rising and hundreds of us or more in duration.

Movies are reputed to require greater dynamic range, but I'm struggling to see why a 500-1000 W amplifier is required by most people. Their money would be better spent on music and movies.

I strongly suspect we have as many if not more technical experts on AVS as the Emotiva forums but have no way of ascertaining either way. Nor do I really care. Nor do I have any hope of teaching "da Delta" anything he/she/it does not already know, but perhaps others can benefit (or not). I am sure I will be told to go over there and learn something now... smile.gif Unfortunately, I need to get back to practicing, concert in a couple of weeks and I'm behind.

did you pull 17 db out of a hat i read much higher values than that.. which means atleast 300 - 500 watts for good sound.. less you like muddy bass ...

No, did you read my opening sentence?

AES = Audio Engineering Society www.aes.org

I am done with this.

just an average estimate...

need more head room the 17 db..

40 db is more like it

cheers
post #1169 of 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Abstract

The existing theory of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) is extended to cover the calculation of the duration of intermodulation bursts. It is shown that feedback values in excess of some 40 dB will cause large internal overshoots within the amplifier. The clipping of these overshoots due to the limited dynamic margins of the amplifier driver stages is shown to give rise to long periods during which the amplifier is in cut-off condition. The duration of these periods is calculated and the mathematical results are verified with digital and analogue simulation. Finally, the relationships of TIM, slew rate, and power bandwidth are discussed.


you need DA POWER....

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

just to help you out a bit more Bo

otherwise head over to the emotiva forums .. im just a novice but lots of experts there to help you


The point of high power amplifiers is not just to drive low sensitivity, low impedance speakers that require the power. Pretty much any dynamic loudspeaker without super high sensitivity can benefit from a powerhouse like the XPA-1. It all comes down to dynamic contrasts and transients. With any sort of transient musical event, like a drum hit or movie explosion, your speakers will demand a tremendous amount of power for a very short period of time. If your amplifier can't deliver, that transient will get smeared in the time domain. This smearing will homogenize the sound and decrease the impact of dynamic contrasts.

cheers

Soo...the only thing you can offer is to paste Emotiva sales drivel from their
Site?? I was hoping for a more coherent explanation from YOU. Should have
Known better than to expect you to be able to explain in laymans terms on
The bovine manure you keep posting.

I would head over to the Emotiva forums if I thought I could get a coherent
Response from them. But, Geez those guys are much more technically advanced
Than we (I ) am here on AVS. They would be talking over my head so fast
I would be hopelessly lost.

Guess everything I learned here is up in flames. Let's see I have 3 sound systems in
My house. A 5.2 in my living room,3.1 in da bedroom, 2.1 in da study, and 2
Outdoor speakers in a zone 2 configuration.

So that is 12 of the revered XPA-1...cost to me $12 grand.. Lordy, I'd better
Check my credit card limit.

you have a small limit on your cc.. try american express..

cheers..
post #1170 of 1944
^^^^

discussions about what goes on at another forum are not appropriate here

move on please, or please leave the thread
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