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Official Emotiva XPA-5 Owners Thread - Page 30

post #871 of 1293
2/3/13 at 6:15pm
It looks like 5 owners report the sibilance. One changed his speakers and it's still there, one changed his pre pro and then had to change the Emotiva amp and others changed amps. I'm not sure what that has to do with kool aid and trolls(I think you're mixing up your metaphors), but your response seems to mirror some of the fan boys over there.
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post #872 of 1293
2/3/13 at 7:02pm
You would be in the minority who like emotiva over parasound .
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post #873 of 1293
2/3/13 at 9:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

It looks like 5 owners report the sibilance. One changed his speakers and it's still there, one changed his pre pro and then had to change the Emotiva amp and others changed amps. I'm not sure what that has to do with kool aid and trolls(I think you're mixing up your metaphors), but your response seems to mirror some of the fan boys over there.
Im running uber low end Polk monitor series ii speakers with an onk 809 paired with an xpa-5 and have no sibilance issues.

You done trolling this thread now?
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post #874 of 1293
2/4/13 at 3:57am
Speakers and room acoustics and processors have the biggest impact on SQ IMO. Unless one feels that he has to have his amp as a center piece of conversation as opposed to SQ he gives little thought to the brand. Of course the kool aid is free flowing for trolls on the Emotiva forum.[/quote]

i would put room acoustics ahead of speakers...

cheers
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post #875 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:11am
Accentuated sibilance results from a peak in frequency response and/or distortion in the 6kHz region. This is easily measured so if your having problems with sibilance I would test that region. Published tests (as found on the Emotiva site) do not show such a problem so it's up to you to dispute it with actual measurements.
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post #876 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

It looks like 5 owners report the sibilance. One changed his speakers and it's still there, one changed his pre pro and then had to change the Emotiva amp and others changed amps. I'm not sure what that has to do with kool aid and trolls(I think you're mixing up your metaphors), but your response seems to mirror some of the fan boys over there.

It seems as if you troll in the Emo threads. I suppose a defective amp could cause sibilance or other abnormal sounds. This would be the exception and not the rule as you would have others believe.
I change out equipment too frequently to be a fan boy of any brand. However I have owned Sherbourn, B&K, Parasound and Emotiva amps to mention a few. None was better than the Emotiva.

 

Amps are amps if properly designed and working within their design parameters. I get as fed up of typing that as I am sure others do of reading it, but the point never seems to get across fully. You are right when you say of the other amps that none was better than the Emotiva, given that Emotiva amps are well designed.

 

Emotiva amps do not 'cause' sibilance. End of. If someone has sibilance in his system it means that a frequency band of 5-6 KHz is being emphasised for some reason (I am assuming tweeters are not broken etc). If you look at the FR plots for the Emo amps there is no such emphasis, so the Emo amps simply cannot be responsible for it. Anyone suffering from this problem needs to look elsewhere to find the source of the sibilance and fix it. Also some people are especially sensitive to sibilance and 'go looking' for it. Sometimes there is natural sibilance on a voice and that needs to be considered too. But whatever causes it, it ain't the Emos.

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post #877 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:23am
+1
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post #878 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

i would put room acoustics ahead of speakers...

cheers

 

Probably right. A well treated room can make a $2,000 set of speakers sound like a $20,000 set (in an untreated room). But if you put a $20,000 set of speakers in a bad, untreated room, they will almost always sound like cr&p. And room treatments are really, really cheap if you DIY. By far the biggest ever bang for the buck anyone will ever usually get.

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post #879 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Probably right. A well treated room can make a $2,000 set of speakers sound like a $20,000 set (in an untreated room). But if you put a $20,000 set of speakers in a bad, untreated room, they will almost always sound like cr&p. And room treatments are really, really cheap if you DIY. By far the biggest ever bang for the buck anyone will ever usually get.

+1
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post #880 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:26am
I've had no problems with any of the Emotiva amps I've bought and I have friends who also run the XPA-1s and do not have any issues either. The comment I usually hear from those who buy them locally is that they are well made and sound fantastic. You're bound to have some defective devices with anything in a large enough group.
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post #881 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:33am
Back in the '80s I had some low-end Polk bookshelf speakers. I had a sibilance problem but attribute it to the crossover, a single capacitor on the tweeter, and the low quality of the tweeter. This of course made me more conscious of sibilance which my mind then accentuated. I am currently using three Emotiva amps and they sound as good as any amp I have used in the past and there is no accentuated sibilance.
Edited by Theresa - 2/4/13 at 4:52am
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post #882 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Back in the '80s I had some low-end Polk bookshelf speakers. I had a sibilance problem but attribute it to the crossover, a single capacitor on the tweeter and the low quality of the tweeter. This of course made me more conscious of sibilance which my mind then accentuated. I am currently using three Emotiva amps and they sound as good as any amp I have used in the past and there is no accentuated sibilance.

 

IKWYM. Sibilance is one of those things that, once heard, can result in an almost obsessive desire to go looking (listening) for it. I hope this discussion doesn't prompt people to do that!

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post #883 of 1293
2/4/13 at 5:06am
Very true, I hope it doesn't go viral too.
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post #884 of 1293
2/4/13 at 7:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Amps are amps if properly designed and working within their design parameters. I get as fed up of typing that as I am sure others do of reading it, but the point never seems to get across fully. You are right when you say of the other amps that none was better than the Emotiva, given that Emotiva amps are well designed.

Emotiva amps do not 'cause' sibilance. End of. If someone has sibilance in his system it means that a frequency band of 5-6 KHz is being emphasised for some reason (I am assuming tweeters are not broken etc). If you look at the FR plots for the Emo amps there is no such emphasis, so the Emo amps simply cannot be responsible for it. Anyone suffering from this problem needs to look elsewhere to find the source of the sibilance and fix it. Also some people are especially sensitive to sibilance and 'go looking' for it. Sometimes there is natural sibilance on a voice and that needs to be considered too. But whatever causes it, it ain't the Emos.

That's all well and good. So why are 5 people in that thread reporting sibilance? One guy reported changing his speakers from Paradigm to "Dyns" or something like that, and it was still present? Any any rate, it's just a thread and a buyer might want to check out the opinions, no need to get bent out of shape over it.

The current theory over there is this Butler hybrid amp the fellow who started the thread with may be rolled off on the highs thus mitigating the sibilance that he is now getting with the XPA-5 on certain tracks or recordings that he never got before. So yes, it is music or speaker related, but an amp can reduce it. They've had success with Lexicon and Parasound too. Just read the thread, it's all there.(These are all American amp designs that you may not be familiar with. The Butler has tubes, for instance, in a tube buffer stage.)
Edited by runnin' - 2/4/13 at 8:24am
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post #885 of 1293
2/4/13 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

It looks like 5 owners report the sibilance.

I'm sure there are 5 owners of any amp that has any significant volume of units sold can say the same.

I'm no Emotiva lover but the odds that they are making amps with unique congenital problems with sibillance is about zero. If memory serves Emotiva publish comprehensive bench test results for their amps on their web site, right? If they had such a problem it would show up there.
Quote:
One changed his speakers and it's still there, one changed his pre pro and then had to change the Emotiva amp and others changed amps.

That just proves that those weren't the sources of the sibilance in those cases.

The most likely causes of sibilance are the wrong speakers in the wrong room with the wrong recordings.

The other situation is that it seems less likely that a stand-alone power amp is being used with an automated system optimization facility such as Audyssey, MCACC or YPAO. They can be big helps for sibilance problems.
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post #886 of 1293
2/4/13 at 8:49am
I hadn't thought of that, room correction would make a big difference.
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post #887 of 1293
2/4/13 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Amps are amps if properly designed and working within their design parameters. I get as fed up of typing that as I am sure others do of reading it, but the point never seems to get across fully. You are right when you say of the other amps that none was better than the Emotiva, given that Emotiva amps are well designed.

Emotiva amps do not 'cause' sibilance. End of. If someone has sibilance in his system it means that a frequency band of 5-6 KHz is being emphasised for some reason (I am assuming tweeters are not broken etc). If you look at the FR plots for the Emo amps there is no such emphasis, so the Emo amps simply cannot be responsible for it. Anyone suffering from this problem needs to look elsewhere to find the source of the sibilance and fix it. Also some people are especially sensitive to sibilance and 'go looking' for it. Sometimes there is natural sibilance on a voice and that needs to be considered too. But whatever causes it, it ain't the Emos.

That's all well and good. So why are 5 people in that thread reporting sibilance? One guy reported changing his speakers from Paradigm to "Dyns" or something like that, and it was still present? Any any rate, it's just a thread and a buyer might want to check out the opinions, no need to get bent out of shape over it.
 

 

 

I have no idea why 5 people are reporting it. It doesn't seem like a huge number though. There could be various reasons for sibilance but it is very unlikely to be the amp - that's all I am saying. I am not disputing there is sibilance in their systems - but I have examined the results of the measurements of Emo amps and can see no reason to believe they are inducing sibilance.

 
Edit: Did I give the impression I am "bent out of shape over it"?  If so, I am giving the wrong impression. I have no brand loyalty at all. My loyalty is to me. I buy the products I believe will serve me the best for the money they cost, regardless of their brand. As such, I am very, very happy with all 4 of my Emo amps. But if someone made amps of similar spec and quality but at significantly lower prices, they are the ones I'd be recommending. Amps are amps. Simple devices whose important parameters have been totally understood for decades.

 

Quote:
The current theory over there is this Butler hybrid amp the fellow who started the thread with may be rolled off on the highs thus mitigating the sibilance that he is now getting with the XPA-5 on certain tracks or recordings that he never got before. So yes, it is music or speaker related, but an amp can reduce it. They've had success with Lexicon and Parasound too. Just read the thread, it's all there.(These are all American amp designs that you may not be familiar with. The Butler has tubes, for instance, in a tube buffer stage.)

 

An improperly designed amp that "rolls off the highs" (amp as tone control) can obviously mask the sibilance. So can using a treble filter. Nobody would dispute that. But the real solution is to find out the cause of the sibilance and fix it.

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post #888 of 1293
2/4/13 at 11:18am
If I had a problem with sibilance I'd just dial in a parametric filter around the 6kHz region but honest to goddess I have none.
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post #889 of 1293
2/4/13 at 11:38am
None here either.
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post #890 of 1293
2/4/13 at 4:46pm
3 Emotiva amps and no issues to report here.

biggrin.gif
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post #891 of 1293
2/4/13 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

If I had a problem with sibilance I'd just dial in a parametric filter around the 6kHz region but honest to goddess I have none.

Freudian slip, Theresa? biggrin.gif

No problems with my three amps, nor my friend's five...
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post #892 of 1293
2/4/13 at 7:08pm
Does anyone know the current that the XPA5 pushes through each channel??
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post #893 of 1293
2/4/13 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffypuck View Post

Does anyone know the current that the XPA5 pushes through each channel??

If you are talking about watts, this amp is rated at 200WPC.
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post #894 of 1293
2/4/13 at 8:05pm
200 W into 8 ohms implies sqrt(200/8) = 5 A
300 W into 4 ohms (I think?) => 8.7 A
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post #895 of 1293
2/4/13 at 10:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

i would put room acoustics ahead of speakers...


cheers

Probably right. A well treated room can make a $2,000 set of speakers sound like a $20,000 set (in an untreated room). But if you put a $20,000 set of speakers in a bad, untreated room, they will almost always sound like cr&p. And room treatments are really, really cheap if you DIY. By far the biggest ever bang for the buck anyone will ever usually get.

your right again K

heres my 1st absorber for under 20.. i figure about 8-12 of these will do alot of good in my yet to be built room.. im a slow builder. this trap really works ..

few on the ceilings walls and corners.. but as a few people have said not to much... few at a time ....

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post #896 of 1293
2/4/13 at 11:55pm
No, what I meant was, how many amps, or what current does this amp push? In other words, a 140wpc amp running at 20amps will not even touch a 70wpc runnning at 35amps. Im in the market for a new amp, well my first amp I should say, and all Ive heard during my research is that the current of the amp will say more about its ability to push out sound than just its watts per channel. Very few manufacturers even post that in their specs. Ive seen a few, but not many.
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post #897 of 1293
2/5/13 at 12:48am
What do you mean by "push" ?
A power amp does not "push" anything, but provides current into a given load at the actual voltage of the power rails controlled by the source voltage (input voltage). All it has to do, is fulfill the current needs at a given speaker impedance at a provided voltage. It's sort of a proportional valve in this respect, which has it throughput controlled by the tube diameter at the output (the load) and the driving voltage determined by the source.
The lowest impedance by todays standards (4 ohm speaker) is about 2 Ohm or higher, exceptions possible. But there are very few amps, which will be stable at loads below 2 Ohm, because there is normally no real world need for this. Thus no one designs for this abnormal load anymore (exceptions possible).
35 Amp current would need huge heat sinks or extraordinary active cooling to handle the heat dissipation need to run this for more than a short time.
Most power amp transistors are high current devices anyway.
Edited by gurkey - 2/5/13 at 2:48am
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post #898 of 1293
2/5/13 at 2:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Freudian slip, Theresa? biggrin.gif

No problems with my three amps, nor my friend's five...

No Freudian slip, I prefer "goddess" to "god."
I'm currently driving my tweeters with a UPA-5. Please note, I do NOT use passive biamping but rather active crossovers. No sibilance. I do have good tweeter's though.
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post #899 of 1293
2/5/13 at 2:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

i would put room acoustics ahead of speakers...


cheers

Probably right. A well treated room can make a $2,000 set of speakers sound like a $20,000 set (in an untreated room). But if you put a $20,000 set of speakers in a bad, untreated room, they will almost always sound like cr&p. And room treatments are really, really cheap if you DIY. By far the biggest ever bang for the buck anyone will ever usually get.

your right again K

heres my 1st absorber for under 20.. i figure about 8-12 of these will do alot of good in my yet to be built room.. im a slow builder. this trap really works ..

few on the ceilings walls and corners.. but as a few people have said not to much... few at a time ....

 

Nice job!  If it is a broadband absorber ("bass trap") they say you can't have too many but I am with you - go steadily and add a few at a time. If you have REW you can use ETCs and waterfalls to help decide where they go. If not, start with any of the 12 corners in the room and add them in a controlled way, listening each time that you make changes.

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post #900 of 1293
2/5/13 at 2:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffypuck View Post

No, what I meant was, how many amps, or what current does this amp push? In other words, a 140wpc amp running at 20amps will not even touch a 70wpc runnning at 35amps. Im in the market for a new amp, well my first amp I should say, and all Ive heard during my research is that the current of the amp will say more about its ability to push out sound than just its watts per channel. Very few manufacturers even post that in their specs. Ive seen a few, but not many.

 

The amount of current delivered by the amp depends on the load connected to it. This is why a 4 ohm load draws more current than an 8 ohm load (less resistance enables the amp to deliver more current for its rated power). I think you are assuming the amp somehow 'pushes' current to its load but in reality it is the opposite way around - the less resistive the load the more current the amp will deliver - ie the load draws the current required not the other way around. 

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