Are Good Quality Cables Worth It? - Page 7

Single ended output and balanced output do measure differently in harmonic signature.

What you call "as if it had very thick grill cloth" is actually more transparent sound. With less conductive material and smaller gauge for wire, you are restricting its ability to power the driver, especially low frequency info (usually requires higher current). The result is filtering effect that makes the high frequency sound more prominent (via reduction of low frequency sound) which explains your description about the cloth or audiophiles use the term veil lifted.


Yeah, anything for your cable business. If there are people to fool, why not, right?

More nonsense.
Why don't you answer my question?
You made the assertion, now explain it. I read the link you posted and it doesn't support your claims, as previously mentioned.

Nonsense because the harmonic signature is not measurable or the theory you are aware of contradicts what I posted? If it's the theory, can you let me know what that theory says? If it's about the measuring, well...


I'll explain but would like to know why you are asking such question. Is it because you do not understand how the differential and common mode works in balanced (differential) circuit?

I have both and I have not seen those differences in the measurements.

Thanks, I have about 30 different drivers available just sitting in my Garage but not sure why the listing design (drivers, etc) will matter.

PM sent.

I understand balanced and unbalanced circuits very well, you don't seem to though. The link you posted doesn't support your claims, indicating that you don't understand what that page says.
How many times do you have to be asked to explain yourself? Why are you avoiding the question? Is it because you've dug a hole for yourself and can't get out?


Nonsense because the 'theory' you posted is not theory at all, it's your attempt at explaining something you clearly don't understand.

So you do agree that balanced circuit does remove even order harmonics.


Ok, I didn't spend much time on links to show here so I'll take the blame on the link not being so useful.


See above.


In common mode rejection of differential circuit, being in-phase with the input signal, the even order harmonics result in cancellation while odd order harmonics being opposite with input signal, passes through summing circuit. The resulting signal carries odd order harmonics. It can be measured. I've seen the measured difference of harmonics between single ended amp and push-pull amp when fed the same signal.

No, because they don't.


This is not true. You don't seem to understand what harmonics are and are confusing them with common mode noise.

Perhaps you should read the link you posted, then maybe you'll understand balanced circuits.

What do you think about the measurable difference mentioned?


Perhaps I'm not the best writer here so it may take more than one attempt. Harmonics being in phase or out of phase of the two halves of the amplified signals, it either gets canceled by differential summing circuit along with noise (EMI / RFI) or passes. Are you saying the balanced circuit dose not change even harmonics?

I just saw this thread and your post and thought I'd share my experience, despite the fact that it may incur some dissent.

I have a modest, mid-high-end system. I have used three different 2m interconnect cables to connect my preamp to my power ampsTara Labs Quantum 4, Kimber Hero, and Audioquest King Cobra (the most expensive at $329; I'm not convinced it's necessary to spend more than that). I used a particular track on one of my CDs, "The Strife is O'er" from For God and Country: Forty Great Hymns of Joy and Celebration. This is a CD of organ, brass and percussion. I focused on the bass pedals of the organ where they come in during second half of the track most strongly. Each interconnect handled the bass differently.

I don't say one cable was better than the other, just that they handled the organ's bass differently with this track. They are, at least outwardly, different; probably constructed differently inside as well. If measurements were taken, I think they'd measure differently. Even if not, the fact remains one aspect of the sound was noticeably different with each cable. And this was an unintentional test, as a new system configuration and a TV stand not designed for the equipment I have necessitated new interconnects; the Tara Labs, my original cable, isn't made anymore (ca. early 90's).

So I'd say that yes, there can be differences in cables, but one need not spend a fortune on them. Blue Jeans or Monoprice cables may suit you (I use BJC video cable and have no complaint). Plus, I think the real difference (if any) will be made at the back end of the chain. I've yet to be convinced that interconnects from source to preamp will matter as much.

[quote=geekhd;18304705]What you call "as if it had very thick grill cloth" is actually more transparent sound. With less conductive material and smaller gauge for wire, you are restricting its ability to power the driver, especially low frequency info (usually requires higher current). The result is filtering effect that makes the high frequency sound more prominent (via reduction of low frequency sound) which explains your description about the cloth or audiophiles use the term veil lifted.
>>>>>>

I'm surprised none of the speaker builders out there felt like commenting on that one- it would require a unique set of variables to work out that way, but you are correct, an increase in cable resistance could cause that (although it would most likely have to be added to the bass circuit only), the question would be how much of a change would it take be as audible as we heard, as thick cloth over the tweeter (not more transparent I can assure you).

Would a few hundredths of an ohm difference between wiring harnesses do that? Maybe?

It was nice though to hear you talk about how wire can have a 'filtering effect', even a few feet of it within a loudspeaker.
>>>>>>


Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd
Totally different kinds of wire? Do you mean something like bronze wire instead of copper?
[by Joe Skubinski...]Sure, why not...


My rec to anyone to try different wire materials was sincere. I truly believe you should experiment.


PS- note my number of posts, cool. It will never be this again

Not having a beef at this does not mean you do not have pre-conceived notions. Everybody has preconceived notions. An individual can not form one single thought without being subject to bias. Have you ever wondered why medical tests are always "double-blind"?


You are claiming to hear differences that were proven again and again not to exist.

I see. I guess you don't have anything to offer then, just hot air???


Unfortunately, in his kind of business they would all be out of business if they would put up


Went to your public profile, didn't see any link to your manufacturing company; but then, I am blind as well.

So you are selling / suggesting poorly performing speaker cables. The reason for the wording "poorly" is because its increased filtering level to a point of audibility. That's not transparency in audio cable performance.


You're going to have to do your own research.


No need to waste time on that. It's been done and decided that LCR parameters are all there's to consider in audio cables for highest performance. For home audio, you cannot do better than 10 to 12 ga. copper wire for connecting amp and speakers.

I agree you have level/source/setup/etc. issues inherent to your equip.

As I said 3db change is barely perceptible. Yet you claim significantly louder volume on balanced (xlr) cabling.

Regardless, louder doesn't equal better nor cleaner sound. Just louder.

I know you are confident that others may hear the difference on your equip and that's ok. Just don't place too much confidence on higher priced cabling equaling better sound.

Mike

Maybe because they couldn't get a hold of Kpt_Krunch.

That is not a very good measuring instrument. Good thing for you though that it is not, more people to fool.


But unless you compared under bias controls, those audible differences will be gone.
Oh, dissent is good. Some can learn from it.


Why use different materials that have lower conductivity than copper and perhaps higher internal inductance??? Tone controls are less expensive to use.

Actually, it is not below 16kHz. DBTs are level matched to 0.1dB spl for a good reason.

CharlesJ,

Poor choice of words. +3db change is generally barely detectable to human ear that such change has occurred.

I'm also talking generally about audible freq range. Not sure about 16khz as this is upper end.

Still, I do not believe interconnect/speaker wire, regardless high quality and appropriately priced, will approach even 1db in "quality' of hearing, thus rendering them as useless and waste of money.

Unless of course submitted to DBTs which you mention and that cable crowd abhors.

Thanks,

Mike

You are confusing noise level and volume level. A 3db difference in noise is barely perceptible, but a 3db in volume level is much, much louder. It's like somebody turned up the volume level about 5 clicks when you select the balanced input. I know that because I had to turn it down about 5 clicks every time I went to balanced to try to get a level-matched comparison. The louder volume from the balanced is neither better nor worse sonically, it's just an unavoidable byproduct of the circuitry in the balanced connection that causes the volume to be much louder when that input is selected. Even with manual adjustments, the main volume level isn't fine enough to get an exact level match. Requiring a physical volume change and the impossibility of exactly matching volume levels is why DBT is not possible.

I believe you are confused.

A 3db increase in volume level is NOT much much louder!

It's barely louder even though increase results in twice amp power needed.

Noise level also increase along with signal not decreases.

First you say XLR resulted in much cleaner sound. Now you say increased level of sound from XLR is neither better or worse sonically.

Not sure what equip you have, but level matching inputs over rca/xlr when switching between the two to compensate, should be fairly easy.

Still, just cause balanced is louder (in your system) does not mean sound is cleaner or better (unless perhaps you have grounding/shielding type issues).

Good luck

Just to satisfy my curiosity, I just tested it with a 1khz test signal and a sound level meter switching between balanced and RCA andthe measured difference is 6.5db (74.5db RCA versus 81db balanced). The owners manual states that it is a 3db difference, but it is actually around 6db (confirming what rock_bottom posted earlier in this thread). To put it in perspective, it takes the double the power to make a 3db difference in volume, and a 10db difference is twice as loud, so 6db is a very large volume difference that requires manual correction to try to compare sound quality.

Agreed, the only reason I'm emphasizing the volume difference is for those that demand double blind tests to point out that it's not possible to do for this comparison. I'm not suggesting that more volume makes cleaner sound, I'm saying that volume makes DBT impossible.


Agreed, I matched the level by changing the main volume when switching. This is a pretty non-optimal test because you have to manually change volume and it takes a few seconds to switch. However, testing in this manner, it is possible to hear differences when they are meaningful. But the majority of comments here say that this type of testing is useless disregarding that fact that it is the only viable way to compare.

haha - good one

No, 3db is twice as loud. 10db is 10 times as loud.

Again, not sure what equip you have or what your manual states.

Only that spending money on so called high quality cable/wire to produce cleaner sound is futile.

Spend more time and effort in figuring out what you do have and understanding what you are reading in your manual while adjusting your equip to your liking. Speakers make bigger impression. So does room treatment.

Probably much more measurable and effective than rca/xlr cable.

Then enjoy.

Mike

"Agreed, the only reason I'm emphasizing the volume difference is for those that demand double blind tests to point out that it's not possible to do for this comparison. I'm not suggesting that more volume makes cleaner sound, I'm saying that volume makes DBT impossible." pjp

DBTs would indeed provide valid test results. How would volume make these tests impossible?

What does volume have to do with it?

It's about dyanamic range and freq response easily plotted on graph paper.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

What DOES make cleaner sound since we are on thread about exotic cables producing such effects?

The only impossible thing here is providing evidence of such claims.

Mike

I can see now that this conversation is not going to be fruitful. Several times you posted that 3db was barely perceptible, now it's twice as loud. And how did you come to the conclusion that 10db is 10 times as loud?



Do you really think that DBT's can be valid without matching volume levels?


Yes, I'm familiar with graph paper. Please explain to me exactly what sound source you would use to generate the graph and what you would use to determine what is right in terms of results on the graph.


The point is it simply isn't possible to prove anything by graphs or anything else. Test signals are not music. The only way to evaluate a system with music (the only signal that matters) is by listening to it and determining which changes help, which are worse, and which make no difference at all -- and I hope people that do that will share their experiences. Post number 191 is an example of useful feedback from actual experiences -- but those are few and far between.

Ok, please explain to me in detail exactly how you would do it.

A blanket statement about XLR balanced ICs being hotter, less hot, cleaner, than Hi-Z etc cannot be made without being called into question on every point as there are so many variables between types of balanced signals, Hi-Z input stage construction, signal strength, cable length etc.

First, there are 2 types of balanced line level signal IC protocols. Transformer coupled (IMO the least troublesome) and differential. Transformer coupled balanced line inputs and outputs do not reference the AC or signal ground on the primaries, only the secondaries where the phase side of the transformers are connected to the input stage of the amp and the output stage of the source unit.

Depending on the RFI environment of the system and the length of the IC cable, NO ground or shield may be required on either end. Usually, the pro systems will tie the cable shield at the input and float the shield at the output of the source.

Depending on the transformer of choice by the designer or installer, the unbalanced input gain and the gain (pre control) of the balancing transformer are usually the same. There is no reason NOT to design the first stage gain NOT to match whichever input style is chosen. This easily done with a couple resistors.

If the input and outputs are differential, then the equation changes as the differential inputs are directly coupled to an op-amp whose output MAY be hotter than the Hi-Z single ended input tie to the amps first stage. Differential inputs can also present many more issues with susceptibility to noise, hum, ground loops, phasing issues, etc.

Some designers compensate in the amp's input select and assign circuitry to minimize the difference between the two, BUT any difference is a function of how the amp's input selection circuits were designed and NOT automatically because of any inherent level difference between cabling methods.

Some systems will match identically between balanced and unbalanced and others may have 3-6 db gain difference. It is a amp design difference ONLY, NOT a hard and fast rule that all balanced line signal levels and Hi-Z lines differ in signal quality and available signal voltage and as such, one is better than the other. They BOTH have uses in the audio world and BOTH deliver full fidelity, with identical audio aspects IF all the proper design paramters are met in the amp and source devices.