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The "REECARRAY" build! - Page 3

post #61 of 655
Thread Starter 
Pm me with the price and ill let you know i have my laptop which has vista but my desktop downstairs in my HT room has XP so it would work on that.
post #62 of 655
That's looking mighty close to done. No listening yet? If not, I'm impressed by your willpower...I probably would have been testing this thing every other step of the way .
post #63 of 655
Looking good Reece
post #64 of 655
Reece- That looks freakin' awsome man!!! Hope it sounds as good as it looks.
post #65 of 655
Lpads.

I have this one.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=91400832

Parts Express #260-262, 8 Ohm LPAD


The drawing is here;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...62&ctab=4#Tabs

The LPAD has three terminals, #1, #2, #3 printed on it.

If you take the LPAD by itself with nothing connected to it, this is
your Ohms reading when measuring it.

Measure the resistance (Ohms) across terminals #1 and #3,
with the shaft to one extreme you should read ~ 8 Ohms. Now turn it
to the other extreme and you will start to see the reading rise, about
30 Ohms at almost full extension, but mine reads "open" when it's at
the extreme. (open akin to no resistance akin to very high Ohms).

Now measure terminals #1 and #2. This is where the tweeter connects to.
With the shaft to one extreme, you should read ~ zero Ohms. Now turn it to the other extreme and you will start to see the reading rise, about 30 Ohms
at all most full extension, but mine reads "open" when it's at
the extreme. (open akin to no resistance akin to very high Ohms).


If your 8 Ohm LPAD behaves in a similar fashion, then it's working good.
If you have a 4 Ohm LPAD, then I would expect similar behavior except
terminals #1 and #3 would read ~4 Ohms in the same location where 8 Ohms is noted above.

BAD Driver ?
You should read the DC resistance of the coil and see if it matches the
specificiation. I don't see this spec listed for your tweeter driver, but if
it's been confirmed at under 5 ohms, it should be good then.

Just hook it up correctly and no need to make anymore measurements
with the crossover/Lpad/tweeter wired as it may confuse you more unless
you know Ohms Law and how these things interact.
post #66 of 655
Reecew.. Your're going to need some x-over changes on the tweeter to EQ its response. Until then, you may want to turn up the treble about 6 db on your reciever, then adjust the L-pad. You can probably steal some ideas from the Econowave x-over, or perhaps I can come up with something for you.
post #67 of 655
Good old Ohm's Law. Pretty much all of electrical engineering can be derived from it . It's the only thing from college I was able to 'keep' and use again in the professional world.

For reference, some useful equations:
V = I * R
P = V * I ...... P = V^2 / R ...... P = I^2 * R
(I = current, R = resistance, P = power)

Impedances X1 and X2:

Series: X1 + X2

Parallel: X1*X2/(X1+X2)

Impedance of a capacitor: 1/(2*pi*freq*C) (C=capacitance in farads)

Impedance of an inductor: 2*pi*freq*L (L=inductance in Henries)

HTH .

EDIT: Thanks kgbl. Error corrected.
post #68 of 655
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the compliments! I haven't fired it up yet due to its quite large to be hauling around up and down stairs through the whole house. But its wired properly all the resistance measurements are correct and been verified. I did get the rear panel on and in place today before I had to leave for work. So it will be ready for testing in the morning if I am home, I hope I'm home haha.

The L-pad I have if you go on the PE website on the L-pads page its the very first one if its sorted by highest rated. Its 50watt 8 ohm I believe. ill have to look again, I'd link it but I'm on my cell phone at work at the moment.

Kbgl, I know you told me before about the treble and bass functions inside the receiver. Its set at 0 now on both. So by raising the treble up to 6 what would it do? I would be more than happy for you to help me come up with a sufficient x-over. I may be buying some measurment equip here in the next few days. Just need to verify finances are in order first, the wifes been rebelious lately spending money with no regard to my hobby! Lol. But if I get that would I need to measures its response first before I can start x-over tweaks? Or is it pretty simple and obvious what I will need?
post #69 of 655
Glad to hear you are getting measurement gear lined up.
The feature of the crossover that you need to build in to correct the downward tilt of the tweeter's response is called HF(High Frequency) Compensation. The econowave crossover has HF Comp so you may want to check it out if you plan on listening to your speakers before you build a custom crossover.
You should give your woofer line a listen without a crossover just for reference as a starting point. I'm curious to hear what you think of it. Keep in mind that with a passive crossover you will not be adding but taking away. On the woofer side there is the low pass and baffle step compensation usually just called BSC. You may or may not need BSC; room placement, woofer response, and baffle width are a few things that affect BSC.
post #70 of 655
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

Glad to hear you are getting measurement gear lined up.
The feature of the crossover that you need to build in to correct the downward tilt of the tweeter's response is called HF(High Frequency) Compensation. The econowave crossover has HF Comp so you may want to check it out if you plan on listening to your speakers before you build a custom crossover.
You should give your woofer line a listen without a crossover just for reference as a starting point. I'm curious to hear what you think of it. Keep in mind that with a passive crossover you will not be adding but taking away. On the woofer side there is the low pass and baffle step compensation usually just called BSC. You may or may not need BSC; room placement, woofer response, and baffle width are a few things that affect BSC.

Well its a bit late to give the woofers a go without the x-over. Its all wired up, sealed, and ready to go as is. Id hate to take a driver out , remove the stuffing, de-solder the wires just to hear them by themselves. Ill just have to make my judgement after getting it in the room in place and adjusting the L-pad and my receiver to see what i can come up with. Hopefully it wont be too bad without all this fancy x-over stuff. If i think it has potential i can progress on it from there or scrap it. If it sounds really bad i guess ill give the woofer line a go without the x-over. There's so much to learn about all this haha. I just want it to sound good, if the response looks like a mountain range on fire but sounds good TO ME ill be happy . With all this x-over talk I dont know how the SLA's and TLAH's designed by bill fitzmaurice can sound as good as they do to me with just as generic as a x-over i will be using . Maybe i could need this stuff because im using a compression driver? I dont know lol.
post #71 of 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post


Kbgl, I know you told me before about the treble and bass functions inside the receiver. Its set at 0 now on both. So by raising the treble up to 6 what would it do? I would be more than happy for you to help me come up with a sufficient x-over. I may be buying some measurment equip here in the next few days. Just need to verify finances are in order first, the wifes been rebelious lately spending money with no regard to my hobby! Lol. But if I get that would I need to measures its response first before I can start x-over tweaks? Or is it pretty simple and obvious what I will need?


If you click on the link to the CD on the first page of your thread, you will see a very small graph of the frequency response. Unlike most dome tweeters, the response is not flat from about 3k up. A basic x-over like you have will roll off the frequencies below about 3k, but the fact remains that 3k is a lot louder than 10k with this CD, and I believe, horns in general. With a x-over like the one used on the econowave, they have built in some equalization to correct this. EQ of drivers is part of what x-overs do. That's one of the reasons why an off the shelf x-over may be adequate, but not ideal. If you boost the treble with your receiver, it will boost 10k more than 3k, so you will be a bit closer to flat. If you did not do this, you would have to increase the CD level with the L-pad to get any high frequencies. But doing that would overboost the frequencies down around 3k.

If you are going to do passive x-overs, it helps to have either very good software, or a lot of parts on hand. I don't have the software, but I have lots of caps, coils, and resistors. Take a look at the econowave x-over, and you will see more or less what you will need. I saw that x-over once, but can't find it now. If you are only going to do this speaker passively, I wouldn't buy a lot of parts. If you are going to build speakers for a few years, then buy about $150 worth of parts to get started.
post #72 of 655
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl View Post

If you click on the link to the CD on the first page of your thread, you will see a very small graph of the frequency response. Unlike most dome tweeters, the response is not flat from about 3k up. A basic x-over like you have will roll off the frequencies below about 3k, but the fact remains that 3k is a lot louder than 10k with this CD, and I believe, horns in general. With a x-over like the one used on the econowave, they have built in some equalization to correct this. EQ of drivers is part of what x-overs do. That's one of the reasons why an off the shelf x-over may be adequate, but not ideal. If you boost the treble with your receiver, it will boost 10k more than 3k, so you will be a bit closer to flat. If you did not do this, you would have to increase the CD level with the L-pad to get any high frequencies. But doing that would overboost the frequencies down around 3k.

If you are going to do passive x-overs, it helps to have either very good software, or a lot of parts on hand. I don't have the software, but I have lots of caps, coils, and resistors. Take a look at the econowave x-over, and you will see more or less what you will need. I saw that x-over once, but can't find it now. If you are only going to do this speaker passively, I wouldn't buy a lot of parts. If you are going to build speakers for a few years, then buy about $150 worth of parts to get started.

Thanks! Well im not sure i will have much time if any at all today to test it out . But i will definitely boost that treble in my receiver. Until i can get some good software and measuring equipment ill just have to ear tune it all. I appreciate the info! Now generally where is the bass boost in the receiver centered around? Is that around 80hz?
post #73 of 655
The EconoWave crossover is a minimalist implementation of Wayne Parham's design approach providing HF compensation:

http://www.pispeakers.com/Speaker_Crossover.doc

As Kgbl describes above, when using constant-directivity waveguides, you must provide HF comp to flatten the response, or, as I stated elsewhere here, they will sound like ass....
post #74 of 655
Thread Starter 
Well i got a chance to fire it up and give it a listen for about 15 minutes. I was honestly ready for a big FAILURE due to the x-over being "less than desireable" and Neo Dan's array's failure. Id say its a success! And no i do not believe its good just because i want it to be a success. I told my wife as i was bringing it down stairs if this doesnt sound good im scrapping it and building some econowaves haha. Shes all WHAT! Honestly i think i have a winner.

This is what i did to test. I set my receiver for 2ch no sub, unhooked my right speaker so only the left one (array) was playing, and listened to music. First though is they need a sub for the lower range but i knw that going into and thats A-OK ive got a more than capable sub. My L-pad allows me to completely turn off the CD or atleast turn it down to where its in-audible anywho. So i first listened to just the woofers not bad and it was definitley much louder than my last speakers. So i turned up the L-pad until i felt i had a decent blend and listened for a few more minutes. At this point I like it for sure! Its definitely good in my book! I also did an A/B comparo of the array vs. my old speaker. The array much much louder with the same power from the receiver and to me a much more desireable sound. My old towers are a 3 way design with tweeter mid woofer woofer configuration so they had more BASS but not better SQ IMO. I then played with the receivers internal EQ adjustments and i could hear an audible difference for the better. So when i get more time to actually dedicate to messing with the L-pad setting and receivers EQ i will do so. But as of right now i DO NOT regret going forward with this at all! Ill get a few other opinions on the matter soon hopefully and let you guys know what they think as well.

Of course i know there could be further advancements in the x-over to get more uniform sound. Also the initial listening test was done without the tweeter height being at the optimal height so that will only improve the sound there also once its adjusted. But i figured id let you guys know where i was at with it and my inital impression.

NEW PICS ON FIRST POST
post #75 of 655
Glad to hear they sound great. Gonna flip one on its side for a center channel
post #76 of 655
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG5589 View Post

Glad to hear they sound great. Gonna flip one on its side for a center channel

Oh no center here much too large! Now i only built one for testing just incase it didnt turn out. I didnt want to be stuck with 2 huge towers and not be able to return atleast half of the stuff i bought for credit towards some new speakers to make econowaves. But i will be starting the second tower here soon possibly even tomorrow! Im on the way out to door to work here in the next few minutes or else id be doing more listening test.



Anyone know where i can get some good sine waves in a broad range of frequencies? And also some warbles to help me adjust the l-pad volume closer to flat? I know this isnt IDEAL but its what i have to do without measureing equipment. Or even a free program that i can make my own sine waves and warbles?
post #77 of 655
Nice Reece!!! Hope the build on the other speakers goes as well as the first. What 3 way speakers do you have in your setup right now?
post #78 of 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

oh no center here much too large! Now i only built one for testing just incase it didnt turn out. I didnt want to be stuck with 2 huge towers and not be able to return atleast half of the stuff i bought for credit towards some new speakers to make econowaves. But i will be starting the second tower here soon possibly even tomorrow! Im on the way out to door to work here in the next few minutes or else id be doing more listening test.



Anyone know where i can get some good sine waves in a broad range of frequencies? And also some warbles to help me adjust the l-pad volume closer to flat? I know this isnt ideal but its what i have to do without measureing equipment. Or even a free program that i can make my own sine waves and warbles?

wimp!
post #79 of 655
Thread Starter 
HAHA. The center wouldve had to be no taller than 8" to work with my entertainment center. And the the WG i am using is 10.25" its self no a no go for me . I honestly dont think i need one these give great sound dispersion and should be just fine running phantom center.
post #80 of 655


Love it!

dang, if i hadnt already invested $$ in front speakers, I'd seriously love a challenge like building a hefty pair as you're doing! Lookin' good!
post #81 of 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

I honestly dont think i need one these give great sound dispersion and should be just fine running phantom center.

I'm currently running phantom center with my maggies up front, and as you said, if you've got a broad dispersion from these babies, you shouldnt miss a center!
post #82 of 655
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Rone View Post

Nice Reece!!! Hope the build on the other speakers goes as well as the first. What 3 way speakers do you have in your setup right now?

Thanks man. I have *cough* sony ssf-7000's *cough*. LOL. Nah honestly I got hear the and do a/b/c comparisons against polks and infinity's before I ever knew the price. And I chose them. Now the matching center channel sucks ass
. They'll make some badass surrounds now or garage speakers. I'm thinking surrounds and moving my insignia surrounds back for 7.1 duties.
post #83 of 655
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin A View Post

I'm currently running phantom center with my maggies up front, and as you said, if you've got a broad dispersion from these babies, you shouldnt miss a center!

Well that's what I'm hoping. My current speakers right now unless your in the sweet spot are totally localizeable. But the new tower with just very quick and general testing proved to have nive coverage over my whole LP with minimal toe in. I've always heard/read that people who have good enough speakers to run phantom enjoy it much more. I guess it could also just be personal preference as everything in in the audio world.
post #84 of 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin A View Post



Love it!

dang, if i hadnt already invested $$ in front speakers, I'd seriously love a challenge like building a hefty pair as you're doing! Lookin' good!

and the drivers are CHEAP!!! $10 each. Its about $160 per speaker for all drivers.
post #85 of 655
Thread Starter 
Yea no doubt the price is right haha. Its about $550 give or take $50 to complete this. If you already have an active crossover setup you could knock off an additional $75 for x-over and l-pad junk. The price I said included all building supplies for two towers.
post #86 of 655
Previously Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 in another thread.

You can make a test CD of your own. Just generate the sine waves with Audacity (i'd set level to -3dB to make sure it doesn't clip anywhere in the signal chain), save as WAV, and burn as Audio CD with your favorite burning program.



http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
post #87 of 655
Thread Starter 
Alright ill check that out when I get home. I previously read where you said you need a warble to be able to use just a spl meter to try and set the l-pad properly. Will regular sine's work for this?
post #88 of 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

Alright ill check that out when I get home. I previously read where you said you need a warble to be able to use just a spl meter to try and set the l-pad properly. Will regular sine's work for this?

A warble tone is supposed to work a little better. You can set the L-pad by ear. The tones will help in making a better x-over. How much did you need to attenuate the CD in your testing earlier today?
post #89 of 655
Thread Starter 
Well its tough to say. I'd say it was roughly around 10db. I went backwards from no CD sound up to where I like it. But if I go off the markings on my L-pad its roughly -10 to -12 db. Which would be right on with the CDs sensitivity being 107db and the array being 95db. Who knows man but so far so good! It can only get better.
post #90 of 655
I just read one of Penngray's posts on another forum that mentioned ARTA having a built in RTA. If you can play pink noise, you can measure your frequency response with the RTA.
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