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Poll Plasma vs LCD - Page 2  

post #31 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

LCD owners are by far the most likely to still be running in the sales floor torch mode with SD content stretched to full screen.

I hate torch mode on either my lcd or plasma and since getting a plasma I've tried toning down the lcd to look more like plasma. I dont quite work. As for SD in full screen I do that on the plasma, in fear it isnt good for it to have the bars on the side alot, and I do alot of SD (hasnt got HD cable yet). On the LCD I use 4x3.
post #32 of 420
A quote: And, as I anticipated, the number of folks owning both techs and choosing PDP continues to grow, now at 24/26, or 92%.

An update: at 6:25 CST the score is 4 against 39 or, roughly, 1 to 10 ratio for plasma when dual owners are counted. In reality, LCDs outsell plasmas 3 to 1 in the 40+ category. If 3 to 1 is a problem, I will settle for 2 to 1.

Conclusion 1: AVS members are out of the mainstream America by a factor of 20 to 30. That ratio is way past anything like a random distribution. The AVS members, judging by these numbers, are from a different planet.

Conclusion 2: Let's stipulate that plasmas are superior to LCDs for these reasons:

1. Better colors
2. Better blacks
3. Better contrast
4. Better motion resolution
5. Better angles
6. Better pro reviews
7. Lower cost per square inch

vs. the LCDs

1. Cartoonish colors
2. Lousy blacks
3. Inferior contrast
4. Abysmal motion resolution
5. Limited angles
6. Critical reviews
7. Higher cost per square inch

With a handicap like this LCD sales should be 0 and plasma should take it all. Right? Well, the LCDs beat the living crap out of plasmas in sales in the 40+ class.

Now the question is why. My conclusion is: We have been witnessing a Madoff-class con job perpetrated on the American consumer by the unholy conspiracy between the manufacturers, sellers, and the advertizers. As a result, in spite of the above seven deadly sins on the part of the LCDs and the seven virtues of plasmas, the American consumer, having been completely brainwashed by the above conspirators, decided to pay more for less.

The marketing geniuses that pulled this stunt should try to sell sand in Africa and snow to the Eskimos.

There is only one problem with my conclusion: the first 5 categories are visually ascertainable. This means that anyone with a decent vision - it's safe bet that only those people buy TVs - can see and be instant experts in determining what they like.

Category 7, the price, is so self-evident that even my 3-year old granddaughter knows that 2 is more than 1.
post #33 of 420
Thread Starter 
I think what you fail to realize is LCD outsells plasma because of money

more companies are making LCD panels (and always have) more major companies have invested in producing large LCD's

more companies have more money invested in LCD as well and they do not stand to benefit if Plasma eats into their profit shares, LG and Samsung still make Plasma because they already have the plants and money invested into it but as you can see in their current line up's they are not improving the tech at all, only Panasonic is doing that.

why? because it makes them more money.

people buy LCD's because when they go to a store they got 9 LCD's in their face for every 1 plasma on average due to the manufactures producing more LCD's

then they got a salesmen on the sales floor of many stores who has been pushed by his superiors to try and sell as much of xxx brand as possible once again due to money

money drives everything and LCD makes more companies more money and that is why they market them more than the competition its really that simple.
post #34 of 420
Thread Starter 
also the regular user base of this site is what you would call A/V enthusiasts

as such the average person on these forums is much more informed than the average consumer and also cares much more about how their display (or whatever else) performs in practice.

people are not returning LCD's in droves because many average people have just recently in the past year or two started buying LCD and Plasma TV's to replace older TV's due to how much the prices have dropped now.

these people often are replacing a CRT TV and many do complain about how bad SDTV looks on an HDTV esp. an LCD HDTV

case in point i gave my mom my 1 year old Sony 32" XBR6 to replace her Sony 27" CRT TV. this LCD TV is one of the best i've seen with SDTV picture quality due to how much processing it does to the image and its small size.

did she complain about the picture quality on it at first? yep you betcha.

i pop'd in a DVD and then she liked the picture but in the end of the day now shes gotta get HD cable service or watch a worse picture on a better TV

that is the real point of view of a non-enthusiast average US consumer right there
post #35 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

I think what you fail to realize is LCD outsells plasma because of money

more companies are making LCD panels (and always have) more major companies have invested in producing large LCD's

more companies have more money invested in LCD as well and they do not stand to benefit if Plasma eats into their profit shares, LG and Samsung still make Plasma because they already have the plants and money invested into it but as you can see in their current line up's they are not improving the tech at all, only Panasonic is doing that.

why? because it makes them more money.

people buy LCD's because when they go to a store they got 9 LCD's in their face for every 1 plasma on average due to the manufactures producing more LCD's

then they got a salesmen on the sales floor of many stores who has been pushed by his superiors to try and sell as much of xxx brand as possible once again due to money

money drives everything and LCD makes more companies more money and that is why they market them more than the competition its really that simple.

What you said is all true but it doesn't negate my conclusion about the genius of the sellers to be able to convince the millions of buyers to pay more for less, if you accept the claims by the plasma guys.

The problem is that these claims about the plasma virtues just don't register with the Amarican consumer and his eyes. This why no company, profit margins aside, dropped an LCD line and continued making plasmas.
post #36 of 420
Quote:


What you said is all true but it doesn't negate my conclusion about the genius of the sellers to be able to convince the millions of buyers to pay more for less, if you accept the claims by the plasma guys.

I don't think there is much genius involved in pushing typical electronics products to the "average" consumer.

As a former IT-professional I've had numerous requests from many regular people for information and my own opinion on what kind of computer to buy. These people just want a reasonably fast, reliable computer that will easily perform the generally simple tasks that will be required. These people often can't be bothered to delve deeply into the various performance characteristics offered between different models of computers. Every single piece of information I've doled out (and I certainly do my best to provide accurate information) was taken at face value without serious question from anyone.

It's much the same in other areas of electronics and consumer goods in general, TVs included. If the 19 year-old "salesman" walking the floor of Best Buy is directed to push brand X or technology Y, then that's what he'll do and that's what will sell the most to the "average" person who just wants a nice looking TV for their family room.
post #37 of 420
There is another simple factor you failed to mention.

If the LCD costs more it must be better.
post #38 of 420
As someone who has been a non-commissioned TV salesman for 2 major retailers (neither being Sears) in 3 very different markets in 3 different states... I can say that "spiffs" or incentives are not given for selling LCD/LED or plasma. Unfortunately, here is exactly how most conversations go in regards to choosing a tech..

Customer: "I don't want a plasma."

Me: "Why wouldn't you want a plasma?"

Customer: "I don't know."

There are still major myths circulating around about plasma. Either it's "they have gas that is harmful like asbestos", "their bulb needs to be replaced", "I don't want to recharge it", or simply "My cousin's girlfriend's brother says LCD is better."

What I have seen is the some of the less experienced salesman latch onto the opinion of the more experienced salesmen. So you'll find a store where either the majority prefer LCD or the majority prefer plasma.

Personally, I purchased an LCD 4 years ago and an SXRD 2 years ago. I have to say that my next TV will be a plasma given the PQ advancements since I purchased my LCD.
post #39 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I don't think there is much genius involved in pushing typical electronics products to the "average" consumer.

As a former IT-professional I've had numerous requests from many regular people for information and my own opinion on what kind of computer to buy.

I will respect your personal experience but I think that when it comes to selecting a computer - I have done many times myself - people tend to rely on the advice of an expert like yourself because they just lack the basis to make a choice themselves. What makes one PC better than the next is not immediately obvious and requires knowledge the average buyer just doesn't have.

TVs, on the other hand, are like women in a beauty contest: it doesn't take any special expertise to judge what you see. The pretty ones get the attention and the dates.

This is why LDCs win. To continue with my analogy, that girl with the very red lipstick may turn out to be hard to live with and my not look so good at home after a shower but she was the one that caught your attention.
post #40 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

To continue with my analogy, that girl with the very red lipstick may turn out to be hard to live with and my not look so good at home after a shower but she was the one that caught your attention.

And that is why LCDs outsell plasma 3:1 and Samsung outsells the LCD competition almost 2:1...
post #41 of 420
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by travon802 View Post

And that is why LCDs outsell plasma 3:1 and Samsung outsells the LCD competition almost 2:1...

QFT

many people prefer form over function, they get sold on looks. thats easily the main reason samsung's sell so well

and really though to the average person's eyes in the average showroom floor with all the TV's on torch mode the LCD's jump out due to their brightness and overall picture quality is very close to equal on most sets.

another thing that most stores do to sell LCD's is they promote them by having a few models often samsung's LED's these days playing blu-ray's and wowing everyone that walks by unknowing that every single TV in that store would look just as good had it been playing the same thing.


in other words to the average user today be it LCD or Plasma they all provide roughly the same picture at the end of the day and no normal buyer gets bother with black levels or motion resolution until someone Tell's them about it often times the salesmen that is trying to sell a more expensive TV

they would however rarely ask you ok so how far away from this TV are you sitting and how bright is your room? etc.
post #42 of 420
Thread Starter 
so end of day one of the poll with 77 votes and 44 out of 49 or 89% people on these forums that own both tech's prefer plasma.

some more interesting statistics

of those who prefer plasma 27% have only owned plasma

of those who prefer LCD 71% have only owned LCD

please lets keep this poll rolling, i did expect the figures to end up this way but not as slanted as it is currently LCD guys rally your troops (not alt forum accounts )
post #43 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pw5599 View Post

It would be nice if those voters would say which they bought 1st and why they bought the other the next time.

Theres so many varibles like did you have a good experience or bad experience with a individual technology? From my experience the only advantage plasma has over LCD was the name "Pioneer". IMO thats why LCD outsells plasma by a large margin.
post #44 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

Theres so many varibles like did you have a good experience or bad experience with a individual technology? From my experience the only advantage plasma has over LCD was the name "Pioneer". IMO thats why LCD outsells plasma by a large margin.

I am now a lcd owner,maybe i would consider a 42inch plasma with pioneer
blacks and detail,the problem is there is non such plasma on the market.
post #45 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

I will respect your personal experience but I think that when it comes to selecting a computer - I have done many times myself - people tend to rely on the advice of an expert like yourself because they just lack the basis to make a choice themselves. What makes one PC better than the next is not immediately obvious and requires knowledge the average buyer just doesn't have.

TVs, on the other hand, are like women in a beauty contest: it doesn't take any special expertise to judge what you see. The pretty ones get the attention and the dates.

This is why LDCs win. To continue with my analogy, that girl with the very red lipstick may turn out to be hard to live with and my not look so good at home after a shower but she was the one that caught your attention.

Well said and true for the most part...lol

LCDs are not horrible tvs. It just comes down to personal preference for people that "know" and for the ones that don't "know" whabuy t catches their "eye" in the store.
post #46 of 420
I dont own either yet, but so far, to my eyes, I see differences in LCD vs Plasma. LCD can look cartoonish in some demos. Once setup and adjusted better, they seem to come into balance. With not so good HD material, LCDs I have seen look a hair less dirty, but that may vary with different sets. In uncontrolled lighting situations, the LCDs ive seen show better details in the blacks and shadows. The brightness and crispness of LCDs catch my eye and I want to look at them. SD content (that will be a factor for me) looks better on plasma than LCD (some LCDs are better than others). One thing thats hard for me to get past on LCD is I guess the motion blur. I noticed when watching a cooking show on Food network or something in HD at HH gregg, every time the camera moved a little, there was a lightswitch in the background that would look odd. It would go fuzzy then lock focus, then fuzz out and then lock focus. This happened each time the camera twitched. If you notice details, it became annoying. The plasma showing the same thing did not suffer the same issue. The light switch seemed more focused throughout the camera twitch. Small issue I know, but if I see it, then it can be an issue for me since it does not fuzz out on my CRT.

Just food for thought. Each has its place. Many may buy LCD since it is more of a drop in place, forget it, and just watch kind of thing. Plasma seems to be more finiky about placement, overall lighting, picture adjustments, care (like IR issues) that many folks simply do not want to think about, or know about. Its like having a home or car stereo. How many folks want to spend hours tweaking crossover points, driver placement angles, cabling, sitting distances, driver materials, amp classes and electronic specs? I have done so for years and have better sounding and imaging car and home stereos than 95% of the people that I know, but they do not want to spend the time to get that. They simply want something to listen to or watch with little if any fuss.

Perhaps LCDs outsell Plasma due to all the non tweaky viewers. Does that make LCD better? No. Does it make plasma better? No. Perhaps if an LCD and a Plasma were tweaked to its best, there may be little PQ differences. I dont know that since I have not seen them both side by side tweaked to their best. In those cases, personal preference may win out.
post #47 of 420
See, it's this inherent "tweakiness and placement" business that I simply do not buy, having owned/installed/calibrated numerous plasma and LCD displays.

Both my PDP and LCD's have taken a nearly equal amount of time to dial-in. As a matter of fact, I would probably lean towards LCD actually taking more time to calibrate, due to the seemingly unending laundry list of video and motion options available, due to LCD's inherent deficiencies in regards to motion-handling.

Ditto for placement. It is LCD that you have to be more particular about viewing angles and washed-out color, not PDP's.

Finally, like I've said already: both LCD's and PDP's perform about as well as can be expected in ambient, day light. Both can look great, both can look awful. NO SCREEN IN EXISTENCE looks acceptable with direct sunlight blazing all over it. NONE. So to constantly bring up these worst-case scenarios where both techs look terrible is pointless. Not saying you did that, but it happens...often.


Again, what I hear are folks incessantly bringing up the glossy/reflective screens (which are known to both techs), and acting as if this reality is exclusive to PDP's which is patently untrue.

Handily though, the reality that PDP's (as a technology) resolve motion better, display deeper blacks, and look better off-axis are omitted.

Again, LCD's get brighter and SOME offer less reflective panels.

that's it.

done.

James
post #48 of 420
ramazur: "What you said is all true but it doesn't negate my conclusion about the genius of the sellers to be able to convince the millions of buyers to pay more for less, if you accept the claims by the plasma guys.

The problem is that these claims about the plasma virtues just don't register with the Amarican consumer and his eyes. This why no company, profit margins aside, dropped an LCD line and continued making plasmas."



Certainly you don't believe this is the first time in history this has occurred? And, more specifically, in the consumer electronics industry? VHS for Beta. MD vs CD spring to mind.

Crucially of course, this has absolutely nothing to with this thread, and for obvious reasons, some continue to derail the thrust of the results, which are as plain as the nose on your face.

Most specifically: HUMAN BEINGS WHO HAVE OWNED PLASMA AND LCD TELEVISIONS OVERWHELMINGLY PREFER PLASMA DISPLAYS.

get over it.

James
post #49 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

Theres so many varibles like did you have a good experience or bad experience with a individual technology? From my experience the only advantage plasma has over LCD was the name "Pioneer". IMO thats why LCD outsells plasma by a large margin.

I will agree with Cband on this one.

I don't own a PDP and never have for many reasons. I alway thought that my next main set would be a Pioneer Pro, but with them getting out of the biz, that probably will not happen. I have looked at the other brands and found that each has faults that although are not deal breakers, are enough to make me just say I will stick with the LCDs that I have for now.

The big one that I have seen is the "floating" light levels, especially on the Panasonics that I have seen. This would drive me nuts. Are my LCDs perfect? No, not by far, but I can live with them.
post #50 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by travon802 View Post

As someone who has been a non-commissioned TV salesman for 2 major retailers (neither being Sears) in 3 very different markets in 3 different states... I can say that "spiffs" or incentives are not given for selling LCD/LED or plasma. Unfortunately, here is exactly how most conversations go in regards to choosing a tech..

Customer: "I don't want a plasma."

Me: "Why wouldn't you want a plasma?"

Customer: "I don't know."

There are still major myths circulating around about plasma. Either it's "they have gas that is harmful like asbestos", "their bulb needs to be replaced", "I don't want to recharge it", or simply "My cousin's girlfriend's brother says LCD is better."

What I have seen is the some of the less experienced salesman latch onto the opinion of the more experienced salesmen. So you'll find a store where either the majority prefer LCD or the majority prefer plasma.

Personally, I purchased an LCD 4 years ago and an SXRD 2 years ago. I have to say that my next TV will be a plasma given the PQ advancements since I purchased my LCD.

dead on. You left out however the most salient myth (oxymoron, I know, LOL) in some mind's, handily again, in that it is the ONLY area an LCD "out-performs" a PDP: brightness/reflections.

Again, even though both techs are more than adequate in 95+% of installations, it is called upon time and time again by the LCD camp, largely because the tech has nothing else to offer over PDP.

Better resolution: nope.
Better color fidelity: nope
Better motion resolution: nope (worse actually)
Better off axis viewing: nope (again, worse)
Better blacks: nope (again, worse)

Now, if I were in the business of moving LCD's which of the above would I flaunt?

Ummm...I'll go with brightness and matte screens. Not on the list, but what the hell?!

James
post #51 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

I will agree with Cband on this one.

I don't own a PDP and never have for many reasons. I alway thought that my next main set would be a Pioneer Pro, but with them getting out of the biz, that probably will not happen. I have looked at the other brands and found that each has faults that although are not deal breakers, are enough to make me just say I will stick with the LCDs that I have for now.

The big one that I have seen is the "floating" light levels, especially on the Panasonics that I have seen. This would drive me nuts. Are my LCDs perfect? No, not by far, but I can live with them.

Really? Please humor me and list the reasoning implemented as to why LCD was a superior choice for a display over a PDP.

James
post #52 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by travon802 View Post

As someone who has been a non-commissioned TV salesman for 2 major retailers (neither being Sears) in 3 very different markets in 3 different states... I can say that "spiffs" or incentives are not given for selling LCD/LED or plasma. Unfortunately, here is exactly how most conversations go in regards to choosing a tech..

Customer: "I don't want a plasma."

Me: "Why wouldn't you want a plasma?"

Customer: "I don't know."

There are still major myths circulating around about plasma. Either it's "they have gas that is harmful like asbestos", "their bulb needs to be replaced", "I don't want to recharge it", or simply "My cousin's girlfriend's brother says LCD is better."

What I have seen is the some of the less experienced salesman latch onto the opinion of the more experienced salesmen. So you'll find a store where either the majority prefer LCD or the majority prefer plasma.

Personally, I purchased an LCD 4 years ago and an SXRD 2 years ago. I have to say that my next TV will be a plasma given the PQ advancements since I purchased my LCD.

The main reason why 90% of tv-buyers do not buy plasma's is that plasma's
are to big,42 inch and above is in most people's opinion exaggeration.
post #53 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post


Most specifically: HUMAN BEINGS WHO HAVE OWNED PLASMA AND LCD TELEVISIONS OVERWHELMINGLY PREFER PLASMA DISPLAYS.

get over it.

that is a pretty broad statement, don't you think?
post #54 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

Theres so many varibles like did you have a good experience or bad experience with a individual technology? From my experience the only advantage plasma has over LCD was the name "Pioneer". IMO thats why LCD outsells plasma by a large margin.

I would vote "LCD (I own(ed) BOTH LCD and Plasma)", but I spent enough time with the PRO-101FD to find out plasma doesn't agree with me - negating the usual LCD vs. PDP talking points.

ABL, dithering artifacts, and most importantly phosphor lag (yellow flashes frequently) are items I was (and still) unable to put up with, so a purchase and return was avoided. What good is "better motion resolution" if you constantly see phosphor lag? What about the double standards of IR and BI... despite how much those here try to brush aside? What about the rising black level of Panasonic plasmas?

So, just PDP embellishment of pros for those oblivious to it's cons... Even David K @ Cnet no longer recommends any Panasonic plasma, and all scores have been dropped.
post #55 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Really? Please humor me and list the reasoning implemented as to why LCD was a superior choice for a display over a PDP.

The big reason (back when I bought my first flat panel) was very simple, price/size. I wanted the biggest that I could get from a reputible brand for the amount of money that my wife would let me budget (can't underestimate the WAF).

I have since bought 13 more LCD panels for assorted uses (mainly business), but at home I noticed our viewing habits would probably constitute abuse for a PDP.

I would like the Pio Pro panel just for selected viewing of movies and some of the TV series that I have on DVD. Not for gaming, everyday watching of 4:3 SD material and the like.

I will honestly say that I am not in one camp or the other on this and did not vote in the poll. PDP has some distinct advantages over LCD and visa-versa.
post #56 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

that is a pretty broad statement, don't you think?

No, not at all. This statement is based upon what this admittedly unscientific poll has extracted. I feel it is reasonable to assume at this point that, barring some bizarre explanation as to why such a decisive number of folks would choose PDP over LCD without rhyme or reason, that there's likely some validity to the figures.

Because personal opinion is included does not invalidate data, even if it conflicts with popularity or, in this case, sales. This is not what this is attempting to measure or even, roughly gauge.

I am confident that if you took this poll, configured it scientifically and measured preference amongst owners of both technologies, PDP would again triumph resoundingly.

I own LCD's and PDP's. And have owned 7 altogether in the last 3 years. And installed even more.

James
post #57 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

The big reason (back when I bought my first flat panel) was very simple, price/size. I wanted the biggest that I could get from a reputible brand for the amount of money that my wife would let me budget (can't underestimate the WAF).

I have since bought 13 more LCD panels for assorted uses (mainly business), but at home I noticed our viewing habits would probably constitute abuse for a PDP.

I would like the Pio Pro panel just for selected viewing of movies and some of the TV series that I have on DVD. Not for gaming, everyday watching of 4:3 SD material and the like.

I will honestly say that I am not in one camp or the other on this and did not vote in the poll. PDP has some distinct advantages over LCD and visa-versa.

TNG, I APPLAUD you for supplying an extremely valid basis for NOT purchasing a PDP, AND phrasing it correctly: "our viewing habits would probably constitute abuse."

key word: abuse.

You will get no argument from me there: an LCD is by far the superior display for longevity in an ABUSIVE environment.

I have never, and never will argue against the downside of placing a PDP in an abusive viewing scenario.

again, key word: abusive.

hat's off to you, sir.

James
post #58 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by travon802 View Post

And that is why LCDs outsell plasma 3:1 and Samsung outsells the LCD competition almost 2:1...

Actually, 9 out of 10 TVs now sold are LCDs.

And, Samsungs' lead over Vizio is not 2 to 1, at least not in the USA.
post #59 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post


I will honestly say that I am not in one camp or the other on this and did not vote in the poll. PDP has some distinct advantages over LCD and visa-versa.

I would agree with this statement which, polls aside, is probably closer to the real world experience of most

I owned/ have owned quite a few of both types of displays: my Kuro 141 is still my main display but the LED displays, which are also in my HT, are the ones that bring most favorable comment

my opinion only of course: I don't see why this is always a 'them against us' type of discussion
post #60 of 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Because personal opinion is included does not invalidate data, even if it conflicts with popularity or, in this case, sales. This is not what this is attempting to measure or even, roughly gauge.

I am confident that if you took this poll, configured it scientifically and measured preference amongst owners of both technologies, PDP would again triumph resoundingly.

I have found that here in this specific section of the forum, although there are fans of both camps that will get into it from time to time, the PDP people are by far more vocal. Not saying that they don't make some good points, but they will spend more time defending the tech than a LCD owner will.
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