Blue Ray Audio/Settings/Audio Questions

1. These settings are different per player. What BD player model?
2. Divx (R) is a Video on Demand service via the internet. You have to pay that is why you have to register.
3. There are two things at work here. Decoding and then Post Processing. The chart is showing which input audio types that post processing is available on. Post processing can do things like take 5.1 and output as effective 6.1 / 7.1

Looking at the BD Player manual now. It looks like...
PCM -vs- bitstream is for HDMI and allows you to decide if the player is decoding or not, if the player does not decode it looks like you loose the ability for the secondary audio track.

The re-encode looked like it pertained to getting legacy multi-channel encode including secondary audio program via the digital optical audio out.

I just skimmed it so don't shoot me if I did not quite grasp it right.



What page is the chart on in the AVR manual? I will see if I can find it online and interpret what it is all about.

On your internet connect player? There should be a way to browse the Divx(R) VOD service if your registered with the VOD website. You can purchase and play offerings it would seem.

On the PCM -vs- bitstream it isnot so clear cut. The audio should be identical. Your AVR's processing capabilities may limit it some when decoding lossless encoded audio.

Many AVR's can't apply to auto calibration when decoding lossless, but can if it recieves already decoded multi-channel PCM.

Many AVR's restrict post processing abilites as well when decoding lossless encoded audio and will allow more to be done when recieving multi-channel pcm.

This is on top and in addition to restrctions in the player regarding secondary audio.

The Onkyo TX-SR605 uses (1) TI DA708 DSP processor and only has 240 MIPs, therefore it is severely limited when running HD audio codecs especially DTS Master Audio (loss-less) tracks @ 96kHz. The bass manager and Audyssey 2EQ use quite abit of the DSP's resources leaving little for HD audio decoding and post-processing such as DPL2x (5.1 > 7.1). Dolby True Audio (loss-less) has less overhead so it will run without as many limitations.

Just my $0.01..

It will probably be tomorrow before I can look at the chart.

But, M code summed up well what I was attmepting to explain on the matter.

I don't use the player your using. I'm not sure how the VOD service works. That is best posted in the dedicated thread for your player in the Blu-ray players section on these forums.

The 605 is now 3 years old and simply underpowered in the audio DSP department for HD audio decoding of DTS Master Audio. Therefore, set the Blu-ray player for multi-channel PCM output..

Just my $0.01..

Decoding merely unzips a file that was compressed to save space, turning it back into PCM. It does not matter whether the decoding happens in the player or the receiver. The PCM will be the same either way.

However, decoding is just the start of the process of turning digital data into sound. Once the encoded data is turned back into PCM, the processor does other tasks - bass management, distance/timing adjustments, EQ, and the application of DSPs such as PLIIx to matrix 5.1 sources to 7.1. Some receivers (including yours) lack the processing power to decode lossless and do all of the other post-decoding functions.

That's why there's no one, simple answer to the question of whether it is better to decode in the player or bitstream to a receiver for decoding. The answer depends on the capabilities of each player and receiver and on what post-decoding functions you want to perform.

There's one other factor with lossless. If you want to hear secondary audio (menu sound effects and PIP commentary tracks), you must decode in the player. Bitstream only sends the feature soundtrack to the receiver for processing. Secondary audio is not part of the feature soundtrack. In order to hear secondary audio, the feature soundtrack has to be decoded and run through a mixer, where the secondary audio is added in. That has to happen in the player.


Re-encode turns lossless TrueHD or dts-MA into lossy DTS. The player decodes the track, mixes in secondary audio, and re-encodes the mixed output as lossy DTS. That's fine for people using optical connections, which don't support lossless audio anyway. But, audiophile is the way to go for lossless bitstream over HDMI. With Samsung players, the PCM setting actually gives you the best output - lossless decoding with secondary audio.

Keep in mind..
Within the AVR's audio DSP processor, multi-channel PCM uses significantly less MIPs and memory resources rather than doing the audio decoding from a native encoded DTS Master HD bitstream..

Just my $0.01..

Yes. I'm not sure why you mention that though.

A 5.1 source decoded by the player should not be output as 7.1. Is there actually sound in the rear channels?

I have not read the C6500 manual. Does it have any processing modes that produce 7.1 outputs from 5.1 sources? Panasonic, Pioneer, and Oppo players have dts-HD Master Audio Essential decoders which use channel duplication to produce 7.1 from DTS 5.1 source tracks on Blu-ray. Dolby and PCM sources are output as 5.1. Previous generations of Samsung players had fully functional DTS-HD decoders which output 5.1 as 5.1. But, perhaps that changed with the C6500.

(EDIT: The manual does not mention dts-HD Master Audio Essential decoding. However, it has DTS Neo:6 processing as an option. See p36. The manual says Neo:6 can be used to generate multichannel PCM from stereo sources. But, perhaps it also works on 5.1 sources to create rear channel audio. That's how Neo:6 processing works in receivers. I suggest you turn that setting to Off and see whether it makes a difference.)

As a test, leave the player set to PCM and try a regular DVD and see what kind of output you get. DVDs do not have 7.1 soundtracks. Or, try a Blu-ray with a 5.1 TrueHD or PCM track.

Because when the AVR is handling multi-channel PCM it is an easier load on its DSP audio processor. Certain AVRs (such as the 605) are designed to automatically to eliminate certain processing features such as bass manager, Room EQ and DPL2X post-processing and the DSP steps down the sampling rate so at least the encoded stream can be decoded. Again as previously mentioned the issue is DTS Master Audio when the sampling rates (> 48kHz) and channels(>5.1) are maxed..

Just my $0.01..

I asked because that's what my post said as did yours and others.

Yes, although it's dts-MA, not DTS. DTS is lossy compression, the same kind that is used on DVDs. dts-MA (Master Audio) is lossless compression, which produces what you call "a pure stream".


As I explained in your other thread, , lossless decoding produces the same PCM no matter where it is done. Decoding in the player and the receiver produce the exact same output.


DD 5.1 and DTS are both lossy compression schemes, meaning some of the data removed during compression is not restored during decompression. Some of the data is "lost" and the resulting PCM is not an exact match of the original PCM. But, it still doesn't matter where you decode. You lose the same data when decoding in the player or the receiver.


A 5.1 PCM stream is the source data. DD 5.1 compresses the source PCM by upwards of 10-to-1. When decoded, some of the original PCM is not restored.


So, no, they are not the same. A lossy output is never going to be the same as the original PCM.


Your receiver can decode DD 5.1 and do matrix processing as well. You run into problems with decoding lossless dts-MA, which takes a lot more processing power than decoding lossy DD 5.1.


Yes, except for the limits I mentioned when it comes to processing the PCM after decoding dts-MA.


It downmixes to 5.1. The receiver knows that you only have a 5.1 system because that's how you configured your AVR. So, it takes the audio for the rear channels and folds it into the surrounds and adjusts the surround volume so that it comes out sounding right.

BIslander,

That is what I thought too, but now I am not sure. I know downmixing will occur in the DTS/DD decoders as that is part of their processing for a bitstream input. I'm not sure about about a 7.1 LPCM input though.

I asked that same question (although my system is 7.1) in another thread (sorry, can't remember what it was), and was told the the back surround channels would be lost in the case of a 7.1 LPCM signal input to a 5.1 AVR. It almost makes sense considering that you have 7.1 discrete PCM streams and only 5.1 channels to accomodate them. I don't know what/where 7.1 channels would be downmixed to 5.1 in the AVR. If you have a solid source that explains how this works, I would be interested in reading it.

Sorry. I actually gave ringfinger a more precise response in the other thread he opened on this subject in the BD Players forum. I believe the downmixing of encoded 7.1 sources occurs in the player, not the receiver, using instructions in the metadata. It is not clear to me how, or even if, downmixing occurs with a 7.1 PCM source such as 3:10 to Yuma.

I'll look in the BD player thread.

I don't know how the player would know that the AVR was 5.1 only. I don't think the BD35 has anyway to tell the player how many channels he AVR has.

3:10 to Yuma was the BD referenced when I asked what 7.1 LPCM BDs were out there.

I have the Onkyo 605 as well, so are you guys saying its better to let the bluray player to decode dts-hd rather than the receiver?

I think the AVR tells the player how many channels it supports in the HDMI handshake. That's easy enough to test, I suppose. Configure a receiver for stereo only and then decode a multichannel track in the player for PCM output over HDMI. It'll be pretty clear if you are only getting the L/R outputs from the 5.1 source instead of a stereo downmix.

In many cases, yes. If you have a 7.1 system and want to use PLIIx to matrix audio to the rear speakers, player decoding makes that possible. The same goes for Audyssey room correction. It works with PCM but not when the AVR has to do lossless decoding.

Yes, I saw that in the other thread. Makes sense, I guess. I have never seen, but it would be interesting to see, all the info that gets passed back and forth during the HDMI handshake.

This 276 page HDMI 1.3a document might be a good starting point...