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Dual Opposed AV15H Subwoofer Build - Page 18

post #511 of 801
9/3/10 at 6:32pm
Thread Starter 
In case anyone was wondering about Pulse .... here's a waterfall I pulled from the thread on it ....



Good Lord.
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post #512 of 801
9/4/10 at 2:20am
My 2 Q18's just laugh at that scene in pulse. I watched the pod race in star wars to see how much bass was in it and was reasonably disappointed. It was good but not outstanding for bass. WOTW is much more demanding in the low bass. Pulse is a crack though.

Graham
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post #513 of 801
9/4/10 at 11:29am
Thread Starter 
So I pulled out the disc again, and ran the Pulse scene, Pods Emerging Scene from WOTW, and plane crash scene from Flight of the Phoenix.

Hit 108.4db from the listening position with Pulse, 110.5 on the Pods Emerging, and 115.2 with FOTF. AVR was 0db master volume and subs calibrated to 72/73db on the SPL meter.

I'm fairly certain my PB13 was hitting higher peaks on the WOTW scene (seem to recall 119), but that was when I had it nearfield (about 4 feet from me).

Pretty darn good ... but I really need to get back to tweaking to see if I can get even better. I don't think there was any distress from the woofers, though hard to tell. There was a point where I thought I heard a "buzzing" from the right sub, but that may have just been something vibrating in the room.

STeve
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post #514 of 801
9/12/10 at 2:36pm
Hey pbc, I have a question for you. In a couple of months I'll be purchasing another Paradigm Sub 15 used from a friend for a good price. I've thought about adding another couple of subs at the back of my room to act as MBM's. I could get Funky Waves to make the cabinets as they have a design that looks just like the Paradigm cabinet. I had originally thought of the Paradigm Seismic 110 but would like to keep the look of the Sub 15 cabinet. Would two TC Sounds Epic 10's do alright? Or would you suggest something else, I would like to keep the cabinets small. Thanks.
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post #515 of 801
9/12/10 at 3:01pm
"Hit 108.4db from the listening position with Pulse, 110.5 on the Pods Emerging, and 115.2 with FOTF. AVR was 0db master volume and subs calibrated to 72/73db on the SPL meter."

pbc, at what frequency? were you just measuring the highest modal resonance?

i ask kind of to make a point that just pulling out an spl meter and recording max spl often misses lots of what is going on.

at 20hz tuning, the svs may match your quad sealed av15's. above and below, yours should kill the svs.
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post #516 of 801
9/12/10 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by weird 23 View Post

Hey pbc, I have a question for you. In a couple of months I'll be purchasing another Paradigm Sub 15 used from a friend for a good price. I've thought about adding another couple of subs at the back of my room to act as MBM's. I could get Funky Waves to make the cabinets as they have a design that looks just like the Paradigm cabinet. I had originally thought of the Paradigm Seismic 110 but would like to keep the look of the Sub 15 cabinet. Would two TC Sounds Epic 10's do alright? Or would you suggest something else, I would like to keep the cabinets small. Thanks.

If your going to have Nathan at Funky Waves build your enclosures than he would probably be the best to ask which driver would do best for an MBM. Nathan does excellent work and knows a LOT about subs so your definitely headed in the right direction.
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post #517 of 801
9/13/10 at 4:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

If your going to have Nathan at Funky Waves build your enclosures than he would probably be the best to ask which driver would do best for an MBM. Nathan does excellent work and knows a LOT about subs so your definitely headed in the right direction.

An MBM was probably the wrong chose of words, I would like something that goes down to roughly 30hz. I don't know if this would be the right setup to use, so does anyone have any suggestions for what to use at the back to pair with dual Paradigm Sub 15's at the front?
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post #518 of 801
9/13/10 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Hit 108.4db from the listening position with Pulse, 110.5 on the Pods Emerging, and 115.2 with FOTF. AVR was 0db master volume and subs calibrated to 72/73db on the SPL meter."

pbc, at what frequency? were you just measuring the highest modal resonance?

i ask kind of to make a point that just pulling out an spl meter and recording max spl often misses lots of what is going on.

at 20hz tuning, the svs may match your quad sealed av15's. above and below, yours should kill the svs.

Not in this universe.

Bosso
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post #519 of 801
9/13/10 at 5:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Hit 108.4db from the listening position with Pulse, 110.5 on the Pods Emerging, and 115.2 with FOTF. AVR was 0db master volume and subs calibrated to 72/73db on the SPL meter."

pbc, at what frequency? were you just measuring the highest modal resonance?

i ask kind of to make a point that just pulling out an spl meter and recording max spl often misses lots of what is going on.

at 20hz tuning, the svs may match your quad sealed av15's. above and below, yours should kill the svs.

Yes, of course. But the "leave the SPL meter next to the couch and check it when the scene is over" is so much more fun!

I know, rudimentary, but fun none the less.
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post #520 of 801
9/13/10 at 5:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Not in this universe.

Bosso

Bosso, what's the "simplest" way for someone to test this in room? I assume I'd need say TrueRTA and a much better mic than my Galaxy CM-140? One of these days in the next few weeks I want to take a day off work and have fun comparing my PB13 to the duals.
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post #521 of 801
9/13/10 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

at 20hz tuning, the svs may match your quad sealed av15's. above and below, yours should kill the svs.

I'd agree for dual sealed AV15s...
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post #522 of 801
9/13/10 at 3:52pm
"Not in this universe."

this is what is called a platitude. it is useless and inflammatory.

what numbers are you using bosso?

i'm looking at 115db from 4 av15h's assuming that they perfectly couple and have no power compression (ideal case) in 1/2 space with 1000 watts per driver in a total of 7 cubic feet enclosure.
114.5 is actual measured spl with 20hz tuning in the pb13 ultra from ilkka.

that seems close enough to justify my comment. on top of that, i mentioned that he may be measuring the peak of a mode. given the different locations and the bass smoothing using two non-colocated subs and i can see how the pb13u could exceed the dual dual av15h at 20hz.
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post #523 of 801
9/13/10 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Not in this universe."

this is what is called a platitude. it is useless and inflammatory.

what numbers are you using bosso?

i'm looking at 115db from 4 av15h's assuming that they perfectly couple and have no power compression (ideal case) in 1/2 space with 1000 watts per driver in a total of 7 cubic feet enclosure.
114.5 is actual measured spl with 20hz tuning in the pb13 ultra from ilkka.

that seems close enough to justify my comment. on top of that, i mentioned that he may be measuring the peak of a mode. given the different locations and the bass smoothing using two non-colocated subs and i can see how the pb13u could exceed the dual dual av15h at 20hz.

I may be wrong here, but I believe you're misreading Ilkka's charts. 114.5dB is actually the highest 20Hz CEA-2010 Ilkka measured, which is likely the PR'd LMS. The 20Hz-tuned PB13-U came in at 108.5dB 20Hz CEA-2010, and max output level before serious compression was 107dB. Whereas two AV15-Hs could be expected to do 106dB at 20Hz at xmax. Four AV15-Hs with 1kW each would do 112dB at 20Hz at xmax. Assuming perfect coupling, natch...
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post #524 of 801
9/13/10 at 7:46pm
tlag, the ilkka measurements are at 2 m, so you have to add 6db for 1 m comparability.
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post #525 of 801
9/13/10 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

tlag, the ilkka measurements are at 2 m, so you have to add 6db for 1 m comparability.

Understood; my numbers for AV15H are 2m GP, or 1m free-space...
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post #526 of 801
9/13/10 at 7:54pm
not sure what you are saying tlag.

here is what i said,

i'm looking at 115db from 4 av15h's assuming that they perfectly couple and have no power compression (ideal case) in 1/2 space with 1000 watts per driver in a total of 7 cubic feet enclosure.
114.5 is actual measured spl with 20hz tuning in the pb13 ultra from ilkka.

i added 6db to the ilkka measurements for 1m comparability. what with that statement is wrong? of course, you can get more spl with a larger enclosure, but that is a different design and a different issue.
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post #527 of 801
9/13/10 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Not in this universe."

this is what is called a platitude. it is useless and inflammatory.

what numbers are you using bosso?

i'm looking at 115db from 4 av15h's assuming that they perfectly couple and have no power compression (ideal case) in 1/2 space with 1000 watts per driver in a total of 7 cubic feet enclosure.
114.5 is actual measured spl with 20hz tuning in the pb13 ultra from ilkka.

that seems close enough to justify my comment. on top of that, i mentioned that he may be measuring the peak of a mode. given the different locations and the bass smoothing using two non-colocated subs and i can see how the pb13u could exceed the dual dual av15h at 20hz.

You are playing with Bosso's mind when you throw out those numbers...he will never argue in favor of ported subs
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post #528 of 801
9/13/10 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

are you saying One 13" driver with less then 1000Watts will match or beat 4 15" woofers with 1000Watts each??

with all the qualifications stated including different placement and how that may impact modes, i said that it *may*, and only at the 20hz tuning frequency though. again...above and below, the 4 av15h will kill the ultra.

i'm not trying to be difficult or an a-hole here, just working off the numbers.
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post #529 of 801
9/13/10 at 8:06pm
"You are playing with Bosso's mind when you throw out those numbers...he will never argue in favor of ported subs"

such was not my intention. bosso has his view and his is a good one. there are many reasons why one should favor sealed.

i was just making a statement about a particular case and unless the data refute my claim, i'm sticking with it.
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post #530 of 801
9/13/10 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

not sure what you are saying tlag.

here is what i said,

i'm looking at 115db from 4 av15h's assuming that they perfectly couple and have no power compression (ideal case) in 1/2 space with 1000 watts per driver in a total of 7 cubic feet enclosure.
114.5 is actual measured spl with 20hz tuning in the pb13 ultra from ilkka.

i added 6db to the ilkka measurements for 1m comparability. what with that statement is wrong? of course, you can get more spl with a larger enclosure, but that is a different design and a different issue.

Yep, you're statement's right, though CEA-2010 is pretty high distortion. Got confused by the 114.5dB not appearing in any charts. I get 116dB from quad AV15s in 7 cubic feet and 1kW per, which isn't enough to fully exercise them, but you knew that. So the PB13-U gets close to the quads right around 20Hz, but that's about it.
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post #531 of 801
9/13/10 at 8:27pm
i agree. if, however, you consider incomplete coupling or include some power compression and the modes that could arise from the different placement and it is possible that the pb13u may produce higher spl at 20 tuning than the quad sealed av15h with 4kw.

that's all i was saying. don't read me wrong, i'd rather have 4 x av15h sealed with 4kw power, but that isn't the issue.

bosso suggested that my comment was way off base. given the numbers, i don't think so.
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post #532 of 801
9/14/10 at 5:36am
Thread Starter 
Wouldn't the "closest" comparison be the SDX-15 dual opposed 140L test that Illka did be to my AV15Hs? I.e, the SDX box was considerably larger (140L vs 100L), with considerably more power, and the SVS stomped it from 16hz to 25hz. Now, I assume that was without any L/T or EQ applied to the SDX? But IIRC, the SDX was also supposedly to be a "tad" louder in terms of SPL down low than the AV's?

So if we're talking purely 2M ground plane quasi-anechoic un-EQ'd response, I'm guessing the PB13 would still best this setup (even duals)?

Or have I got it all wrong ... AGAIN!!
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post #533 of 801
9/14/10 at 1:03pm
you can lower motor strength and/or increase moving mass and get better bottom end efficiency. i'm not a fan of that.
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post #534 of 801
9/14/10 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

with all the qualifications stated including different placement and how that may impact modes, i said that it *may*, and only at the 20hz tuning frequency though. again...above and below, the 4 av15h will kill the ultra.

i'm not trying to be difficult or an a-hole here, just working off the numbers.

I deleted that question actually, obviously I was too slow at deleting it

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"You are playing with Bosso's mind when you throw out those numbers...he will never argue in favor of ported subs"

such was not my intention. bosso has his view and his is a good one. there are many reasons why one should favor sealed.

i was just making a statement about a particular case and unless the data refute my claim, i'm sticking with it.

My point was more about the nature of the ported curve vs the sealed curve and how Bosso won't care about a specific performance at a specific Hz since its the overall performance that matters.

I deleted my question because I have no reason to question your numbers since I can easily overlay the modelling of my TC2K ported vs my AV15X sealed. I would post it but Im not at home.

More or less, does it really matter what any sub does at 20Hz when the numbers below and above are what matters in terms of audibility.

btw, Less theory more building LTD02
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post #535 of 801
9/14/10 at 9:49pm
"btw, Less theory more building LTD02"

thanks for the kick in the balls.

:-)
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post #536 of 801
9/15/10 at 5:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Not in this universe."

this is what is called a platitude. it is useless and inflammatory.

what numbers are you using bosso?

i'm looking at 115db from 4 av15h's assuming that they perfectly couple and have no power compression (ideal case) in 1/2 space with 1000 watts per driver in a total of 7 cubic feet enclosure.
114.5 is actual measured spl with 20hz tuning in the pb13 ultra from ilkka.

that seems close enough to justify my comment. on top of that, i mentioned that he may be measuring the peak of a mode. given the different locations and the bass smoothing using two non-colocated subs and i can see how the pb13u could exceed the dual dual av15h at 20hz.

Hey, young man... it's always nice to be referred to as useless and inflammatory (as if your statement is somehow not) by someone who has never built or heard either (any) device.

I base my comment on actual in-room tests, measurements, listening to every manner of source, common sense and experience.

And your comments are based upon what, a software model of one vs outdoor 2M GP sweeps of the other.

First, if one sub will "kill" the other everywhere but right at 20Hz, then it's an empty exercise to even make the comparison. There are many reasons why this is so, but my comment simply corrected your errant statement. I had no particular desire to go into the details. I hope that's OK with you, but probably won't lose any sleep if it isn't.

Bosso
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post #537 of 801
9/15/10 at 8:32am
Thread Starter 
Bosso - I'd love to hear your comments on how the subs I built compare to the PB13, via PM if that makes more sense!?

Hmmm ... I'm golfing at Pinehurst in mid-Nov, it's only 130 miles or so from Charlotte, so go easy using your system from Nov 19 to Nov 21. I don't need any unnecessary movements in the Earth while out there, my putting game is atrocious as it is.
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post #538 of 801
9/15/10 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Bosso - I'd love to hear your comments on how the subs I built compare to the PB13, via PM if that makes more sense!?

Hmmm ... I'm golfing at Pinehurst in mid-Nov, it's only 130 miles or so from Charlotte, so go easy using your system from Nov 19 to Nov 21. I don't need any unnecessary movements in the Earth while out there, my putting game is atrocious as it is.

You need to join me in the Bahamas for golf, January 14th to 17th.

Your dual sub is better then the PB13. You have a better driver and more power. Of course you have compared them so what do you think again ?
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post #539 of 801
9/15/10 at 1:43pm
Thread Starter 
Actually Penn, I'm trying to do just that right now ...



LL
LL
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post #540 of 801
9/15/10 at 1:44pm
Thread Starter 
Only I've spent the last hour trying to get REW to work on my laptop again, and now that I have, I can't seem to get the PB13 connected to the DCX! Nothing seems to be going through to the XLR input. Wonder if there is an on/off switch for the balanced inputs on the PB13 ... Hmmm...
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