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Die unendliche Geschichte aka The Neverending Story comparison *PIX* - Page 3

post #61 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

The other thing that's sad is that most people are unaware of this sort of thing. They'll just see the film in the store or in a promotional flyer or something, and just go buy it. And because of the industry's insistence that Blu-ray is "better", they'll probably assume this is the way the film's supposed to look.

Yeah they have the same "insistence" when watching theatrical prints on miscalibrated "movieplexes" .
post #62 of 159
Looking at the level of orange in these screen caps, it seriously seems like Atreyu is about to start singing a song from South Pacific.
post #63 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

And how is the film supposed to look?

I did actually see this in the theater, and it certainly didn't look like it took place at night for a great deal of the movie.

To me, in all the BD captures, the blacks look crushed and void of any detail and the whites are positively blooming, overtaking any fine details around them.

I do agree the DVD is definitely washed out looking, but the BD is way overcompensating for it.

Compare this scene to the BD and DVD versions of the still. This is how it likely should have looked, and how I remember it (I worked off the DVD version, so fine details are going to be a bit muddy):

DVD Corrected

Edit: I tweaked the colors and levels a bit more after I hooked my laptop up to my TV, which is a bit closer to "calibrated" (I ran BD essentials through both the RGB and BD inputs) than my laptop, and found the rocks a bit orange and the levels still a bit hot.

Here's the BD for reference:

Blu-ray

and the DVD image I worked off of:

DVD

Please keep in mind that my computer monitor is not calibrated, so it may be displaying images a bit darker than the should be. So, my correction may still be a bit off, as well. However, I think it's much closer to the intent, and certainly a much better compromise between the DVD and the BD.

I do think the original DVD is really washed out, so I don't think that's the right look. However, everything looks cooked in the Blu-ray still. The blacks are crushed, the whites are hot and the colors look pumped. In short, someone needs to lay of the brightness/contrast and hue/saturation settings and learn to use curves, the channel mixer and the color balance controls.
post #64 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantchicken View Post

Looking at the level of orange in these screen caps, it seriously seems like Atreyu is about to start singing a song from South Pacific.

Ironically, he was originally supposed to be green, like he is in the book. However, it looked awful on film, so they left him looking normal.
post #65 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

However, I think the evidence that the BD is far too dark is in the amount of rock detail in the DVD. If the original print were like the BD and simply washed out on the DVD, all that rock detail would not be there. It simply would not have been exposed. All you would get are lighter rock shapes with no texture if you simply lightened the image.

On the orginal negative there will be alot of info hidden in the darker area. That can be extraced in post. Film usually dont clip the same way digital would. So its not impossible for a videotransfer to show details not visable in theaters. Its not the first time a videorelease is to bright.

But I do think they can have done contrastboosting on this release that of course makes the dark area more dark.

But I will not rule out one or the other being the most accurate to the source without some more inside information on this.
post #66 of 159
It seems the orange filter that was missing on the Do the Right Thing BD has inexplicably shown up in The Neverending Story. And as usual some of the same people(on other forums) that defended garbage transfers like Bram Stoker's Dracula are jumping on the "all previous versions are incorrect" bandwagon.
post #67 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

On the orginal negative there will be alot of info hidden in the darker area. That can be extraced in post. Film usually dont clip the same way digital would. So its not impossible for a videotransfer to show details not visable in theaters. Its not the first time a videorelease is to bright.

But I do think they can have done contrastboosting on this release that of course makes the dark area more dark.

But I will not rule out one or the other being the most accurate to the source without some more inside information on this.

I don't think any of them are accurate. The DVD and BD transfers are like wild swings of a pendulum.
post #68 of 159
OK, so where the hell can I buy the Dutch version and will it play on an American PS3?
post #69 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

OK, so where the hell can I buy the Dutch version and will it play on an American PS3?

It's confirmed region-free.

Mediadis.com seemed to give me the lowest price at checkout. There are other stores mentioned in the old thread.
post #70 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by dododge View Post

For anyone curious: it's the intersection of Water St. and Cambie St. in Vancouver, looking South. I managed to find it in Google maps the other week during an unrelated discussion of films shot in Vancover (which regularly doubles for other cities in movies). At the time I had to look around in the satellite images to find it, but I noticed while watching the BD that you can pretty much read it right off the street signs.

yup..I live at 36 Water St.

It still looks almost exactly the same as in that shot, aside from the starbucks at the left corner

They still do A LOT of filming in that area. Almost weekly during the summer.
post #71 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

So I guess it's the import for the win. How does the soundtrack compare to the enhanced for lowriders US release?

The Dutch LFE is not cooked.
post #72 of 159
I would really like to hear what the director thinks about the Blu-Ray and maybe a statement from somebody at Warner as to how they arrived at the decision to let the Blu-Ray look as it does.
post #73 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BsRoz View Post

Xylon, I don't what is causing this, but on my display your screenshots seem to display a slight red-push as opposed to mine.

I've been taking my screenshots (MPC, Haali, FFdshow) the same way for quite some time now, and I've never had any differences (also regarding BT.601/BT.709) with the generally accurate sites such as Land of Whimsy.

I hope it's not a problem on my side.

Mine is at BT.709 Haali renderer. What software do you use to convert it to .png? Photoshop?

Different filters may also push the .bmp to different degree of tinting.

Do you use the "print screen" button or "save as" in the MPC?
post #74 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

I would really like to hear what the director thinks about the Blu-Ray and maybe a statement from somebody at Warner as to how they arrived at the decision to let the Blu-Ray look as it does.

Yes I think we all what to know what happend here.

I had some extra thinking last night, and one thing that occured for me is that the orginal DVDs has the wrong colors. And its clear that they have removed something in the red area on the DVD if you compare with the dutch version. This is as I written earlier not uncommon for videotransfers. But I dont think if the colors are that mild as it is on the dutch version, there wouldnt have been that much need to desaturate the movie for DVD. So I think the orginal files have alot more tint then we have seen on earlier releases. The more I think about it, the more I think the new colors are accurate (more or less).

As for the brightness, thats another question.
post #75 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I don't think any of them are accurate. The DVD and BD transfers are like wild swings of a pendulum.

True.
post #76 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Yes I think we all what to know what happend here.

I had some extra thinking last night, and one thing that occured for me is that the orginal DVDs has the wrong colors. And its clear that they have removed something in the red area on the DVD if you compare with the dutch version. This is as I written earlier not uncommon for videotransfers. But I dont think if the colors are that mild as it is on the dutch version, there wouldnt have been that much need to desaturate the movie for DVD. So I think the orginal files have alot more tint then we have seen on earlier releases. The more I think about it, the more I think the new colors are accurate (more or less).

As for the brightness, thats another question.

If I had to guess I'd also say that Warner did not create that color palette on a whim but I also think that the intended look was to be more moderate than what we see here.

But then there has to be no guessing as all those who could tell us more are still alive and kicking so I will just wait to hear something about it
post #77 of 159
It's like they put the blu-ray under a bad tanning bed.
post #78 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Yes I think we all what to know what happend here.

I had some extra thinking last night, and one thing that occured for me is that the orginal DVDs has the wrong colors. And its clear that they have removed something in the red area on the DVD if you compare with the dutch version. This is as I written earlier not uncommon for videotransfers. But I dont think if the colors are that mild as it is on the dutch version, there wouldnt have been that much need to desaturate the movie for DVD. So I think the orginal files have alot more tint then we have seen on earlier releases. The more I think about it, the more I think the new colors are accurate (more or less).

As for the brightness, thats another question.

The problem is, in video, when you crush the blacks, it crushes the chroma, too - which often makes it look oversaturated if you don't compensate. In my examples above, compare the DVD shot Xylon posted compared to the version of it I altered. I actually pulled the chroma level back a bit after adjusting the black levels, yet it still has a much more saturated look to it than the DVD, the source of the image I made. Once the chroma starts getting really saturated, any minor change to the hue really shows up in a big way compared to something less saturated.

So, it's possible that the hue (tint) might be correct, but it's more obvious due to the overly rich chroma level brought on by the crushed setup.

I might have given them the benefit of the doubt overall on this release but for two issues:

1) The DVD isn't even in the same galaxy. If it were closer, I would be more willing to accept that the newer encode and improved capabilities of the HD transfer create a higher contrast level that more faithfully mimics the look of the stock used.

2) There have been a large number of BD releases in the last several months with what many would consider anywhere from "very increased" to "excessive" contrast levels. It seems we have a growing trend of cranking the blacks and whites to the point where all detail is lost in them in order to make the releases appear more "contrasty" and "film like". The problem is, it often makes the image become somewhat of the video equivalent of today's music releases, where everything runs at peak and results in a wave that looks more like a fat line than a real wave.

With the number of titles out there sporting excessive DNR, inadequate bit rates, altered color timing and other issues, I'm thinking I'm better off assuming the worst on this title.
post #79 of 159
don't forget that the haali renderer also gives a slight red push.
post #80 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

So, it's possible that the hue (tint) might be correct, but it's more obvious due to the overly rich chroma level brought on by the crushed setup.

I also suspect that they could have gone a bit contrasty on this one.

Quote:
2) There have been a large number of BD releases in the last several months with what many would consider anywhere from "very increased" to "excessive" contrast levels. It seems we have a growing trend of cranking the blacks and whites to the point where all detail is lost in them in order to make the releases appear more "contrasty" and "film like".

I have also seen this trend, and it also one of my fears that the studios gonna start to crank contrast to make a image look a little more "highdef". I can live with a little contrastboost to compensate for videos lack of dynamic range. But I do have a problem of blowing out the highlights. Because that gives it more of a videolook, then crushing the blacks would.

Quote:
With the number of titles out there sporting excessive DNR, inadequate bit rates, altered color timing and other issues, I'm thinking I'm better off assuming the worst on this title.

Im just gonna sit back and wait for any official reaction, I still think this new BD looks closer to film then both the DVD and the dutch BD. But im in no rush picking this one up since my money gonna go with Fellowship of the ring.
post #81 of 159
Thread Starter 
post #82 of 159
IMO, Warner should redo this title correctly (sound & pic) and exchange it for those that have purchased this title. They should provide the original Dolby Stereo (Dolby Surround) sound track as well.
post #83 of 159
and give us the original track in lossless

i'm sick of releases with new mix in lossless and original mix as a lossy afterthought
post #84 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmishFury View Post

and give us the original track in lossless

i'm sick of releases with new mix in lossless and original mix as a lossy afterthought

I'm pretty sure they consider the whole disc as an afterthought. So much so that I would make a bet in Vegas against any of the sequels getting even this quality of treatment. In other words, hang onto your DVD copies of those titles since it's all you're gonna see of them...not that part three is any big loss, but...

It's sad, though, since part one really is a great movie. The studios just don't seem to have any pride in their product anymore.
post #85 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Mine is at BT.709 Haali renderer. What software do you use to convert it to .png? Photoshop?

Different filters may also push the .bmp to different degree of tinting.

Do you use the "print screen" button or "save as" in the MPC?

I've done some research regarding my own captures, and this is what I came up with (note, not all captures are exact frames, but should give an accurate representation of the colours)

First up The Never Ending Story:

Using the 'Save Image' option in MPC (with Haali renderer) my colours seemed nearly identical to your captures Xylon, namely exhibiting a slight red push.





Using FFDshow-filter (with appropriate settings) to grab the image out of MPC, gave the the following result:



There seems to be a rather obvious change in the colour pattern.

As a result of this I decided to compare my screenshots of Inglorious Basterds to those of your comparison and the ones at Land Of Whimsy.

When once again using MPC and FFDshow grab, my result was fully identical to the screenshot over at Land Of Whimsy:



Land of Whimsy:



When using MPC 'Save Image', however, my result was pretty much identical to your screenshot (I will upload mine soon), once again exhibiting a slight red-push.



I'm quite curious to find out what is causing this difference, and most importantly which technique yields the most accurate results.
post #86 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by BsRoz View Post

I've done some research regarding my own captures, and this is what I came up with (note, not all captures are exact frames, but should give an accurate representation of the colours)

First up The Never Ending Story:

Using the 'Save as' option in MPC (with Haali renderer) my colours seemed nearly identical to your captures Xylon, namely exhibiting a slight red push.





Using FFDshow-filter (with appropriate settings) to grab the image out of MPC, gave the the following result:



There seems to be a rather obvious change in the colour pattern.

As a result of this I decided to compare my screenshots of Inglorious Basterds to those of your comparison and the ones at Land Of Whimsy.

When once again using MPC and FFDshow grab, my result was fully identical to the screenshot over at Land Of Whimsy:



Land of Whimsy:



When using MPC 'Save as', however, my result was pretty much identical to your screenshot (I will upload mine soon), once again exhibiting a slight red-push.



I'm quite curious to find out what is causing this difference, and most importantly which technique yields the most accurate results.

Well, in this case, the red push is the least of the issues. The crushing of the black levels is the real crime here.

That's the reason I won't buy the disc.
post #87 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Well, in this case, the red push is the least of the issues. The crushing of the black levels is the real crime here.

That's the reason I won't buy the disc.

It wasn't about the releases, but about the capturing techniques. In fact all those screenshots come from the same releases.
post #88 of 159
wow!!! This is the worst! It's like the star wars vasoline trick was used in the whole movie!
post #89 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by BsRoz View Post

It wasn't about the releases, but about the capturing techniques. In fact all those screenshots come from the same releases.

Understood, but the screen shot process didn't crush the black levels. The transfer process did. That's why it sucks.
post #90 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Actually if you look at the picturelink I posted some posts ago, you can see that the new version may actually be more true to the source.

The Auryn should be gold and green, and on the earlier versions it is not.

I'm of the same mindset. I think that the color of the new US BD looks more like a fairy-tale atmosphere, and I wonder if it's not actually more accurate to the film source. it's quite possible that someone meaning well worked hard on the previous master to color-correct fleshtones instead of leaving them skewed. many, many film makers alter color this way for effect, so I think that until we hear confirmation from the director or other knowledgable source (who can compare to a good 35mm release print from the era) we shouldn't be too harsh to criticize.

Also, in the new BD, for the first time, night scenes look like night. In the older DVD nighttime scenes looked like daytime or twilight... sure you could see more shadow detail but it wasn't the same feeling of fear and foreboding.

Now, WB *has* screwed up color in the past. Both previous DVD editions of Ben-Hur and Wizard of Oz had a yellow cast that was NOT representative of the original film color. So I'm not saying we should assume WB is guiltless either. My point is that the fact that colors don't look like accurate fleshtones is NOT reason enough to assume they're not accurate to the film: think of how the flesh tones and color of LOTR is so often skewed to orange/gold as well. Let's wait to more details emerge before all juding WB for making a mistake that they may not have actually made.
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