Official Panasonic TC-PxxVT20/25 Owners Thread NO PRICE TALK!! - Page 2

This is great.

Are you sensitive to flicker at all?

The Panasonic G10s flicker on all sources that I have seen whereas Pioneer plasmas do not seem to flicker one little bit.
The G20 also flickers but I am hoping that the VT20 is more akin to the Pioneer plasmas.

What are your thoughts please?

Thanks, I was wondering about that when you said it had 3 fans. I thought it was reported over on the 2010's thread the new ones didn't have fans. That's the difference of actually having one and guessing.

Picture Quality: I have to say a quick little something... I'm keeping my settings turned down for break-in, but even at these low levels it looks GREAT. It appears to have just as much depth and pop as the 8500 but with better shadow detail. I'm sure that's not a surprise for most plasma fans, but it's worth mentioning for those on the fence between the 2 technologies; LED and Plasma. On the local-dimming 8500, things get a bit tricky in the very dark shadows, but on the VT20 things look more natural, and you don't lose as many details into 'nothingness'. I think the 8500 does get a bit darker in some scenes, but the LED zones have a tendency to exhibit finicky behavior with oddly/uneven lit backgrounds, and the picture definitely shows less detail under those dark conditions, which makes me feel the 8500 black levels are somewhat misleading and inconsistent. For example, just trying to set brightness on the LED 8500 using a pluge test pattern is a little strange because the blooming from other areas of the screen slightly lights up the surrounding spaces of the test bars, making it difficult to judge what is really the proper level. At least using the human eye. I'm sure a pro with the correct instruments and experience could do it easier. But I found it challenging.

Anyway, the point is my initial feeling is the picture quality is going to be just as good as the 8500 with the advantage of having better shadow detail. Please note: I am not an expert and do not claim to be. These are just my opinions.

P.S. -- Yes I know I'm a couple posts behind in replies. Please bare with me. I'm trying to answer everyone. And to be honest, I'm not so thrilled about being "first" anymore. lol

happy nightmares, thanks for the info. As for the gaming lag, do you have any way to get a ms reading: laptop/CRT test, wireless GH guitar test? Do you play anything really timing sensitive like music/rythm games?

thanks for the answers happynightmares. I used to have a V10, what improvements do you see over the V10? Black level? shadow detai? color accuracy? AR filter?

Only someone with a lack of reading comprehension skills could come to that conclusion. Did I say Pioneers have absolutely zero line bleed? I did not. Did I say my 500M had zero line bleed? I did not. If you bothered to read my post, my primary objection was the exaggerated characterizations he chose. Let me quote them again:

"This is the first plasma television from any manufacturer I've seen in the past 2 years that did not show significant (horizontal) line bleeding. Even the Pioneer Kuro sets suffered from it, and I'm one of a few people here at the forum who returned one for that reason. The picture quality was top class, but the line bleeding was just as bad as Panasonic or Samsung, or anybody else."

I simply do not accept this. I would never characterize the line bleed on my Kuro as either "significant" or "as bad as Panasonic or Samsung, or anybody else."

Hitachi plasmas manifested it the worst, and I can only laugh if you tell me Pioneer Kuros have "significant" line bleed like the Hitachis did, having owned both, (my father owns a Hitachi plaz too), and also having listened to reports by many owners of Hitachis and Pioneers. There is no way that Kuros have it to the same extent as Panasonics and Samsungs.

The simple fact is, horizontal line bleed is an inherent flaw of plasma technology, but it does not manifest itself to the same degree on all brands or models. They are not all equal in this regard. Some are better, some are worse, and some are average. Panasonic and Samsung are average, Hitachi the worst, and the Kuros are the best.


Not calling him a liar. But I do think he is hyper-sensitive to the issue, and I think his statements were exaggerated and not measured. From his comments one would get the impression that line bleed was a significant problem on all plasmas, and that there is very little variation between brands/models. I simply do not accept this. The key phrase he used, that revealed his hypersensitivity, was:

"I'm one of a few people here at the forum who returned one for that reason."

As he admits, he's one of the few people on AVS who have returned a Kuro due to horizontal line bleed. It's quite possible his was defective, or not operating correctly. If it was such a "significant" problem, and could be seen all the time on all types of content as he sees, then how come there aren't droves of Kuro owners complaining and returning their sets? Kuro owners tend to be quite picky, seeing how they are usually videophiles and they paid a mint for their display.

Of course settings can also play a role. Perhaps he tends to watch his plasmas in torch mode. Cranking up the settings to the max will exacerbate the issue, and it will also be more readily apparent the closer you sit to the screen.



Why should it be hard to believe? Did I say Kuros had no line bleeding? Show me where. I acknowledged Kuros have line bleed. I have yet to see a plasma that doesn't have at least a minor form of it. But to imply that they all equally had a "significant" case of it is an outright exaggeration.


I don't have any issue with someone claiming that they saw line bleed on a Kuro. If you look for it, you can see it on mine. I do have a problem when they imply that the problem is equally bad on all sets.

In the past, I have not been sensitive to flicker. For example, I owned a G10 which you said flickered and bothered you, but I did not have any issues with it. So it just shows how different each person is, and no matter what test results say, the human eye and difference in vision cannot always be accounted for.

Anyway, this brings up my only real concern thus far with this TV...

I am indeed seeing what I would describe as 'flickering' especially noticeable on white or light-colored backgrounds or objects. When viewing the screen as a whole, the flickering seems to come from those lighter spaces, but it's harder to identify when staring directly at one isolated spot.

What would cause this?

I don't recall my previous plasma sets doing this. In fact, this is new to me.

Keep in mind I've been staring at a LED/LCD for the past couple weeks. Not only as a TV but also as a PC monitor. So me eyes are in serious LCD mode.

What do you guys think? Is there something wrong with the TV? Or maybe a setting I need to change? Could it be that I simply need time to adjust?

Because you smart-ass looking-for-trouble troll, it's already been established (for years) that most people are NOT sensitive to line bleeding regardless of the brand or model. So being a Pioneer Kuro has NOTHING to do with it. The return of overall sets from ALL brands is low for this reason.

And I said it was a significant problem for ME.

So please take your overly-sensitive-ego Pioneer fanboy crap somewhere else. You are being a negative force here for no reason.

And by the way, NO I don't watch "vivid" "torch" "insane" mode, and I'm getting sick of seeing people like you use that as your default go-to insult when finding somebody that doesn't worship at the same 'brand' alter as you.

And we all know that Pioneer sets are perfect. They are dipped in 24kt gold and chocolate sprinkles before they leave the factory. So go away now and enjoy your Kuro. This thread is for the new Panasonic VT20/VT25.

Well said but you did forget that the 500M and Elite models can also cure cancer.



Are we talking about Flicker on all content or just 24p? I thought the G series was the only one with flicker issues due to the 3:2 implementations and the V10's weren't. The only time I notice a flicker on my V10 is when I move it to anything other than 60 or 96Hz. Am interpreting "flicker" incorrectly? By current understanding I'd be surprised if the VT20 or VT25 did that.

Of course it remains to be seen whether the black levels start to drift six months after purchase which has got to be a worry in the back of anyones mind when buying a panasonic plasma..

Oddly enough my G10 flickers under the very same situation as your VT20. It doesn't like "bright" areas in certain scenes too. If you want to test this out & you have "No Country for Old Men" play it from say 7:30 to about 8:55 & watch the sky above Josh Brolin's head as the camera pans & see if it flickers like hell. It might.

I'm not convinced the flicker I am seeing in this regard is normal necessarily either. Just thought I'd mention this.

I got another chance to see the VT20 at Magnolia, but this time it was playing actual film. I was super impressed. It was set up right next to a 63" Samsung B590 and a V10 was also nearby. Unfortunately, the Kuro 101fd that used to be there was now gone, so I couldn't compare.

Right away, I could notice MUCH deeper colors on the VT20 compared to the 590, as well as more detail. The AR filter seems darker and more effective against reflections, and the black levels were clearly blacker as well. It was very obvious in dark scenes and reminded me of the depth I've only seen from Kuros. Dark scenes on the Samsung looked gray and foggy, while the VT20 displayed a much richer, inkier black.

But the thing that stood out the most was the motion handling of the VT20. It was buttery smooth even compared to the 590 plasma.

Anyone know when the Arizona Best Buys will get the VT20?

Greetings. But if you noticed, I never said I've seen a PDP that didn't exhibit line bleed either. It exists on my 500M, as I have stated on a number of occasions. However, there is a wide gulf between saying it merely exists on the one hand, and it is a "significant" problem on all sets.


Oh, I have seen plenty of line bleed on 2009 Panasonics, and other owners have complained about it too, so I don't discount this at all.


I did not. Just like with the Panasonic, I have noticed line bleed on Samsung plasmas as well, both in my home and in the stores. I will take some pics if you like of a B860 (I bought a second one) right beneath my 500M, so people can see that there is a clear difference.


Agreed. All anyone has to do is be trained to know what to look for, and be the type of person who is observant about these kinds of things. Some people are well-suited to making these observations, and others are totally oblivious. I have seen line bleed on all the plasmas I have bought, because I take the time to look for it, and I put content on them to see how they do. But I would not say they all showed it to the same extent. There was a wide disparity from the best to the worst.


Ahh, but you are the one claiming that it is very hard to detect on the new Panasonic VT20. (I do not dispute this, having not seen one yet). It did seem much better on the S2 vs. last year's S1, and perhaps the VT20 is even better. So this proves that there is a variation from year to year and even from model to model from within the same brand, and of course that would mean that there will be variation among different brands as well. So you are the one admitting that there is a variation, by claiming the new 3D Panasonic is superior. If line bleed does indeed vary because of different implementations of plasma technology, then you are simply helping to strengthen my point, that it is highly likely that it varied prior to 2010 as well. And in my experience that is exactly what is the case. It varied prior to 2010, and will continue to vary for the forseeable future. So then, we are back to square one, where I object to you making a blanket statement that plasmas in the last 2 years from all manufacturers exhibited this "significantly" and the Pioneers were no better. As I said, isn't it a curious coincidence that the line bleed is noticeably reduced on the 2010 Panasonics now that they are merging some of the Kuro technology with their own?


My testing includes using real content, not just static images.


If it's everywhere, how come the Pioneer threads are not brimming with complaints about this issue? Methinks you are either extremely hypersensitive to this issue, use picture settings (torch mode) which exacerbate the effects, perhaps sit very close to your TV, had a defective set, or a combination of any or all of these factors.


I don't watch boxing. Two grown men battering one another in the face is a stupid and brutal sport.


Agreed. I have read posts where people had multiple V10's and claimed to see line bleeding on one, but not on another.


I don't dispute this. I just dispute that it is a "significant" problem on all brands/models. There is quite a bit of variation between different brands/models, and overly bright contrasty picture settings can make a bit of difference too.


Whoa. Did I say I did not see line bleed? Show me where I ever said this?


No problem. I didn't think you were, and it wouldn't make any difference if you did. I criticize my own Pioneer when it's warranted. I have mentioned multiple times here on AVS that I see phosphor lag on occasion, which can be mildly annoying. I have said that I believe Sammy processing is superior. I wish my Pioneer was quieter as it is not totally buzz/whine free. With certain content I can see PWM or dithering noise or whatever the technical types want to call it if I sit close to the screen and concentrate on it. Yes, I can even see minor line bleed, if I go looking for it. But it does not jump out at me like it did on my Sammy B860 for example, which exhibited the phenomenon to a much greater degree. My 500M was noticeably plus red out of the box, and I had dial it back. You should hear me complain about the dark greenish grays on blue-sky days when the sun shines in the room. Nothing is perfect. In a dim or darkened room my 500M is the nicest display I've seen around the 50 inch size, especially when you account for the wide viewing angles. Sony's OLED is only 11 inches, so it is not really comparable. But I think the B8500 will beat my 500M in a brighter room. In the dark it cannot match the Kuro. I will probably buy one in the near future to find out just how well it competes.


Makes no difference to me if they were. I would be glad if Panasonic surpassed Pioneer, because then I would have more options than just 50 or 60 inches, and of course the newer Panasonics can offer more features and gizmos than the older Pioneers, along with lower energy consumption. If Panasonic surpassed the Kuros I could acquire a nice 42 inch for the bedroom. Currently there are no 42 inch plasmas that impress me enough to want to keep one around for a while. So I am looking forward to the Pioneers being surpassed.


Ok. Fair enough. I can agree with that. But your comments certainly did leave one with the impression that there were no variations among brands, and that they were all "significantly" bad--so bad in fact, that you returned sets and tried other technologies. You must be verrrry sensitive to this issue to want to abandon plasmas altogether (at least for a time).


To you as well.

I am from the UK and the G10 and G20 versions we have over here are supposed to be 96Hz with 24p content but they flicker badly on all of the content that I have seen (inputs of 720p@60Hz and 1080p@24Hz), especially on bright scenes. No other plasma brands (Pioneer, LG or Samsung) flicker so am very confused why this is the case.

There are many threads on flicker with reference to the G10 in the UK and I was hoping that the VT20 would be using some modified Pioneer driver and processing boards. The Pioneers drive the screen at 72Hz with 1080p (24Hz) sources and these definitely don't flicker (I have a 7th generation but am looking at upgrading).

For those that can see flicker on the G10 or even new G20, does the VT20 exhibit the same problems?

happy nightmares has stated a "maybe" but is not particular sensitive.

"Only someone with a lack of reading comprehension skills could come to that conclusion." --Documaker

I see we've resorted to back-handed insults. I can't say that was a classy move. I'm not sure I ever stated that you said there was absolutely no line bleeding. As you quoted, happy nightmare mentioned his line bleed was as bad as the Panasonic and Samsungs. You then went on to say that you doubted what he was claiming was true. So you were concluding that he in fact did not see just as much line bleeding in his Kuro as his other TVs despite his claims. I do acknowledge that it is sometimes hard to gauge people's tone on internet message boards, but your tone did sound accusatory. When you say that you doubt the validity of someone's statement, there's only so many ways you can interpret that. If you had said you doubted that all Kuros exhibit such behavior, then that's one thing. But you doubted his Kuro did and doubted what he had seen. Why would he lie or exaggerate? What would he have to gain? We can sit here and play semantics games but what's the point? All I can say is that you could have easily have just stated that not all Kuros exhibit significant line bleed despite the fact that his might have. It's possible that when he saw significant line bleed on his Pioneer that was equivalent to the Panasonic and Samsung he just assumed that all plasmas were like that. That would have been his error and easily correctable. I suppose I should have said is it so hard to believe his Kuro had significant line bleed. It doesn't really change the point of my post which was the fact that you were claiming what he was seeing was not true and that you did so in a very accusatory tone. If someone had retorted to one your posts in the manner in which you did his, would you not also have felt you were being accused? I don't know happy nightmare personally, but it didn't seem like he deserved that. I know this is just some internet message board, and who really cares?

This seems to be the case, I saw line bleeding on 2 different Pioneer 6020s but did not see it on any of the Elites , I did see it on my old Panny TH-58PX600u ...but not as so much to get an lcd which imo is an inferior technology (that I do not worship either) I do own a cheap Costco Vizio XVT lcd for viewing in the family room /basement ( didn't want any reflections from the fireplace) and it is more than adequate and looks good in HD (not so much in sd ) I currently have a 141fd as my main display and have NOT seen any line bleed so far. So to my eyes line bleeding is a case by case problem with plasma technology. Have you seen any on the Elite displays especially the 141fd ? Thanks

I do not like boxing either ....I prefer mma...

Happy Nightmares,

THanks for sharing your opinions. They seem even handed which is fantastic! I appreciate the details you've given us!

Hey...no reason to dis the Kuros because of one owners "problem"(I am an Elite 141fd owner) they are great displays ....just a little overpriced and they do NOT have the best black levels out of any display so I wish people would quit saying they do. I think the Panasonics are a better value imo.

Thanks for the review happy nightmares.

Just one question: by "line bleeding", do you mean the green phosphor trails you can see on fast moving objects, a problem which seems to affect most plasma tvs (they're usually more noticeable on b&w movies)?

Thanks.

happy nightmares,

I got a chance to see a VT20 at MHT/BB, it is really a nice looking set and it was made in Japan too.

On the flicker, still not sure exactly what mode your are using, but the G10 only did well with the 3:2PD at 60hz not the 24P/48hz. If you are seeing flicker on the VT20 for the same mode 3:2PD/60hz, the only thing different would be the VT's faster decay phosphors for the 3D modes rates. It would not surprise me that one might see some flicker at 60hz. You might try the 24p/96hz, that should be closer to the VT's 3D normal mode and should reduce/eliminate it. And for BR is the desirable setting anyway. With each person's eyes exhibiting difference persistence, you might be at some threshold the shorter decay exposed.

As I recall from old CRT computer monitor days even they has some trade-offs of faster phosphors vs flicker vs a solid image but with imaging smearing trade-off. If this applies for the 3D plasma phosphors, it does pose interesting thread discussions.

Perhaps people should put a little asterisks next to their statements about Pioneers having best blacks*

*at screen sizes larger than Sony's 11" OLED

Please test this.

The input lag stat will make-or-brake this TV for me (intended use = 3D monitor)

-scheherazade



p.s.

http://mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/rss.cgi?news_id=427

Looks like the input, if strictly 1.4a, may be capped at 1080p@24hz (x2) when in full HD 3d.

The HD guru review mentions 3d at 120hz refresh rate.
This means one of two things (that I can think of) :

1) The tv goes beyond hdmi 1.4a spec, allowing an input signal of 1080p @ 60hz (x2)

2) The tv adheres to hdmi 1.4a spec, and only accepts input as high as 24hz x2. Then the panel itself merely strobes multiple times per eye per frame to get you 120hz refresh (however content is limited to 24hz).

Will be interesting to find out more as more info comes out...

Yeah I'm wanting to see how 3D technology impacts input lag, if at all. I PMed you if you didn't see it, the best option is a newer test using game consoles, otherwise the stopwatch will work in a pinch.

That's true - for consoles. They suffer extra lag with scaling.

For a PC, you'd generally be using the tv at the native resolution (1080p). Which also has lag, just less.

You can still run a time-code test off of a PC, testing at multiple resolutions (console res, and native res).
Results will still be valid.

-scheherazade

Thanks for impressions, Happy.
Keep posting, please..
And may be you could make some more pictures?
Also, did you noticed any image retentions?

Nightmares,

we need pictures!

+1