AE Speaker kits are available... - Page 3

I don't really have a 'dig deep' subwoofer yet. I'm still a condo dweller. I'm still trying to convince myself to get it now. The devil side of me whispers to just turn the gain down that's is all. Anyway, the AE kits look interesting.

Which one of the options below is better and why? And if any of these options were to be assembled, how do they compare to ULS-15, SVS Ultra, Rythmik, and of course the Submersive?

Option #1:
x1 P1512 cabinet $499.00 ea (Intro. price)
x1 TC Sounds LMS-R 15" DVC Subwoofer $539.00 ea.
x2 TC Sounds VMP 18" Passive Radiator $269.10 ea.
x1 Crown XTi 1000 $499 ea.

Total: $2075.20

Option #2:
x1 P1512 cabinet $499.00 ea (Intro. price)
x2 TC Sounds LMS-R 15" DVC Subwoofer $539.00 ea.
x2 Crown XTi 1000 $499 ea.

Total: $2575

Option #3:
1x P1024 cabinet $429 ea. (intro. price)
2x Morel Ultimate UW 1058 10" $394.40 ea.
4x TC Sounds VMP 12" Passive Radiator $179.10 ea.
x2 Crown XTi 1000 $499 ea.

Total: $2932.20

nith,

Just a few questions for you.

Are you thinking of having AE make special cabinets to hold the TC Sounds drivers or do these drivers drop in John's cabinets?

Have you ran any of these combinations through either Winisd or Unibox to see how they model?

Also, I would really suggest looking for a different amp besides the XTi1000. Those are not going to do those drivers justice in my opinion.

James

Depending on the tuning you go with, you can expect another 1.5dB or so from the P1212 kit. The AV12X has higher Xmax and the pair of 15" PR's can cleanly displace much more air than the ports in the PB12.


I'm not familiar with the Epik Knight. I don't see it on their website. Do you have a link to any info?

John

I guess my first question would be why you would be looking at using the TC woofers and Morel instead of the woofers we designed the kits around. Quite simply you will get significantly less performance for your money spent. We designed the kits not only to look good but also to take advantage of the 23mm Xmax of the drivers with a reasonable amount of power. Either 1000W plate amps or a 1200-1500W channel of a pro audio amplifier will get you near the full 23mm Xmax of the drivers which will give you some very good levels. We also designed the drivers to be efficient across the board from the high motor strength(nearly identical to the LMS-R at BL^2/Re of 114) to the high efficiency(3db more than the LMS-R) at the upper regions. The AV15H and PR18's in theory are going to give you 90% of the output of the LMS-R and VMP's. This is at less than half the cost for the drivers. They'll also require MUCH less power to get the same levels. They are a much more practical option, as getting that extra 10% requires significant increase in power. In reality getting the same levels with the LMS-R requires significantly more power. In addition to all of that, the AV15H has less than 1/10 the inductance so the upper bass response will be MUCH lower distortion as well. I could have designed a driver with more than 23mm Xmax. However in most cases it is not practical from a cost standpoint or power standpoint.

The PR's are in a similar situation. The cost is over 2x, for no more performance. Actually the extremely stiff suspension of the VMP's makes them much less effective. For a passive radiator to work properly it needs to have soft suspension. A passive radiator is a direct equivalent to a port. It is a mechanical piston that moves back and forth much like the air in a port moves back and forth. The air does not have a suspension though and the PR's do. In order to have the closest approximation without losses, the softer the compliance, the better. The VMP's have very stiff suspension. This means you will have much higher losses around tuning, but also need much higher mass to reach the same tuning. In the case of the P1512 cabinet you need nearly double, 5000 grams instead of 2500 to get tuning around 16hz. Here is a graph of the two options with 1500W applied which gets the AV15H to it's excursion limits at the peak above tuning. Red is the LMS-R and the green is the AV15H.



Overall the extra excursion of the LMS-R can give you a total of about 1.5dB more output overall at max excursion. However it isn't all that practical to achieve that extra output. You'll need 2x the power(3000W) at 20hz to even equal the same level as the AV15H and you'd need 3x the power(4500W) to get that 1.5dB extra out of the system. As you are applying that much power you have more thermal losses and still won't reach those levels in a real world application. However for even LESS money you could build the P1524 kit with the dual AV15's and 4 18" PR's. You would have 4.5dB more output capability on the low end and you'd have about 9db more efficiency in the upper bass regions.

I don't like to get into comparisons with retail products too much, especially the submersive since I work with Mark on a daily basis. In reality though you are comparing retail subwoofers to a kit that does need some work to be done. In terms of output though, a single P1512 kit with the AV15H and 18" PRs will best any of the listed subs above by a good margin around tuning. You'd need 3-4 sealed 15's to match the displacement of the AV15H and pair of 18" PR's at that point. Below the tuning point the PR cabinet will roll off quicker and multiple sealed drivers will have the advantage. If you're looking to get to 10hz, the P1512 or P1524 wouldn't be for you. You need multiple sealed 15's to get down this low with good levels. That is why we offer the P1500 which is the dual sealed AV15H cabinet. Having a pair of 15" drivers it's also more efficient up top. The dual sealed however needs EQ/DSP to flatten the response where the P1512 is quite flat down to 16hz already and doesn't need that EQ. The PR cabinets you can throw on a 500W or 1000W plate amp and you're ready to go. They are a simple kit that gives great output at a good price.

John

+1 on almost everything...

If looks are important - the TC PR's are much nicer looking, but you are correct that the AESpeakers PR's will do exactly the same thing for less money.

Dual Opposed may not give you the same output as a PR setup, and will cost more money for the drivers, as well as requiring more amp power. Though you should check the output numbers in WinISD.

John:
Thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to provide a thorough inputs. It is very enlighten. The performance output of P1512 w/ AV15H + 2x 18" PR is astounding . It's going to be in a living room so size (24 width, even 20) is a major factor. The P1012/P1024 size is perfect but unfortunately it's only for 10" driver. Is there any plan to offer sealed or opposing sealed cabinet for 12" driver, but still maintains 16" width?

penngray:
There is nothing against AE drivers. There is no performance difference but for some reason I got drown into the modular design of the TC driver. Another aspect was the xmax, but at the time I did not consider the power requirement to get it there. As for the TC PR, it was matter of staying consistent with the same brand and plus it has modular tuning weight rings.

Warpdrv:
You hit the head. They rather look good.

===
The thing is, assembled sub kit together is really making me nervous. And especially when it requires tuning to be done. I'm may be journeying into a no man's land . For odd reason, I don't feel the same way when I customized, modified, and extreme watercooled a DIY PC.

When you guys are talking about EQ-ing the assembled sub kit or DIY, this can be done automatically with SVS AS-EQ1, Velo SMS-1 or AVR w/ MultEQ XT?

john said my 1152 cab is ready just waiting for red mahogany veneer to finish, should be here in 2 weeks. will post pict when i have them in hand or or crate. i will be ordering a ep4000 or ipr1600 (waiting on the outcome of chuck's test.)

All I can say is John's cabinets appear to be incredibly capable and at the same time look gorgeous. You guys are extremely addicting! I am completely caught by the DIY bug. That being said, I am a complete DIY sub noob. I don't want to hijack this thread but I am seriously pondering doing some lfe damage (plus music though) with either John's package deal kits or the infamous THT's in my roughly 500sq ft.finished soon to be fully treated basement. I was originally going the SVS or Epik sealed Empire route but wisdom would suggest I could save a considerable aamount of money going the DIY route. Am I delusional in thinking one or two 30" wide dog houses I mean THT's would crush all comers? While I would love the aesthetics of John's cabinets, I really could bode well with perhaps a inferior look for the basement. Anyways, the atmosphere around here is great and thanks for all of the informative posts.

Justin

No.

(you're not delusional, that will destroy)

Interesting, hadn't even thought of the fact that being 3db more efficient the LMS-R would need double the power before it equals the AV15H. I was also considering 4 LMS-R's before settling on the AV15's instead. Glad I did as a) it was well over $1,000 less and b) I could only fit one pro amp on my rack (after selling my Sunfire amp to make room for it!) and the biggest I could find in my price bracket was the RMX-5050 which wouldn't have been anywhere near enough for 4 LMS-Rs and is almost perfect for 4 AV15's at 1800 watts or so per side (800 to 900 per driver).

John - BTW, finally got my 3rd and 4th drivers that were MIA from Shenker ... they look great! Will hopefully have them up and running within the next two weeks.

Sent you an Email, but here is an archived link: http://web.archive.org/web/200802120...tOverview.html

Think the P1512 with your drivers would put out more?

It's difficult to get the full comparison without driver parameters to really model. Based upon the amplifier power though, you should be able to get significantly more output with a P1512 than with the Knight. The AV15H likely has much more motor strength and efficiency as well. In terms of distortion you will find few drivers at any cost that can compare to the AV15H, especially in the critical upper bass region.

John

go with the xti4000... there is no reason to even consider the xti1000 for $499 when you can get a brand new xti4000 with warranty for $625 on ebay.1250w per channel at 4ohm or 1600w at 2ohm and built in dsp

I am very disturbed by John's post, not because the AV15 might be better than the LMS-R for this application but because we have a case of one manufacture clearly stepping on the other in order to show an advantage. I think there are much more professional ways to compete. This post was painful to write, and I hope I never have to do something like this again.


Because you own a Morel or TC woofer or they simply don't work well in ported boxes? Or you feel your woofers have more value? Is your opinion or some facts you know about other brands, or a fancy sales pitch designed to help you sell your brand? Do you see SVS and JL Audio putting each other’s products down? Do you see TC Sounds or Morel putting your products down?


If your woofer 114 N^2/W at 2" peak to peak like the LMS-R still is? If you're using an overhung coil with a steel gap plate, flux lines simply have fringe and fringe fields create a false sensitive boost at neutral and a deficit at high excursions which is the non-linear effects that LMS coils correct for.


3dB higher SPL will get you more SPL until BL or suspension limitations set it, we can look at plenty of good subwoofers that perform well with just 87dB and plenty others that work well at 90dB - they generally tradeoff advantages and disadvantages.


Inductance does not cause distortion, its the linearity of the inductor and because all speakers need a Low pass filter, inductance is a natural part of any crossover. Do you know how much distortion the LMS-R inductance addes to the overall output? Answer me this, how do you cope for your aluminum former and eddy currents that are generated in them? I know they will add distortion that is especially audiable with thinner coils and lighter moving mass even at low voltages. The LMS-R does not have a conductive former.


Now you're just being flat out disrespectful. You know TC Sounds reads these forums right?, and I know SVS also read your comments about your AV15 blowing away their PB13 Ultra. I find your comments about SVS and TC Sounds utterly disrespectful considering your competing position.


Work properly according to who? Now you are suggesting our products don't actually work properly??? Do you even own an VMP? you have some nerve! Actually you don't need a soft suspension for a passive to work and Actually its ONLY -0.5dB difference with 10 times the stiffness when you power match the systems tuned to the same frequency. More so, the tuning is not merely a function of the radiator and the box volume, but rather those + the driver so when you Actually use a very soft suspension the other two components can dominate the response and you need a very low PR Fo in order to achieve the same tuning from one with a stiffer suspension. I modeled the AE 18" PR with 1600 grams against the VMP and it needed 2100 grams to match it (it can go up to 2500). The Fo of the AE PR is as you say, 4Hz or so an the TC is 11.5Hz - both produce a final tuning of ~22Hz in the system i tested ( two pr's in 4 cubic feet). That's only 500 grams more not to mention a very durable suspension to deal with that kind of mass - again your analysis of the VMP is misleading the VMP's stiffness comes from its tall thick surround which remains very linear even at 3" peak to peak. If you can do that with a smaller surround and a smaller spider then kudos - that's your story to sell. Our VMP's are designed to not break even at high acceleration - remain very linear and adjust the tuning a full octave and I’m pretty sure they actually work properly.


So in other words, the one advantage you saw in your model you are now suggesting its not even an advantage. Again stop trying to analysis products you don't sell.


I see, how you know all about the thermal properties of the LMS-R?


So now the LMS-R does not have the 1.5dB advantage, but rather the 4.5dB disadvantage and then 9dB disadvantage in the upper bass? BTW You modeled the LMS-R with Le of 4.5mH, but that was the Ls,- the Le is actually lower then that. Your disrespect for other brands is completely unwarranted.


really?


There you go again, its not just better than the LMS-R it will “best” it “by a good margin around tuning”


I have never once said TC products have better value or performance than AE products and I only expect the same in return, unfortunately that is now not the case. I think its important for competing brands to be respectful. I hope this is the last time I have to read a thread like this.

..."Honey...grab me a beer and get the popcorn please"...

Uh, oh... It looks like someone struck a nerve.

FWIW, Kyle your response was far more unprofessional than what you're accusing John of. It's not his fault that you can buy 6 of his AV15 drivers for the price of some of yours.

How dare John answer someone's question. That's totally unacceptable.

Your reading comprehension must have been suffering while you were foaming at the mouth in anger. He's comparing 2 AV15's now, and was comparing 1 AV15 before. Hence the 6dB output shift.

It's a good thing you haven't because you'd be certainly be stretching the truth if you start claiming that your $1500+ LMS Ultra driver is a better value than John's $250 driver.

Hey, if you think his numbers or graphs are wrong feel free to post up the right ones and educate people instead of going off on some rant about a lack of secret handshake professionalism where competitors don't publicly compete.

IMHO there are so many real world variables not accounted for in the models involved, that these paper races using perfectly linear simulations based on small amplitude driver behavior are not something that you should form an opinion on a driver's superiority over another with. Neither should you blindly take the manufacturer/engineer's selling points as fact either. Until independent 3rd party testing of products is seen or I'd tried them myself I'd take everything with a grain of salt. (No disrespect intended to either John or Kyle here but they do both have a horse in the race. )

Are there any pics of the sealed P1500? I may have overlooked them, but all of the pics in both AE Kit threads seem to be PR designs.

BTW, is it okay to mix sealed and PR? I currently own a pair of sealed 13" and I'm interested in AE Kits.

Thanks

Anyone have any of the new cabinets that can comment on performance? Any real world measurements (Maybe outdoor response at 1w/1m)?

Im still considering the P1512.

I'd like to second the above requests especially regarding the P1500.

Someone over in the DIY forum just received their kit, but they have not assembled it yet. Check in over there every once in a while for updates.

I believe John (the AE owner) brought a P1512 to Warpdrv's subwoofer get-together last summer. There is a large thread with comments about the event as a whole and specific comments on that sub. I read nothing but extremely good things about that sub (and by extension, the cabinet). You guys should check it out.

Yes, the design is identical - and build quality of the new boxes are the same, but more nicer looking...

I'm just wondering if 1 or these would beat 2 captivators

Take a rest and enjoy what you have.