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SACD Optional 50-KHz Cutoff Filter

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
I prefer no cutoff filter so I can have playback up to 100 KHz and hear the extra presence of harmonic overtones. I've read that if you allow playback up to 100 KHz, it could damage your speakers? If that's true, would they die gradually or instantly? What if I have a player that doesn't give the SACD specs? Should I not play SACDs on it in order to protect my speakers? I contacted Oppo about their BDP-83 and they claim that the 50-KHz cutoff filter is engaged so that DSD modulation noise won't be heard. However, I have a Pioneer Elite DV-58AV which doesn't state whether or not it uses a 50-KHz cutoff filter. If I don't get an answer to this from Pioneer, how can I tell whether or not it uses a 50-KHz cutoff filter?
post #2 of 25
Quote:


I've read that if you allow playback up to 100 KHz, it could damage your speakers?

Do you have an amp capable of reproducing these frequencies?
post #3 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

I prefer no cutoff filter so I can have playback up to 100 KHz and hear the extra presence of harmonic overtones. I've read that if you allow playback up to 100 KHz, it could damage your speakers? If that's true, would they die gradually or instantly? What if I have a player that doesn't give the SACD specs? Should I not play SACDs on it in order to protect my speakers? I contacted Oppo about their BDP-83 and they claim that the 50-KHz cutoff filter is engaged so that DSD modulation noise won't be heard. However, I have a Pioneer Elite DV-58AV which doesn't state whether or not it uses a 50-KHz cutoff filter. If I don't get an answer to this from Pioneer, how can I tell whether or not it uses a 50-KHz cutoff filter?

You do understand that DSD is a 1 bit system with noise shaping to effectively increase the dynamic range in the audible spectrum to 20 bits (120dB). Everything above about 24KHz is pure noise and an average dynamic range of less than 6dB (1 bit).
post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 
My receiver's specs claim that at least its front channels can go up to 100 KHz. Yet being that my receiver is capable of downmixing when using the multi-channel analog inputs, I'm not sure if it's doing an analog-to-PCM conversion whether it's downmixing or not. Also, my speakers each have a 6&1/2" woofer and a 3/4" tweeter.

Are you saying that everything above 20 KHz would be noise whether you have a 50-KHz cutoff filter or not? If so, then DVD-AUDIO or the new Blu-ray audio would be better formats. However, the problem with those formats is that there isn't as much stuff out there as there is on SACD.
post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

Do you have an amp capable of reproducing these frequencies?

Or ears that can hear that high? Or speakers that can play that high? Or source material that contains frequencies that high?

--Ethan
post #6 of 25
Quote:


My receiver's specs claim that at least its front channels can go up to 100 KHz.

What amp is this?
post #7 of 25
On a good day I can hear maybe 15 kHz. I can't even imagine what the "extra presence of harmonic overtones" from a 100 kHz bandwidth signal would even sound like.
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

What amp is this?

I own a Yamaha YHT-370 2006-model HTiB system which came with the HTR-5935 receiver. Its manual and specs can be found at this link.
post #9 of 25
I have a feeling that your HTIB doesn't have 100KHz of bandwidth, nor do the speakers that came with it.
post #10 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

I have a feeling that your HTIB doesn't have 100KHz of bandwidth, nor do the speakers that came with it.

The manual to the HTR-5935 receiver lists the stereo CD section as going up to 100 KHz in the specifications. I know that the tweeters in my speakers are only 3/4". I believe that is small. Will smaller tweeters handle higher frequencies?
post #11 of 25
Quote:


The manual to the HTR-5935 receiver lists the stereo CD section as going up to 100 KHz in the specifications.

...but says nothing about the amplifier, it does mention that the fronts only go up to 25KHz though.
You realise that the limits of human hearing are around 20KHz?
post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

...but says nothing about the amplifier, it does mention that the fronts only go up to 25KHz though.
You realise that the limits of human hearing are around 20KHz?

That's true, but is it possible that if a system can reproduce much higher tones, it might make the tones within our hearing range sound better?
post #13 of 25
the CD input section claims a 100KHz bandwidth, but CD's are sampled at 44.1KHz.
The amplifier section makes no claims, and the speakers have an upper limit of 25KHz.
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

That's true, but is it possible that if a system can reproduce much higher tones, it might make the tones within our hearing range sound better?

I think the answers to all your questions are "No" and "Don't worry about it". You should be able to match them up.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I think the answers to all your questions are "No" and "Don't worry about it". You should be able to match them up.

That pretty much sums it up.
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

...Are you saying that everything above 20 KHz would be noise whether you have a 50-KHz cutoff filter or not? If so, then DVD-AUDIO or the new Blu-ray audio would be better formats. However, the problem with those formats is that there isn't as much stuff out there as there is on SACD.

Better? Well since you are talking technically and will beyond anything that relates to human experience or perception: then yes it can be better above 24KHz. DVD-A is LPCM and LPCM is fundamentally different than DSD. 192/24 DVD-A would give you an even 144dB dynamic range through the entire frequency band and low THD up to the Nyquist filter of about 95KHz as long as no (or minimal) noise shaping was used. Of course to you and any human this means absolutely nothing, however your cat my be more impressed with 192/24 LPCM than DSD.
post #17 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Better? Well since you are talking technically and will beyond anything that relates to human experience or perception: then yes it can be better above 24KHz. DVD-A is LPCM and LPCM is fundamentally different than DSD. 192/24 DVD-A would give you an even 144dB dynamic range through the entire frequency band and low THD up to the Nyquist filter of about 95KHz as long as no (or minimal) noise shaping was used. Of course to you and any human this means absolutely nothing, however your cat my be more impressed with 192/24 LPCM than DSD.

Then it is a shame that SACD prevailed on the market and that there's not a huge library of stuff on DVD-A! I understand that Blu-ray Audio is uncompressed multi-channel 192-KHz, 24-Bit PCM, which would be even better than DVD-A because of the uncompressed audio. So let's hope that Blu-ray Audio gets it right and sells tons of well-known recordings taken from the original analog studio masters, and when possible, creates multi-channel remixes of those recordings as well!

I hope I'm not being too condescending: I read Braille and use screen magnification. They say that blind people's other senses are heightened. I think what they mean is that they rely more heavily on their other senses. I have noticed subtle differences between stereo CD and stereo SACD editions of the same track. If 192-24 PCM is better than DSD, then I can imagine what I might be missing!
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

...I understand that Blu-ray Audio is uncompressed multi-channel 192-KHz, 24-Bit PCM, which would be even better than DVD-A because of the uncompressed audio....If 192-24 PCM is better than DSD, then I can imagine what I might be missing!

DVD-A is lossless (MLP) compressed so there is no difference (all other things being equal) from LPCM BD (or TrueHD/DTS MA compressed BD audio) as far as SQ goes. All would have the exact bit for bit identical after decoding. Also the premise that since you can hear a subtle difference between CD and SA-CD but you are still missing something that 192/24 LPCM will deliver is false. The subtle differences you are hearing would be from factors like less quantization errors and is 100% unrelated to ultra high frequency response (above 20KHz) that you can't hear.

Your hearing is not physically improved (or frequency extended) because of sight problems, but your concentration and processing of details is far better.
post #19 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

DVD-A is lossless (MLP) compressed so there is no difference (all other things being equal) from LPCM BD (or TrueHD/DTS MA compressed BD audio) as far as SQ goes. All would have the exact bit for bit identical after decoding. Also the premise that since you can hear a subtle difference between CD and SA-CD but you are still missing something that 192/24 LPCM will deliver is false. The subtle differences you are hearing would be from factors like less quantization errors and is 100% unrelated to ultra high frequency response (above 20KHz) that you can't hear.

Your hearing is not physically improved (or frequency extended) because of sight problems, but your concentration and processing of details is far better.

At least we agree that the only thing my lack of sight does is make me more aware of certain things. OK. So if sound quality doesn't make a difference beyond 20 KHz, what are the goods and bads of 1-bit 2.8MHz and 24-bit 192-KHz PCM?
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

At least we agree that the only thing my lack of sight does is make me more aware of certain things. OK. So if sound quality doesn't make a difference beyond 20 KHz, what are the goods and bads of 1-bit 2.8MHz and 24-bit 192-KHz PCM?

That's can be a subjective and open ended question. I list just a couple.

DSD Advantage:

More analog sound (or at least wave form)

DSD Disadvantage:

No DSP possible so must be converted to LPCM.

24/192 LPCM Advantage

Easey to work with and apply DSP effects and an industry standard

24/192 Disadvantage

Still "saw tooth" digital.

Someone with more technical expertise may want to add in.
post #21 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

That's can be a subjective and open ended question. I list just a couple.

DSD Advantage:

More analog sound (or at least wave form)

DSD Disadvantage:

No DSP possible so must be converted to LPCM.

24/192 LPCM Advantage

Easey to work with and apply DSP effects and an industry standard

24/192 Disadvantage

Still "saw tooth" digital.

Someone with more technical expertise may want to add in.

So are you saying that DSD is less synthetic sounding than 192-24 PCM? I imagine standard 44.1-KHz, 16-bit ol' fashion CD is inferior to DSD and 192-24. Correct?
post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

I imagine standard 44.1-KHz, 16-bit ol' fashion CD is inferior to DSD and 192-24. Correct?

Not correct. More here:

The Emperor's New Sample Rate

--Ethan
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

I have noticed subtle differences between stereo CD and stereo SACD editions of the same track. If 192-24 PCM is better than DSD, then I can imagine what I might be missing!

Are they mastered the same?
post #24 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Not correct. More here:

The Emperor's New Sample Rate

--Ethan

I guess once you go beyond 15 or 20 KHz, it's pointless to waste all that disk space on quality. Maybe the next steps should be (1) how much to compress audio data without even a good ear noticing the artifacts, and (2) releasing surround remixes in dolby digital 5.1 and/or 7.1 format. Notice I didn't say DTS? I haven't noticed a difference between Dolby Digital and DTS, except for volume, which might have something to do with how my player and/or receiver handles the formats. Now it looks like unless someone has something to say in defence of DVD-A or SACD, compressed music should be discussed somewhere else!
post #25 of 25
With SACD and DVD-A, the dialog shouldn't be limited to 2 channel listening. With multichannel considered, there certainly are distinct differences!
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