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3DTV recorders?

post #1 of 32
3/18/10 at 10:11pm
Thread Starter 
I currently own the hauppauge HD-PVR to record HD to PC archive.
Is there any rumors on anyone making a similar product to record 3D from the TV (e.g. World Cup in 3D on ESPN)?
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post #2 of 32
3/19/10 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

I currently own the hauppauge HD-PVR to record HD to PC archive.
Is there any rumors on anyone making a similar product to record 3D from the TV (e.g. World Cup in 3D on ESPN)?

Good question. As the current cable/satellite methods are all frame compatible, there is a good chance that your current set-up will record the 3D programs as well as the HD ones (same would likely go for cable/satellite set top boxes).
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post #3 of 32
3/19/10 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Good question. As the current cable/satellite methods are all frame compatible, there is a good chance that your current set-up will record the 3D programs as well as the HD ones (same would likely go for cable/satellite set top boxes).

Exactly. If you can record now, you should be able to record 3D. In fact, the 3D demo loop running on a sat right now can be recorded just like a regular HD channel. I know because I have it.
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post #4 of 32
3/19/10 at 7:02pm
Cgott,
The HD-PVR records ATSC standard video component display content in H.264 format for storage and playback on your PC ready so your current setup will not work since It does not record compressed and encoded broadcast content. You need a PVR STB or possibly a cable or satellie broadcast compatible TIVO to record an actual progam that you can play back on the STB and send to your 3D HDTV.
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post #5 of 32
3/19/10 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

The HD-PVR records component display ready ATSC standard video content so your current setup will not work since It does not record compressed and encoded broadcast content. You need a PVR STB or possibly a cable or satellie broadcast compatible TIVO to record an actual progam that you can play back on the STB and send to your 3D HDTV.

Even then, why woudln't it record the "display ready" side by side or over/under images in complete frames? Granted, there could be an issue forcing the final display to correctly handle these (though I understand that the Samsung, at least, allows you to force a particular 3D display mode).
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post #6 of 32
3/19/10 at 7:42pm
From my thread on the Comcast broadcast of the Masters golf tourney in 3D:

Quote:


The 3D Masters coverage will be produced by ESPN using the NEP SS 3D truck. Comcast will ingest the feed at Comcast Media Center in Denver and then transmit it to customers using the 1080i, "side-by- side" frame-compatible 3D HD format. The 3D broadcasts can be received by Comcast's latest HD set-tops and transmitted over HDMI connections to new 3D TV sets without requiring any software update to the set-tops. Comcast does plan to make a firmware upgrade to its HD set-tops later this year to make sure that they can support the program guide and other functions in 3D.

I don't know if my SA HD DVR differs from the Hauppague HD PVR but I did enter into a live chat session with a Comcast tech - here is what he said:

Quote:


Ryan(Wed Mar 17 12:53:40 MDT 2010)>Lee, yes you will be able to record it on your DVR.

Ryan(Wed Mar 17 12:53:52 MDT 2010)>Customers with a DVR can schedule a recording of the event from the guide. If the recording is scheduled from within the guide, the DVR will record a 3 hour block of time, even if the actual live 3D coverage is less. This is because the guide has it scheduled as a 3 hour event.

Does it matter that they say "through an HDMI connection?" Does the H PVR use one? It looked to me like it used Component input.

Quote:


HD-PVR records component video (YCrCb) from cable TV and satellite set top boxes,

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
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post #7 of 32
3/19/10 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

From my thread on the Comcast broadcast of the Masters golf tourney in 3D:
Quote:


The 3D Masters coverage will be produced by ESPN using the NEP SS 3D truck. Comcast will ingest the feed at Comcast Media Center in Denver and then transmit it to customers using the 1080i, "side-by- side" frame-compatible 3D HD format. The 3D broadcasts can be received by Comcast's latest HD set-tops and transmitted over HDMI connections to new 3D TV sets without requiring any software update to the set-tops. Comcast does plan to make a firmware upgrade to its HD set-tops later this year to make sure that they can support the program guide and other functions in 3D.

I don't know if my SA HD DVR differs from the Hauppague HD PVR but I did enter into a live chat session with a Comcast tech - here is what he said:
Quote:


Ryan(Wed Mar 17 12:53:40 MDT 2010)>Lee, yes you will be able to record it on your DVR.

Ryan(Wed Mar 17 12:53:52 MDT 2010)>Customers with a DVR can schedule a recording of the event from the guide. If the recording is scheduled from within the guide, the DVR will record a 3 hour block of time, even if the actual live 3D coverage is less. This is because the guide has it scheduled as a 3 hour event.


Does it matter that they say "through an HDMI connection?"

It looks like the context Masters quote was the cable box connecteed to a new 3D display. In that case the normal connection would be HDMI (as these displays normally get their 3D via HDMI. The Comcast discussion quoted didn't touch on connections.
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Does the H PVR use one? It looked to me like it used Component input.

I agree, it looks like component only. Probably the reason is that virtually all HDMI sources use HDCP and wouldn't connect to a non-compliant device.

Quote:


HD-PVR records component video (YCrCb) from cable TV and satellite set top boxes,

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
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post #8 of 32
3/20/10 at 8:13am
One reason the HD-PVR is set up for component only video and not HDMI video is that since it is a recorder that forwards the H.264 compressed and encoded program content to a PC which can not easily/ if at all support HDCP on it's input connection. Therefore the HD-PVR relies on the video source such as a cable or satellite STB to send ATSC standard HD component content to it which it will only do if the ICT(image control flag) is not set in the source of HD content it is receiving. If the ICT is set then the source STB will downscale the HD content to SD when outputing it out over a component connection.
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post #9 of 32
3/20/10 at 3:37pm
As noted, existing cable HD DVRs will record 3D, and I fully expect the DBS units to do the same, as they both essentially use the same approach; side by side 3D signal, and HDMI.

My guess is that the Hauppage will also work, but as noted, it may depend on the display ability to correctly 'see' the type of 3D signal recorded and process it accordingly.

It may be possible on an HDMI connection the 3D compatible HDTV can 'see' the 3D signal differently than on component video.
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post #10 of 32
3/20/10 at 5:22pm
One of the problems is labeling. An HD DVR digital tuner STB records compressed and encoced broadcast content as received. The Hauppauge HD-PVR box only accepts decompresed and decoded video content sent to it in a ATSC standard complient componnent interface from a digital tuner STB. The HD-PVR then compresses and encoddes the content into H.264 format and sends it to your PC where it can be recorded or played with an H.264 deccoder and player program.
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post #11 of 32
3/20/10 at 6:14pm
Thread Starter 
thanks.
my exact setup is
Verizon HD STB --> Hauppaugge HD-PVR --> PC (via Nero MediaHome) -->PS3 (play HD-PVR files great)--> (via HDMI) AV Receiver --> (via HDMI) Projector

My understanding is that the PS3 is going to play 3D this summer.
From what I'm understanding from the thread (so far) is that it should work, the only question is whether the player (in my case PS3) will know that the material is in 3D.

BTW: has Verizon started showing 3D stuff yet?
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post #12 of 32
3/20/10 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

One of the problems is labeling. An HD DVR digital tuner STB records compressed and encoced broadcast content as received. The Hauppauge HD-PVR box only accepts decompresed and decoded video content sent to it in a ATSC standard complient componnent interface from a digital tuner STB. The HD-PVR then compresses and encoddes the content into H.264 format and sends it to your PC where it can be recorded or played with an H.264 deccoder and player program.

I don't understand your point. It's already clear how the Hauppauge gets the signal it records, and does not record the signal the same way as a cable or DBS HD DVR.

The real question is what does it output? If the input recorded is 3D HD, is the output still compatible with a 3D HDTV?

Once content is recorded can it playback through an HDMI card in the PC, or is it limited to analog?
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post #13 of 32
3/20/10 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

thanks.
my exact setup is
Verizon HD STB --> Hauppaugge HD-PVR --> PC (via Nero MediaHome) -->PS3 (play HD-PVR files great)--> (via HDMI) AV Receiver --> (via HDMI) Projector

My understanding is that the PS3 is going to play 3D this summer.
From what I'm understanding from the thread (so far) is that it should work, the only question is whether the player (in my case PS3) will know that the material is in 3D.

The PS3 bit is that it will get an update to play 3D Blu-rays using the new full resolution MVC encoding.

That is a different 3D system from what will be used with cable or satellite. There the left & right images (placed either Side by Side or Over and Under) are transmitted in a single HD frame. All of the responses so far indicate that you will likely be able to play a BD made on your set-up on your current PS3 (doesn't need the 3D upgrade) ON A NEW "3D" display (it doesn't sound like you do) if you can force your 3D mode on that display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

BTW: has Verizon started showing 3D stuff yet?

I haven't seen any announcements from them yet. So far the only distributers that have announced anything are Comcast, Cablevision and DirecTV. (Update: There are reports that both Time Warner & Cox have also announced plans to carry the Masters in 3D (go Tiger! )
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post #14 of 32
3/20/10 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

I don't understand your point. It's already clear how the Hauppauge gets the signal it records, and does not record the signal the same way as a cable or DBS HD DVR.

The real question is what does it output? If the input recorded is 3D HD, is the output still compatible with a 3D HDTV?

Once content is recorded can it playback through an HDMI card in the PC, or is it limited to analog?

Ken - maybe this will help:

Record your high definition TV programs to your PC, using high quality H.264!

Quote:


HD PVR is the world’s first High-Definition video recorder for making real-time H.264 compressed recordings at resolutions up to 1080i. HD-PVR records component video (YCrCb) from cable TV and satellite set top boxes, with a built-in IR blaster to automatically change TV channels for scheduled recordings. Audio is recorded using AAC or Dolby Digital .

The recording format is AVCHD, which can be used to burn Blu-ray DVD disks. Two hours of HD recordings, recorded at 5 Mbits/sec, can be burnt onto a standard 4.7 GByte DVD-R or DVD-RW disk for playback on a Blu-ray DVD player.

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Features

Built-in hardware H.264 high definition encoder, for high performance, high quality TV recordings
Component video input from most high definition cable TV and satellite TV receivers. Optical or stereo audio inputs

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html

My only question about the product is will the conversion of a HD digital 3D signal be changed/damaged when converting it to a HD analog 3D signal to the point of corrupting the signal to be valueless if trying to recontstruct the original 3D SbS signal for use on a 3DTV.

With an HD DVR - it is digital entering the STB, it is recorded digitally, then it is sent digitally, through the HDMI chip onto the receiving HDMI chip in the 3DTV. 100% digital from start to finish.
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post #15 of 32
3/21/10 at 6:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

I don't understand your point. It's already clear how the Hauppauge gets the signal it records, and does not record the signal the same way as a cable or DBS HD DVR.

The real question is what does it output? If the input recorded is 3D HD, is the output still compatible with a 3D HDTV?

Once content is recorded can it playback through an HDMI card in the PC, or is it limited to analog?

Ken,
I was trying to make it very clear the only method for transmitting FHD 3D video content was via HDMI which uses 2 1080p frames (L&R) packed into a single buffer and this format is cerainly not convertable to any ATSC standard component format and from that back into Blu-Ray FHD 3D disk format so a PC could play it properly.
And therefore there is no way possible to use a Haupauge HD-PVR for FHD Blu-ray 3D content.
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post #16 of 32
3/21/10 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Ken,
I was trying to make it very clear the only method for transmitting FHD 3D video content was via HDMI which uses 2 1080p frames (L&R) packed into a single buffer and this format is cerainly not convertable to any ATSC standard component format and from that back into Blu-Ray FHD 3D disk format so a PC could play it properly.
And therefore there is no way possible to use a Haupauge HD-PVR for FHD Blu-ray 3D content.

Ok, thanks for clarifying your comment.

I know for a fact HDMI is not the only way to transmit a 3D signal, at least in field sequential format, as I've worked with that on RGBHV for over a decade. My guess is that side by side or top and bottom 3D would be the same. I don't know for sure about the 3D signal on component video out of a Comcast HD box in side by side, when The Masters 3D broadcast is on the air, but I will know very soon.

Further, I'm not knowledgeable at all about how the 3D formats used for HDTV would be affected by what the Hauppauge does when it records and then outputs the signal. You may well be right about this, but I think until someone tries it, it's an unknown. I hope we have someone who can try for The Masters.
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post #17 of 32
3/21/10 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

So far the only distributers that have announced anything are Comcast, Cablevision and DirecTV. (Update: There are reports that both Time Warner & Cox have also announced plans to carry the Masters in 3D (go Tiger! )

At this time, Comcast, TWC, Cox, & Cablevision will all carry the 3D Masters special broadcast. It will be sponsored by Sony & IBM.

Other cableco's may sign on as we get closer to the event. DBS, IPTV, & Fiber carriers are unlikely, but not out of the question.

Additionally, Comcast and IBM will combine efforts to offer the 3D feed via The Masters.com. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1239231
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post #18 of 32
4/3/10 at 1:13pm
I just happened on this and couldn't see any mention of it on 3D Central:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/09/p...rders-players/
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post #19 of 32
4/3/10 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Dean View Post

I just happened on this and couldn't see any mention of it on 3D Central:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/09/p...rders-players/

Those are for the UK and Japan - not for the USA.
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post #20 of 32
4/3/10 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Those are for the UK and Japan - not for the USA.

Lee, apart from the voltage issues (easily met by using a converter) is there any reason those would not work in the U.S.? I know I can order a region specific dvd player and use it to play DVDs here that do not compy with our region coding, but then I believe Japan and the U.S. share Region 1 anyway.
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post #21 of 32
4/3/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthTV View Post

Lee, apart from the voltage issues (easily met by using a converter) is there any reason those would not work in the U.S.? I know I can order a region specific dvd player and use it to play DVDs here that do not compy with our region coding, but then I believe Japan and the U.S. share Region 1 anyway.

But we don't share HD tuners. Japans SAT is different than DirecTV and Dish and UK uses Freeview and SKY-HD of which we don't nor do the Japanese
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post #22 of 32
4/3/10 at 6:31pm
Line voltage is easy to convert line frequency 50Hz or 60Hz is not.
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post #23 of 32
4/3/10 at 10:41pm
It will be interesting to see how the broadcast 3D compares to the 2D to 3D the Samsungs do.
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post #24 of 32
4/4/10 at 1:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

But we don't share HD tuners. Japans SAT is different than DirecTV and Dish and UK uses Freeview and SKY-HD of which we don't nor do the Japanese

I guess it is just as well. When I was visiting Tokyo's Akihabara district looking at HD DVD recorders a few years ago they were priced well over $5,000.00 after conversion from yen.
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post #25 of 32
4/5/10 at 8:20am
Here is my 2 cents worth on the question of the OP. There are several unknowns that will need to be addressed and points to be considered before an definitive answer is possible.

1. Will the cable and sat companies limit the 3D video output of their set top boxes to only the HDMI? This could very well happen since as far as I know the 3D HDTVs will only apply the 3D decoding when the signal comes in via HDMI and the cable and sat companies may intentially disable all other outputs (or at least HD outputs) for their 3D channels.

2. if the component output of the cable or sat box is active then the video will appear to any external device (including the video capture card in your PC) as a standard 2D video signal with that happens to contain two different side-by-side (or top/bottom) images. This signal could thus be recorded as a normal HD 2D video.

3. When playing back the recorded video using your PS3 as the player (after transferring the file from your PC to your PS3) and sending the signal to the 3DTV display there will be nothing within the video nor HDMI header field that will identify it as a 3D video. As far as the PS3 is concerned this is just a regular HD 2D video. Therefore, the specific 3DTV display you are using would need to have a user setting to force it to apply 3D decoding for the specific 3D format used for this video. Some 3DTV displays may support this type of forced mode while some others may not. You would need to review the user's manual for the specific 3DTV display you are considering.

Note: the above discussion only applies to the half resolution side-by-side and top-bottom 3D video formats as are being used for the initial 3D video services being provided by cable companies and Directv. It does not apply to the frame packing 3D format as being used by Blu-ray 3D players since this format cannot be output via component nor could it be recorded as a standard 1080p signal format.
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post #26 of 32
4/5/10 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Here is my 2 cents worth on the question of the OP. There are several unknowns that will need to be addressed and points to be considered before an definitive answer is possible.

1. Will the cable and sat companies limit the 3D video output of their set top boxes to only the HDMI? This could very well happen since as far as I know the 3D HDTVs will only apply the 3D decoding when the signal comes in via HDMI and the cable and sat companies may intentially disable all other outputs (or at least HD outputs) for their 3D channels.

2. if the component output of the cable or sat box is active then the video will appear to any external device (including the video capture card in your PC) as a standard 2D video signal with that happens to contain two different side-by-side (or top/bottom) images. This signal could thus be recorded as a normal HD 2D video.

3. When playing back the recorded video using your PS3 as the player (after transferring the file from your PC to your PS3) and sending the signal to the 3DTV display there will be nothing within the video nor HDMI header field that will identify it as a 3D video. As far as the PS3 is concerned this is just a regular HD 2D video. Therefore, the specific 3DTV display you are using would need to have a user setting to force it to apply 3D decoding for the specific 3D format used for this video. Some 3DTV displays may support this type of forced mode while some others may not. You would need to review the user's manual for the specific 3DTV display you are considering.

Note: the above discussion only applies to the half resolution side-by-side and top-bottom 3D video formats as are being used for the initial 3D video services being provided by cable companies and Directv. It does not apply to the frame packing 3D format as being used by Blu-ray 3D players since this format cannot be output via component nor could it be recorded as a standard 1080p signal format.

If we look at The Masters in 3D announcement we see:

1. You will need to use HDMI output to a 3DTV

2. The 3D broadcast is a seperate broadcast from the 2D broadcast

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...es_3D_Leap.php

IMO, using the above as reference, if you turned to the proper channel broadcasting the 3D program and attached a HDTV to the Component Outputs, you would see nothing. Just some kind of error screen message.
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post #27 of 32
4/5/10 at 9:21am
There is no cablecard flag that disallows analog output, so if your DVR can record it then the component outputs should work. I would think (especially at this point in the technology) that most DVRs have no clue about what the content actually is and will simply pass through the side-by-side image.
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post #28 of 32
4/5/10 at 11:01am
I agree. So if you have an HD-PVR tuner you coould then record the side-by-side 1080i component contentfrom the cable box to your PC and then output it later to your 3D HDTV over HDMI. Both the Sasmsung C7000 LCD and C700 Plasma models appear to have a setting option according to their user manuals to tell them that the TV is receiving 1080i side-by-side.
I suspect that someone will have tried this by the end of the week with the Master's 3D cable broadcasts.
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post #29 of 32
4/5/10 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

There is no cablecard flag that disallows analog output, so if your DVR can record it then the component outputs should work. I would think (especially at this point in the technology) that most DVRs have no clue about what the content actually is and will simply pass through the side-by-side image.

I see only a HDMI requirement - nothing about Component outs:

http://www.comcast.com/Corporate/Pro...ts/3Dfaqs.html
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post #30 of 32
4/5/10 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I see only a HDMI requirement - nothing about Component outs:

http://www.comcast.com/Corporate/Pro...ts/3Dfaqs.html

My point was that they cannot turn off the analog outputs as there is no signal they can use to do it.
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