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Panasonic 2010 plasma: Floating blacks - Page 40

post #1171 of 1571
No there not my vt2550 floats like crazy! I wish i would haver never bought this tv! Plasma is still better than led lcd, I did try the light hack it really works no floating blacks,my tv is watchable again! What a joke that we have to stick a light to make this stop,my blacks did not go up eaither.
post #1172 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericzuellig View Post

No there not my vt2550 floats like crazy! I wish i would haver never bought this tv! Plasma is still better than led lcd, I did try the light hack it really works no floating blacks,my tv is watchable again! What a joke that we have to stick a light to make this stop,my blacks did not go up eaither.

So sticking a light by the CATS indicator works? I have a 54VT25 and even with AGC at "0" watching a show like Vampire Diaries in a dark room brings on a floating blacks epidemic. I went ahead and re-enabled AGC, set to "6", since FTB is going to happen might as well get the additional pop that AGC can provide.
post #1173 of 1571
Yes, the light trick does work. I've been using it for several days now. I don't mind the slightly higher black level. I just turn down the brightness just a little (until that green fuzz disappears) and then upped the contrast a little more. This gives a very pleasing picture to me.

I calibrated it using the 709 disc and the THX blue filter glasses for the proper color. I found the 709 disc to give a higher black level than I like and lower contrast than I like... so I just increased the contrast a few more clicks from the 709 disc recommended settings and decreased the black level a bit.
post #1174 of 1571
I have 50 inch VT25. I did 100+ hr break in and have D-Nice settings (for THX i have not changed SM values). I just did a quick test and basically change Black Level setting from Light to Dark. I know with this setting the screen is too dark, but I noticed that floating black does not occur.

For those who use flash light to prevent FB from happening, how do you point the flash light to TV so that it does not degrade viewing experience?
post #1175 of 1571
Well... I own a 65VT25 since the end of July that has something around 825 hours on it. I could not see any floating blacks on it up until last weekend... when floating blacks suddenly became very apparent on dark scenes in that latest Twilight movie (eh-hum.. that my wife bought! ). It looked like a slight brightness fluctuation of the whole scene that seemed to happen ramdomly...

My VT is buzzing, has so-so motion handling with 24p sources, has color banding... and now this! Can't believe I paid this much for a HDTV with so many issues...

Anyways I'll test the dark setting just to see if it helps...
post #1176 of 1571
I know stinks how all of us paid so much for these vts tvs and panasonic is doing nothing. Can there be a class action law suit? I wish i would have bought a sony led???
post #1177 of 1571
also iam get a ton of IR does any else have this issue with this tv
post #1178 of 1571
I think all plasma TVs shows IR, but some TVs show more than other TVs. My girlfriend has PN50C550 and IR is far worse than VT25. I was a bit annoyed by FB but it is not that big of a deal for me to feel a buyer's remorse given that virtually no TVs are perfect in the market today. I have admit that VT25 produces very beautiful images without fatiguing my eyes and that is most important for me.
post #1179 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericzuellig View Post

also iam get a ton of IR does any else have this issue with this tv

Becomes less of an issue as the plasma ages. I've had my VT25 since June and while I still get IR after gaming it goes away quickly, within a half hour or so or will be gone the next time I turn on the TV if just hit Off after gaming.
post #1180 of 1571
Iam geting really bad IR in like 1 to 2 min on my vt. If I pull up the menu for for 30 50 secs iam geting bad IR same with tv shows 5min of larry king tons of IR I have other panasonic tvs that do not do this. 1080P load logo is on for 20sec on the bluray load screen and i see the IR on the black bars when letterboxed. It does not go away until I run full screen.
post #1181 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericzuellig View Post

Iam geting really bad IR in like 1 to 2 min on my vt. If I pull up the menu for for 30 50 secs iam geting bad IR same with tv shows 5min of larry king tons of IR I have other panasonic tvs that do not do this. 1080P load logo is on for 20sec on the bluray load screen and i see the IR on the black bars when letterboxed. It does not go away until I run full screen.

My S2 is same or maybe even worse. Even 5 seconds of the on-screen menus or my Onkyo AVR's splash logo gets retained (Cinema Mode with moderate contrast). Reports on IR susceptibility in '10 Panny plasmas seem to vary widely - some have it bad like ours... others have worked at it and can't induce any.

I'm not too concerned because the IR goes away just as fast.
post #1182 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericzuellig View Post

Iam geting really bad IR in like 1 to 2 min on my vt. If I pull up the menu for for 30 50 secs iam geting bad IR same with tv shows 5min of larry king tons of IR I have other panasonic tvs that do not do this. 1080P load logo is on for 20sec on the bluray load screen and i see the IR on the black bars when letterboxed. It does not go away until I run full screen.

Are you in "torch" mode?
post #1183 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton View Post

Are you in "torch" mode?

Can't answer for Eric, but mine certainly is not.

It takes just seconds to retain an image. If the final seconds of a scene before a commercial break are relatively static, you can see most of that scene in the fade thru black going into the commercial. Even a minute of SportCenter on ESPN and you see all of the their graphics very clearly in the black screen. If I fire up my system but send it to a dead input or channel, the initial Onkyo splash and the Panny HDMI1 banner are clearly visible on the black screen after only a few seconds of exposure... but, as I mentioned previously, they disappear just as quickly with live video.

The Panasonic authorized tech that did an unrelated repair on mine said it was the worst IR he had ever seen.
post #1184 of 1571
vt25 is thx mode sorry to get off topic, So other people have the same thing. So its not me then. I have 500+hrs on the tv to well it get better? They still need to fix the floating blacks,
post #1185 of 1571
FLOATING BLACKS EXPLAINED

Post created as a place to compile information describing the cause and reason for floating blacks. So far 4 patents describing the issue (aka – feature) are posted. The post is linked in the Zero Black Thread.

Brief Version

Effect - Black level changes depending on APL of screen (APL=Average Picture Level))
Cause - The number of all-cell initialization pulses are changed depending on APL
Reason - At high APL the panel impedence causes a voltage drop (due to higher current) and pixels may start to misfire so an additional all-cell initializatin is peformed to compensate (re-priming the cells)
Why Only Panasonic - Other manufacturers just raise address voltage or width to compensate which impacts panel efficiency



Detailed Version

The phenomenon we see is an abrupt change in black level depending on the content on the screen. This is especially noticeable in black bar areas and while watching in low ambient light.

Below is some definitions to know before reading the patent literature.
  • APL is the Average Picture Level (think of it as the % of the screen at full white)

  • Initialization is the process where the pixel cell is prepared for stable operation (discharged in order to produce priming electrons (think “pre-discharge”) and discharged in order to create wall charge)

  • All-Cell Initialization is when every pixel is initialized regardless if they are to be used or not (main contribution to black level)

  • Selective Cell Initialization is when only cells to be used to emit light are initialized (no contribution to black level)

  • Discharge start voltage is the voltage threshold at which discharge occurs above this voltage and no discharge occurs below this voltage.


Description of Panasonic REAL BLACK DRIVE (Panasonic)
  • 1 or 2 "all cell" initialization periods (every subpixel is initialized no matter what) depending on APL.
  • All other subfields use "selective" initialization periods (only pixels that have previously generated a subfield)
  • see end of post for more detail

Panasonic Patent application #20090021452 (same patent that describes rising blacks)


Describes how the black level will shift at 6% APL (becomes darker below 6% APL and brighter above 6% APL). Notice the one large single pulse (initialization) for the <6% case and 2 large pulses for >6%APL case.



Patent also says that if a hysteresis characteristic is applied there will be two thresholds at 5% and 7% that will lessen the number of black level shifts. Black level become higher above 7% APL (2 all-cell initializations used) and then become darker below 5% (1 all-cell initialization used).

The patent does not clearly state the reason it is necessary. The patent does seem to suggest that the intended feature is a stable picture with higher contrast at lower APL (where it is important). The perceivable brightness shifting is an unwanted byproduct.



Panasonic Patent application #20100253673

Describes the use of a combination of no initialization (ZERO BLACKl) and REAL-BLACK-DRIVING (all-cell and selective cell initialiation). More specifically at least half the frames will be displayed by using no initialization (zero black) and the other half displayed by REAL-BLACK (1 initialization+selective initialization). To overcome stability issues with this method they change the address pulse width based on the ratio of zero black frames and REAL-BLACK frames used.

But if you read claim 3 you see that the ratio of these two methods is changed based on APL which again will create floating black levels.

The patent does seems to finally describe WHY floating blacks is required on Panasonic designs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Corporation patent application #20100253673 View Post

[0118]Next will be described the reason why insertion ratio N of the selective-cell initializing field is determined according to APL in the third embodiment.
[0120]Image display with high APL generally allows the image display area to have an increased ratio of sections to be lit, which also increases the ratio of the discharge cells that undergo the address discharge, and accordingly, increases discharge current generated in the address discharge. The circuits that drive electrodes and the electrodes themselves have impedance, and therefore increase in discharge current causes a voltage drop. Due to the voltage drop, voltage to be applied to the discharge cells decreases, by which discharge delay increases. Extending the scan-pulse width required for address discharge compensates for the increase in discharge delay.

In easier to understand terms the panel has resistance and thus when a lot of pixels are lit (aka – high APL) the voltage drops closer to the discharge start voltage (see definitions start of post) . When this occurs the discharge delay goes up and the discharge probability goes down. The pixels may start to misfire. To compensate for this the panel uses an extra all-cell initialization because it provides extra priming particles that lower the discharge start voltage to a value that compensates for the voltage drop described above.

Figure 11 from the patent - see description below

FIG 11 description : Think of the vertical axis as the time (address voltage pulse width) required to achieve stable addressing. And the horizontal axis as the time after all-cell initialization. Curves 1101, 1102, 1103,1104 all describe how the longer the panel goes without all-cell initialization the more time (or voltage pulse width) required to ignite it stably again. Now the different curves all have the same slope but represent different APL.
  • 1101 – measured at 100% APL
  • 1102 – measured at 50% APL
  • 1103 – measured at 18% APL
  • 1104 – measured at 1.5% APL
You can see that the higher the APL goes the more address voltage width is required to achieve stable operation (as per reason described above).


Panasonic patents 7446734 and 7583240

Describe floating blacks in a 600Hz system using up to 5 black level shifts depending on APL.

Remember that the initialization step produces black level. More initialization the higher the black level. And APL can be thought of as % of the screen at full white. Check this out:






Reasoning (pay attention to bolded areas)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selected paragraphs from Panasonic patents 744673 and 7583240 View Post


As described above, in this exemplary embodiment, because it is considered that there is no or a small area displaying a black picture when an image having a large APL is displayed, the number of all-cell initializing operations and thus priming are increased to stabilize discharge. In contrast, when an image having a low APL is displayed, it is considered that there is a large area displaying a black picture. Thus, the number of all-cell initializing operations and the black picture level are reduced to improve black display quality. Therefore, at a low APL, luminance in the area displaying a black picture is low, and an image having high contrast can be displayed even when the image has areas having high luminance.

In the all-cell initializing operation, it is necessary to cause initializing discharge using the scan electrodes as anodes and the sustain electrodes and data electrodes as cathodes. However, phosphors having smaller electron emission factors that are applied to the data electrodes may increase discharge delay in the initializing discharge using the data electrodes as cathodes, thus causing unstable initializing discharge in some cases.

Additionally, considerations are given to increasing the partial pressure of xenon in the discharge gas filled into the panel to improve the luminous efficiency of the panel. However, an increase in the partial pressure of xenon destabilizes discharge, especially initializing discharge. This unstable discharge poses a problem of writing failure in the subsequent writing period that is caused by a narrower margin of the driving voltage in the wiring operation.

With recent higher definition of a panel, the number of discharge cells is increasing and the period of time used for writing operation of one discharge cell is reducing. In addition, to improve image display quality, such as improvement of dynamic false contour, writing operation at higher speeds, such as discussion on a driving method for increasing the number of sub-fields, is required.

Now, the all-cell initializing operation for initializing all the discharge cells serves to form wall discharge necessary for writing operation, as described above. The all-cell initializing operation also serves to generate priming (priming=excited particles) to reduce discharge delay and stabilize writing discharge. Therefore, for stable high-speed writing operation, a method of increasing priming is effective. However, simply increasing the number of the all-cell initializing operations increases black picture level and decreases contrast, thus deteriorating image display quality.

Detailed description of Panasonic REAL-BLACK-DRIVE (as best as I currently understand)

All Cell Initialization:
-first creates excess wall charge state on all cells to [Q4]
-then downslope depletes wall charge in all cells to a normalized low level of [Q1]
- [Q1] is considered the "off" state (at this point all cells are at Q1)

Address Period
- scans all subpixels line by line increasing wall charge in selected pixels to [Q3]
- [Q3] is still below the discharge start voltage
- [Q3] is considered the "on" state while all other pixels with low levels of wall charge are still in the "off" state of [Q1]

Sustain Period
- applies AC voltage that discharges only the cells in the "on" state of [Q3]
- leaves the cell in the "on" state of [Q3] when completed

Selective Initialization
- Only the cells in the "on" state (whith high levels of wall charge) are depleted back to [Q1] using the same downslope voltage ramp (see first plot) while all other cells are already at [Q1] and thus are unchanged during this step
- the panel wall charge is now normalized to [Q1] and again ready to be addressed
post #1186 of 1571
I will never by panasonic again until they fix this!!!!
post #1187 of 1571
If putting a light in front of the CATS sensor puts the TV in an always bright ambient light...

I'm just thinking...

What if you remove the sensor?

Not putting a tape, but actually removing it. I think the sensor is catching light from the panel itself (the panel is too bright and the inside of the TV gets too much light as so the CATS sensor) and that's why the floating blacks issue no matter if it's on/off and there is no light on the room... just a thought.
post #1188 of 1571
(50VT25 less than 2wks old)
I think I experienced my first issue with the Floating Blacks, if the rapidly rising and falling of the contrast/blackness of the screen is what it is referring to. The recent episode of Community - "Abed's Uncontrollable Christmas" the whole episode is in stop-motion animation. In several scenes the TV kept getting lighter/darker. Drove my wife mad.

I've sent an email to Panasonic about the issue and have a case #, but need to follow up with a phone call. My first use of the plasma was the break-in slides, D-Nice's user settings AND service menu settings. My worry is that I've messed with the service menu. Is this going to cause a problem with the warranty?
post #1189 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick burns View Post
(50vt25 less than 2wks old)
i think i experienced my first issue with the floating blacks, if the rapidly rising and falling of the contrast/blackness of the screen is what it is referring to. The recent episode of community - "abed's uncontrollable christmas" the whole episode is in stop-motion animation. In several scenes the tv kept getting lighter/darker. Drove my wife mad.

I've sent an email to panasonic about the issue and have a case #, but need to follow up with a phone call. My first use of the plasma was the break-in slides, d-nice's user settings and service menu settings. My worry is that i've messed with the service menu. Is this going to cause a problem with the warranty?
no.
post #1190 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Burns View Post

(50VT25 less than 2wks old)
I think I experienced my first issue with the Floating Blacks, if the rapidly rising and falling of the contrast/blackness of the screen is what it is referring to. The recent episode of Community - "Abed's Uncontrollable Christmas" the whole episode is in stop-motion animation. In several scenes the TV kept getting lighter/darker. Drove my wife mad.

I've sent an email to Panasonic about the issue and have a case #, but need to follow up with a phone call. My first use of the plasma was the break-in slides, D-Nice's user settings AND service menu settings. My worry is that I've messed with the service menu. Is this going to cause a problem with the warranty?

I wouldn't bother following up on this as it can't be corrected, lessened or otherwise as it is designed to work that way using any normal controls on the tv. I have a 50G20 & am really PO'd about this feature. I have tried every setting within reason & it continues to float. I swear I see it more now than when the set was new.

This is becoming a deal breaker for me with this set & if I could afford to I would likely get rid of it. It's unfortunate as it is so good in so many other aspects but this is just a stupid design at work. I'm amazed this set gets good reviews with this occurring frequently. On bright content the set is terrific but I like dark movies sometimes too.
post #1191 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

... I swear I see it more now than when the set was new.

Same here! One of the reasons why I decided to buy the VT25 is because of its "near pio" black level performance...

I watched quite a few movies with dark scenes since July and while there was a difference in percieved black (mainly on top/bottom black bars in 2.35:1 movies) when going from a bright scene (inky black looking bars) to a darker scene (light black looking bars) I had never experienced multiple brightness shifts in the same scene until last week.

I've been watching 4 or 5 movies this week and brightness fluctuation is now easily noticeable especially on dark scenes in widescreen (2.35:1) movies. I also watched the extended version of Avatar last night which was 16:9 (full screen) and didn't notice any brightness fluctuation but then I was not looking for it...

I'm pretty sure that my VT didn't have the brightness fluctuation issue for the first four months of use. I don't know why this problem appeared last week. At first I thought it had something to do with the settings...
post #1192 of 1571
I've started noticing the issue with my two week old 58" VT25. Fortunately it's not generally noticeable for most full screen content. When movies aren't 16:9 it's quite noticeable. It's also very noticeable on the PS3 menu screens. I'm pretty disappointed as a TV of this price shouldn't have this kind of issue. I have a couple more weeks to decide whether to return it. It'll be a tough decision as the TV is otherwise very good.
post #1193 of 1571
AT BB I asked the Panasonic rep he knew of the floating blacks issue with Panny's Plasma. He has never heard a word of it.
post #1194 of 1571
I fooled around with the VT settings today to see if I could reduce the fluctuation a bit. Out of curiosity I tried restoring all settings to default but it didn't do the trick, fluctuation remained in all its glory.

Tried a few other things like zooming in the picture to remove black bars from the display area and it did seem to reduce (maybe even eliminate) brightness fluctuation a lot. I was also able to lessen fluctuation by setting the screen size to 4:3 with 4:3 vertical side bar brightness set to bright. But those two options crop the movie image plus I don't really like white bars on my TV screen. I was finally able to almost completely get rid of fluctuation with 2.35:1 movies (picture mode set to full) by using custom picture mode with the AGC option set to 15 in the pro settings menu. This is the best option for me so far. Too sad I can't change that AGC in THX mode cause I find THX picture mode a lot better than custom...

I've tried all those settings with only one movie tho...
post #1195 of 1571
Even with your VT in full screen I'm sure it's still floating. It's hard to see. The best way to see it is to pause a scene on the screen and then shine a light in front of the CATS sensor, and then move turn the light on and off. You will see it float up and down as you turn the light on and off.

Even if they kept the floating "feature" they should at least put it on a smooth gradual transition instead of a on/off type feature. It wouldn't be noticeable at all if it were gradual.

At this point, my next TV might be a direct lit LED panel with zoned dimming... or save up for a Kuro.

I think this floating feature is part of some energy star thing?
post #1196 of 1571
It's not "part of some energy star thing."

See:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post19611788

Larry
post #1197 of 1571
I don't mind floating blacks that I can't or hardly can see... But when they become this obvious it's another story. CATS is turn off btw.
post #1198 of 1571
I have one of those USB-LED flex lights that looks like this:



Unfortunately, mine no longer works. I wonder if that can be powered by the TV USB port and then set up to shine on the sensor?

NewEgg has it for $3 (w/ $6 S&H!!), but I'm sure I could pick one up at a local Fry's store.
post #1199 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhan View Post

I don't mind floating blacks that I can't or hardly can see... But when they become this obvious it's another story. CATS is turn off btw.

Ok I just realized that even with CATS set to off the VT brightness still fluctuates when turning on and off a flash light in front of the sensor.
post #1200 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhan View Post

Ok I just realized that even with CATS set to off the VT brightness still fluctuates when turning on and off a flash light in front of the sensor.

Whew, just read thru this damn thread. Lot of good info here. I'm a little shocked the CATS sensor is still making adjustments when set to "OFF". The last couple of years Ive been a watch a movie in the dark kinda guy, with just a backlight. The one lamp I have (dim 65w), is off to the side and does not affect PQ during night time programming. I'm wondering if stopping watching movies in a fully dark room would help some of this issue.

The USB light above looks neat too, just seems like a PITA to deal with.
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