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Panasonic 2010 plasma: Floating blacks - Page 41

post #1201 of 1569
Yeah, I generally don't notice FB's too much with my 65watt lamp on for normal viewing. Im gonna experiment some with Inception (movie) and contrast/sensor settings.
post #1202 of 1569
It's not just the CATS sensor though. The panel seems to have some sort of logic that adjusts the power to the screen whenever the amount of relative whiteness of the picture crosses a certain threshold.
post #1203 of 1569
Has anyone ever been able to figure out if lower Contrast can help, or is the programming regardless of how high the Contrast is. My set was calibrated at 90, but I can easily lower it to 70.
post #1204 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Yeah, I generally don't notice FB's too much with my 65watt lamp on for normal viewing. Im gonna experiment some with Inception (movie) and contrast/sensor settings.

With any amount of light in the room, it is probably being triggered to the "float" state so you won't notice it much with a light on. You pretty much have to pause it on a scene and then try sticking a light in front of the sensor. A flashlight works well to trigger this effect. On/off = float up/float down...LOL

Inception is a good movie though!
post #1205 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Has anyone ever been able to figure out if lower Contrast can help, or is the programming regardless of how high the Contrast is. My set was calibrated at 90, but I can easily lower it to 70.

I've tried Contrast as low as 49 & no difference at all. I don't believe there is a setting in the tv that can defeat this unfortunately. I can see it with lights on or off easily. It is worse (more obvious) in low light though.
post #1206 of 1569
Thanks, thats what I kinda figured. I'm gonna just try some different viewing scenarios, to see which offers a reduction, if any, of the issue. I'm thinking a slightly better lit room, as opposed to dark, may be the best. It's not that the blacks bother me, I just find the float distracts me from the movie for a second, and it's irritating.
post #1207 of 1569
The only setting that has some impact, makes it less noticeable when it does happen, is to disable AGC. Again, it happens but with AGC off the difference in black levels isn't as extreme.
post #1208 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton View Post

The only setting that has some impact, makes it less noticeable when it does happen, is to disable AGC. Again, it happens but with AGC off the difference in black levels isn't as extreme.

This is what I have found too, AGC =0 seems to lessen it quite a bit though I really like the THX look but it floats like hell. I have my Custom set close to THX in appearance but I haven't been able to match it quite right yet. On the plus side the excellent AR on this set allows for viewing in a well lit room with minimal loss of picture quality. I'm surprised this is a bigger issue to me than the Rising Blacks ever would have been.
post #1209 of 1569
I have a S2, so AGC is a no go.
post #1210 of 1569
I got home early enough, dimmed out the room, and threw Expendables in. Used from 1hr44min20sec to 1hr43min40sec to run these tests, because there is a good amount of fluctuation. Here is what I learned (put blanket over screen like in youtube video):

  • There seems to be 3 levels of "float"
  • In that 40 sec run, I counted 10 shifts in black level
  • Contrast setting had no effect; adjusting brightness just brightens everything up or crushes black
  • Dark room (backlight only) vs room with the 65w lamp, found that with the lamp on it's barely noticeable. Will watch movies this way from now on(exactly the same plan I had with the LED LCD and its blooming
  • Have seen comments that the shift only effects the bars;thats BS, it effects the whole screen
  • A small LED flashlight, firing right into the CATS sensor (which is supposed to be OFF BTW) brings the screen up to the 3rd level of brightness. During this time, there are NO MORE floating blacks. Id ask, since the PQ is perfectly fine, why o why did they not allow us to turn this feature off?? It can be easily manipulated with the damn sensor!! I'd run it this way all the time, because like I said, the black level is perfectly fine.
Im trying to upload a video now, dunno if it'll work, but to be honest, my results look EXACTLY like the youtube video. To me, just to eek a little better black, they birthed an annoying side effect, when they should just have left it on the brightest level and went about their business. Guess this is a casualty of the MLL war, dunno.
post #1211 of 1569
Hey Elway thanks for that update. I would like to see your video if you can upload it. I think this was done to improve perceived MLL or to minimize the black level rise effect when it occurs. I say perceived as the set is not that dark overall it is just going that dark when it has room too.

It is really stupid that CATS or some other feature cannot completely defeat this floating. And I agree it effects the whole screen as I can see it on full screen content as well though it is less apparent.

One thing I don't understand is why shining a light stops this & then you have the patent info that XROX had posted. According to my understanding of the patent the content on the screen (APL) actually dictates the floating. I wonder if something is actually defective on these sets in the patent sense?
post #1212 of 1569
I uploaded it, but it looks bad. You can't see any differences, makes the tv look like a 2nd gen Kuro . What I see with the blanket, looks exactly like the youtube video, so it's legit.

I agree, if I can point a flashlight into the sensor, and fix my woes, why couldnt they just give us a menu option???
post #1213 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

I got home early enough, dimmed out the room, and threw Expendables in. Used from 1hr44min20sec to 1hr43min40sec to run these tests, because there is a good amount of fluctuation. Here is what I learned (put blanket over screen like in youtube video):

  • There seems to be 3 levels of "float"
  • In that 40 sec run, I counted 10 shifts in black level
  • Contrast setting had no effect; adjusting brightness just brightens everything up or crushes black
  • Dark room (backlight only) vs room with the 65w lamp, found that with the lamp on it's barely noticeable. Will watch movies this way from now on(exactly the same plan I had with the LED LCD and its blooming
  • Have seen comments that the shift only effects the bars;thats BS, it effects the whole screen
  • A small LED flashlight, firing right into the CATS sensor (which is supposed to be OFF BTW) brings the screen up to the 3rd level of brightness. During this time, there are NO MORE floating blacks. Id ask, since the PQ is perfectly fine, why o why did they not allow us to turn this feature off?? It can be easily manipulated with the damn sensor!! I'd run it this way all the time, because like I said, the black level is perfectly fine.
Im trying to upload a video now, dunno if it'll work, but to be honest, my results look EXACTLY like the youtube video. To me, just to eek a little better black, they birthed an annoying side effect, when they should just have left it on the brightest level and went about their business. Guess this is a casualty of the MLL war, dunno.

I agree that fluctuation does not affect only black bars as I too see fluctuation in the whole picture but it seems way more pronounced when those black bars are on screen. Fluctuation does not really bother me with 16:9 movies or games.

I've also tried to put a LED flashlight in front of the sensor last night with the same results you have: no more fluctuation but brighter blacks. With a tape on the sensor, fluctuation remained.

Maybe is it only when the TV reaches a certain (lower) level of black that fluctuation begins to occure? Or maybe it's just that the sensor catches light from the inside like some are suggesting...
post #1214 of 1569
If you read earlier posts, xrox explains the patent. Long story short, the Real Black Drive allows the screen to get blacker with a real low average picture level, when you want blacks to be good (dark scenes). Problem is, when the APL rises enough, it starts bouncing around. IMO, they shoulda just run with the highest level you see with the flashlight, but I guess folks would complain when they saw the meter readings for MLL, who knows.

As far as the sensor, I have NO idea why it works with CATS off, and why it makes the screen brighten to its normal black level. Only thing I can think if it's a default for some super bright room, maybe when its in the showroom??

I see three options:

  • Watch in the dark and live with it
  • Use ambient light and minimize it
  • find a small usb led light and tape it to the front
Im just gonna start watching movies with my side lamp on. Same way I watch TV at night, and its plenty dim.
post #1215 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

This is what I have found too, AGC =0 seems to lessen it quite a bit though I really like the THX look but it floats like hell. I have my Custom set close to THX in appearance but I haven't been able to match it quite right yet. On the plus side the excellent AR on this set allows for viewing in a well lit room with minimal loss of picture quality. I'm surprised this is a bigger issue to me than the Rising Blacks ever would have been.

I'll have to retry AGC=0 cause it seemed that with AGC=15 fluctuation was still there but less frequent...
post #1216 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhan View Post

I'll have to retry AGC=0 cause it seemed that with AGC=15 fluctuation was still there but less frequent...

Actually I'll try your 15 setting out too. I'll have to wait until the wife is finished watching hockey though first. It's funny as she is no tv expert but she loves hockey on the Panny.....
post #1217 of 1569
Sports look really good on this TV!
post #1218 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

[list][*]Have seen comments that the shift only effects the bars;thats BS, it effects the whole screen

Yep, it's BS. I use to have a Panasonic 50V2OA and can testify that it did not only the affect black bars, but within the picture itself. I had floating blacks, no matter what picture mode I was in. Strangely, setting gamma at 2.6 killed the floating blacks within the picture, but black bars would still float. I sold the TV to my brother....
post #1219 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhan View Post

Sports look really good on this TV!


Other than the FB's, the tv looks very good. When I watch normal programming, with low compression like OTA channels, the PQ is outstanding. The only problem with the 58" screen is it shows of the problems of some channels that are over compressed.
post #1220 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

Actually I'll try your 15 setting out too. I'll have to wait until the wife is finished watching hockey though first. It's funny as she is no tv expert but she loves hockey on the Panny.....

I tested again with Chapter 14 of the latest Twilight movie on BR. With AGC set to 0, I get a lot of fluctuation in that scene and like Elwaylite mentioned, there seems to be at least 3 levels of blacks. TV is (often) switching back and forth between those 3 levels during the scene.

AGC set to 1 seems to remove the lower black level leaving only the two higher levels and thus diminishing fluctuation frequency a bit.

With AGC set to 15 I was only able to count one black shift in the same segment where I counted at least 6 with AGC set to 0.

The picture brightness setting also seems to affect FB. In THX mode with brightness set to 50 (my usual setting) I get fluctuation in that same chapter. If I raise brightness up to 58 (or higher), fluctuation completely disappears. Resulting blacks are a bit brighter and look about the same as when I put the LED flashlight in front of the CATS sensor. As a matter of fact, with THX brightness set to 58, with a still picture, in a pitch black room, I get no fluctuation at all when I turn my flashlight on and off in front of the CATS sensor.

So I guess that gives us a fourth option:
  • Increase brightness...
post #1221 of 1569
My brightness is set with a test disc, so Id hate to increase it just for the FB's.
post #1222 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

My brightness is set with a test disc, so Id hate to increase it just for the FB's.

I guess it's (only) a good alternative to the LED light option... if one doesn't mind a slight brightness increase. But I don't really like the idea of increasing brightness either.
post #1223 of 1569
Yeah, Im just gonna go with the not watching the movie in complete darkness for awhile and see how it goes. My set looks great most of the time, dont wanna mess with settings.
post #1224 of 1569
Well... with The Dark Night I get fluctuation even with brightness at 58.

I guess that I'll have to use some light in my room too...
post #1225 of 1569
Floating Blacks, Floating Blacks...

Blacks are floating out of cracks.

Turn of lights and put tape on tight,

And yet the blacks are still in sight.

Floating floating never stopping

Making all the blacks keep popping.

One day soon I'll look and see

That blacks have floated over me.
post #1226 of 1569
LOL ^^. I just just spoke to Panny Concierge about a buzzing problem on my set so I asked them about the fluctuations on dark scenes. They say this is normal & is a function of Energy Star 4.0 compliance. I mentioned no other brands did this & they claimed they did. I said it was a Panasonic only "feature".

Anyways they suggested the only way to lessen the effect was to run the tv in Vivid setting & of course turn off CATS which no one uses anyways. Using Vivid is not an option. So there you have it right from them.

It was done as a power saving measure according to them..... They know what is happening though so I think they have been asked about this before.
post #1227 of 1569
Funny, sad actually, in that I gave up on LCD to avoid having to jump up and hit on the lights when the room started to dim to offset the inconsistent backlight, now I do it to limit the impact of floating blacks.
post #1228 of 1569
If it is true that the floating blacks are due to an energy saving algorthm, then it is also possible that a future firmware upgrade can correct this. Everyone one should contact Pansonic about this and demand an update.
post #1229 of 1569
Their history on FW updates for real issues is pretty poor with the THX issue on last years models being a good example. But they did fix it afterall. They corrected it after a lot of complaints I believe. I would love to do something as part of a group to get this made a priority to correct.

Or they could send us all little lights & a roll of tape to fix the problem ourselves.......
post #1230 of 1569
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLows121780 View Post

If it is true that the floating blacks are due to an energy saving algorthm, then it is also possible that a future firmware upgrade can correct this. Everyone one should contact Pansonic about this and demand an update.

Well technically Panasonic could also fix the MLL rise through a firmware update but they just won't. If enthusiasts like us just keep buying their **** every generation then Panasonic will never fix anything. Floating blacks should be very easy to fix. They just have to turn off their CATS completely when the user turns that **** off.

This years model really is the biggest problem child in Panasonic their Plasma TV history:
-Floating blacks
-50Hz bug
-Panning problems
-False contouring
-Lack of 3D controls
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