Panasonic 2010 plasma: Floating blacks - Page 49

Oh, before you shine the light on your sensor while the black level is low, can see any flashing/fluctuating black horizontal bars? This will be easily seen in a dark room with a full black screen or even turning to a blank input should work too.

No, I don't see any flashing/fluctuating black horizontal bars while on a black screen. That might be some IR from watching alot of letterboxed content.

That sounds like the issue my S2 had... bad SS (Sustain) board.

Just kind of skimmed through some of your old posts here. Seems like the same issue. Two separate things going on here, floating blacks and fluctuating/flashing horizontal bars. A light in the sensor fixes both in Cinema mode with my HTPC. But the Standard mode still seems to have some issues. I'll have to experiment using the same video source then changing modes.

So you say a bad SS (Sustain) board? How would I go about getting a new one of those? Not sure if I could just call'm and tell'm to bring one by. Also, to diagnose the issue a tech would need full darkness in the room, only attainable at night, probably around 6pm or later.

I wonder which mode people have tested the black level of these TVs at? Did they test it in a bright room where the black level was high, or in a black room when the black level is low. If the MLL was tested in a bright room, then when the black level drops in a black room with a black signal, then the actual MLL is lower than the rated MLL these S2's actually get. Hmm.

Standard Mode has CATS on by default, at least on the VT25, and so that is a setting to avoid.

I've settled on using THX with ambient room light and to make sure Custom, used on occasion, has AGC at "0". With Custom and an AGC of just "1", it makes floating blacks much more noticeable.

Well my CATS sensor is taped over with black electrical tape and an always on LED. My CATS options are off in all modes. So it's just that a light in the sensor fixes FBs in Cinema, but not Standard.

Looking at the GT25, should I get the Panasonic TC-P50ST30 instead? I could care less about THX if this TV is better and doesn't have the floating black problem.

Yeah... it was the SS board. The tech changed the A and upper and lower scan boards on his first visit... when none of those fixed it both he and Panasonic were initially stumped. Tech thought that Panasonic would send a new TV but after almost two weeks Panasonic sent him a new SS board and that fixed it.

To see it on mine the tech used a blanket as a hood. Also, on mine the set had to be on for 15-20 minutes before the streaking would start.

Well, ever since I put an LED over the sensor, the streaking/flashing horizontal bars are gone, plus floating blacks are nonexistent in Cinema mode. So in actuality my problems are fixed.

Standard mode with Normal temperature still has floating blacks, but I'm only using it as an interim until I get an HD DVR, then my TV watching will be through HDMI w/Cinema & Warm temp with no FBs. But it's good to know there's a possible fix in case it comes back.

I don't think the 30s have been thoroughly tested yet for floating blacks. Once they are released into the public for purchasing & testing, I couldn't imagine any GT25s would be left in stock.

That's good if it is, but if the light on the sensor is elevating the black level, it may just be masking an SS problem if you indeed have one... the fluttering I experienced was only in the extreme near black area (2-3 steps at most)... if there was any content above that (or you raised the brightness control slightly above calibrated black), the fluttering was not visible.

IC, never bothered to spend time editing Standard as I figured it was just an Energy Savings Compliant mode. I only use THX and Custom, of course with CATS off for both.

I noticed it with "The Matrix" the first time I fired it up. It happens on "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince," too. It kills me, because other than some buzz, it is clearly superior to the Samsung 6400 LCD set that I'm also trying out.

Hi all. This is my first time posting here. Been reading these posts for awhile trying to get clues to solve/reduce FB to a minimum on TC-P50G20. I think thru culminating data from other posters that I MAY have come up with a settings work around. No, it is not perfect, but does reduce FB by about 90% on letter-boxed BD content. I do not use this for broadcast HDTV (I am still working that out). Currently use D-nice THX settings for that. Only try this on a G20/25. I have no idea if it will work for any others!

So here is my procedure:
1. Use D-nice SM adjustments in the 2010 Panasonic Settings thread for the G20/25. Apply these before doing anything else. Plenty of instructions available, just search and you will find it. Simple and straightforward.
2. Use a 1.4 HDMI cable. I got mine from Amazon(Basics cable-$8)
3. Set BD player picture setting (if available) to Standard. I have a Sony BDP-S370 and it is available when playing back a dvd/bd under options/video settings. Output is 1080p, all other settings are at Auto.
4. Go to Custom on TV menu, and input the D-nice Pro settings, but change a few things below:
Gamma-2.4
Panel Brightness-High
5.Now enter the following picture settings:
Contrast-66
Brightness-54
Color-27
Tint=(-)3
Sharp-0
Color Temp-Warm 2
Color mgt/ x.v. color/ CATS- off
Video NR-Medium (to reduce noise introduced from high panel brightness)
Blur Reduction-on (to reduce noise introduced from high panel brightness)
Screen Format-Full
HD Size-2
HDMI Range-Auto
Advanced Picture Settings:
Mosquito NR-Off
Black lvl- light

There you go. Should see quite a reduction in FB, with only a slight degradation to overall picture quality. I still have ambient room lighting on, since without it FB will be more active/apparent. I found that by dropping the brightness, I can lessen the effect even more, but the pic gets grainy and darker. I did still find it acceptable at 51, so play with it if you like. Contrast can be brought up if you like. I had it at 68 and found it to be grainy on DVDs but OK on BD. Settled on 66 as a good compromise.

As a final note, I still use D-nice THX settings for 1:85/1 aspect ratios (full screen 16x9) BD/DVD material. This setting is just for narrow letterboxed content like Matrix/Inception/The Dark Knight.

Good luck if you try this. No promises, but it did help me on my 50G20!

I'm curious to know if you've tried the 'light on the CATS sensor' trick? This has 100% fixed my FBs on my 50S2 using 100% of DNice's settings. Which is Cinema mode with Warm temp. Fade ins and fade outs of watching Star Trek Voyager or TNG on my HTPC are perfect, even in a pitch black room with my eyes adjusted. I use Standard on another input and the FBs are present.

No I have not tried the light trick. I have no interest in taping an LED to the front of my tv at this time. I am happy so far with this workaround. May try the light in the future if this fails to work as expected. Cheers!

Hi guys,

I'm considering a VT20. I guess I can deal with the rising blacks as long as the VT becomes cheap enough. However, floating blacks would most definitely bother me. 90% of my watching is done in my bedroom with no lights on at all and so FBs would be even more prominent in such conditions. So if I understand correctly, what we know so far is:

1. Floating blacks are not very noticable in the day probably due to the light sensor and due to the fact that blacks just aren't that noticable on a brighter picture in the day. Much more noticable in low brightness, low contrast settings at night.

2. Shining a light on the sensor seems to make the TV think it's operating in a bright environment and so raises the black level but also stops FBs completely.

3. One member in this thread (jcalabria) mentioned that his FBs were fixed with a change of circuit board. (edit update: member jcalabria never experienced FBs while using "cinema" mode. Instead, the circuit board change he required involved fixing "streaking in near-black conditions".)

4. Some owners report they don't see any FBs while others report theirs to be terrible.

5. Some owners say they don't notice their FBs that much anymore either because:
a. They've become used to it.
b. Perhaps the FBs have actually reduced in severity.



I couldn't read through the entire thread and search the many other thread on this forum to see if this has been raised before. In a nushell:

I'm concerned about points 4 and 5: Has anyone raised the possibility that FBs get gentler with time and could thus be related to the rising blacks? Over at AVForums (European-heavy users), one guy spoke with Panasonic and it was suggested said FBs would disappear after around 2000 hours! Again, some owners have also said that their FBs are not as noticable as when they first got them. Read:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasm...rt-4-a-30.html

So have any VT25/20 owners here used their sets for more than 2000 hours or around there and don't notice FBs anymore? Did many reviewers not mention FBs because the demo TVs they were sent had already done more than 2000 hours or so? Perhaps their circuit boards were also functioning correctly or a combination of factors?

Viewing in a completely dark room, you will easily notice any change in black level, whether it's FB's or RB's.


Why buy a VT20 with its issues when the VT30 is around the corner and probably doesn't have these issues?

'Probably' is one reason. Knowing Panasonic, it'll be wise if I'm not an early adopter. It'll also take months for some of these issues to emerge.

Price is the other issue I mentiond in my post... The VT20 price is low as they try to clear stock. I've been looking for a replacement TV since March of 2010, so I'm getting rather impatient. I'll be another year or so before the VT30 gets to a low enough price point, ASSUMING it has no issues.

If I had to wait that long, I'd frankly consider a local-dimming LED TV. The Samsung D8000 (though it uses 'shutters' instead of dimming LEDs) look promising so far as do the LGs. I won't have to worry about burn-in too.

So have owners of VT20/25 with over 2000 hours of usage noticed a reduction or disappearance of floating blacks?

Chad B just reviewed the ST30 and found no FB's. The black level he measured was also indiciative of it not rising in the future.


Buyer beware..you get what you pay for

Unless of course, black levels start rising from that already high MLL!!! My 2007 Panny Plasma did just that!

Some people have actually reported no FBs with their 2010 sets while other do. We'll need more owners to chime to safely say FBs don't exist (edit: That FBs don't exist with any 2011 models that is).

Then of course, we must remember that this is Panasonic... New 2011 problems could spawn from where the 2010 models left off! The legacy has to continue you know?

It's the single biggest flaw on my VT20(UK), it doesn't happen all the time but certain films or programmes (True Blood is a great example) are particularly afflicted and it really bugs me. From all accounts though, there is nothing I can do about it which is frustrating. I don't get it ever on sports which is what I use my VT20 mostly for and tend now to watch my Pio for films.

Circuit boards were changed in my set for reasons totally unrelated to floating blacks (streaking in near black conditions due to a bad ground path in the SS board). Thankfully, the board swap had no effect whatsoever on FB, since my set has NEVER exhibited even a hint of FB in Cinema mode. While it quite obviously floats black in Standard mode (both before and after the board swap), I really don't care much since Cinema is the only mode ever used.

Thanks for the clarification. I've made changes to my post... I too intend to use "cinema" mode for 90% of my Plasma TV viewing since that 90% will be in the dark. It's the mode I find best for my existing Plasma -with some personal adjustments of course. I don't think I'll mind having mild FBs for standard or dynamic because I'll probably use those settings in the day only, where FBs are less noticable I've heard.

But other members here have FBs in any mode though some modes have it more than others. As far as you're aware, are you the only member here not getting FBs in cinema mode but get it in others?

I seem to recall a few others as well. Other "oddities" with my set are that does not respond to shining a light on the CATS sensor as others do, and it has what I feel is somewhat elevated black level. All of these may be related to the lack of float (as in maybe it's stuck in the elevated mode).

That said, overall I am happy with set. It benefitted greatly from grayscale calibration along with a small gamma boost from my Onkyo's Reon processor... at this point I can't imagine a TV with a better picture at its price point. However, I know I would feel differently if the floating blacks were present.

Well, I can finally understand what the fuss is about

I'm coming from a Sammy A550 LCD and was really intrigued by the plasmas.

I did a bunch of research before pulling the trigger on the 54G25 and the 2 most talked about "cons" are the buzzing issuse and the floating blacks.

Luckily, I don't have the buzzing issue but I witnessed the floating blacks last night. I don't remember which thread it was but someone had mentioned that you could really see the floating blacks in the movie "The Social Network" and I actually had that out on Netflix. During the really dark scenes where it was switching back and forth, I could see a quick flashing or strobbing of the picture. The black would turn white/gray really quick then go back to black. Mind you, I was watching the movie in complete darkness. The rest of the movie was fine and it was only in one particular scene where it was very noticeable. My fiancee who was watching with me didn't say anything, I don't think she noticed. I was waiting for her to say something along the lines of "Why is the screen flashing like that?" but she went about her business. I am by no means hardcore about this stuff but it's definitely there.

I still really love the set though. I mostly watch regular HD programming, a bunch of sports and I game. The deep colors and enchance motion control outshines my old LCD every day of the week.

My next movie, i'm going to try watching it with my living room lamp on.

Maybe I should try that too. I don't see FB's when watching TV programming or gaming with the lights up, but when I dim them down for movies I can see them. Mind you it does not bother me too much because I am coming from a Vizio LCD, and every aspect of this TV blows that out of the water. I think the thing that I benefitted most from the switch was the input lag, I find myself winning many more one on battles on FPS's.

My 2008 did that too...and my 2009...then I jumped ship to Samsung and never looked back

Well...I'll give them one last chance to redeem themselves with the GT/VT30

But in all seriousness, I wouldn't bother with the VT20. It's a discontinued outdated model with black level issues, 50hz processing issues, and mediocre at best SD performance. Why spend thousands of $$$ on something that you know has issues? You've been waiting since March last year, why stop now?


True...but Chad B's review tells me something has changed. There's no way they'd elevate the black level like that for no good reason. And btw Chad can see FB's on the VT25 but none on the ST30, that has to stand for something.

That's very true... But I won't be able to take another black level rise on my Panny plasma. As you may have noticed with your 2008 & 2009 screens, when the blacks rise, so does the overall contrast/average brightness level of the screen. To deal with the most recent rise (around 3400 hours), I had to reduce contrast settings to 0 in cinema mode to keep the picture the same. If one more rise happens, I will no longer have any means of adjusting the screen and pictures will be too bright and glaring for me to watch my movies in the dark anymore. Either that or I'll have to reduce contrast from the source instead.

My research over the past few days are quite quickly shifting my mind towards these options listed in no particular order or preference:


Potential to buy soon or now:
1. LG 55LX9500 or 47LX9500 (Full-array LED Back-lit)
2. Samsung 50C7000 Plasma

Wait for at least 6 months:
1. Panasonic 2011 ST series plasma

Wait for at least 9 months for further price drops at year-end or early 2012:
1. Samsung D7000 Plasma
2. Samsung D8000 (LED Edge-lit with partial local-dimming.)
3. Panasonic 2011 GT & VT plasma
4. LG 55LW9500 (Full-array LED Back-lit)

That is absolutely not meant to happen. Having to reduce contrast to 0 means there is something else faulty with it. It's only black that should get brighter, not the actual screen brightness (contrast).