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Panasonic 2010 plasma: Floating blacks - Page 7

post #181 of 1571
4/22/10 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by texmex55 View Post

does any have any example of scenes in blu rays that its noticed in?

I know that the youtube video that demonstrated the floating blacks used the blu ray "Public Enemies" or "Public Enemy". I forgot.
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post #182 of 1571
4/22/10 at 3:58pm
i saw that one. but thats only in the letterbox, i was looking for one that show the floating blacks in the movie scene


thanks
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post #183 of 1571
4/22/10 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post

Dark City
Dark Mirror
Dark Knight
The Darkness
Darkness Falls
Army of Darkness
Darkness Swallowed
Power of the Dark Crystal
Towards Darkness
Edge of Darkness
Darkness Bride
Dark Country
Dark Fields
Dark Blue
Dark Star
Dark

Hope this helps!

Basically anything with "Dark" in it.

All joking aside, if it is true that it manifests itself in dark scenes that is a real shame because darkness and black levels are some of the main reasons why one would want to go plasma in the first place. The set is supposed to be perfect in this area. And some of the best movies feature darkness and shadows...
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post #184 of 1571
4/22/10 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post

Dark City
Dark Mirror
Dark Knight
The Darkness
Darkness Falls
Army of Darkness
Darkness Swallowed
Power of the Dark Crystal
Towards Darkness
Edge of Darkness
Darkness Bride
Dark Country
Dark Fields
Dark Blue
Dark Star
Dark

Hope this helps!

you forgot the movie DonnieDarko Just kidding. (I think this was the name of the movie)
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post #185 of 1571
4/22/10 at 8:23pm
ok... i have the dark knight.. what scene should i put it on in the store to make sure that i see the floating blacks. i would really like to be able to see this to determine if i would like to purchase this set.


any help would be appreciated...thanks
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post #186 of 1571
4/22/10 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by G20Fan View Post

As said many times before..you can not get rid of them. You will just have to live with it as its a part of the TV...i have grown to live with it.

I can mostly agree with this statement. I don't believe we can rid of the floating blacks because it's embedded too deeply into their real black drive system. My guess is if they change the floating blacks the rising blacks will result in too high of MLL, etc.

What I want to know has Panasonic ever been successful with "Black Levels" since they've been making plasmas. From the research I've done this seems to be an area Panasonic has never got a grasp on. As XROX says they try to disguise their real black levels in one shape or form.

Of course, At the end of the day, I'd still take a Panny as a good bang for buck.

EDIT: This problem does stop me from buying their higher end models, however, so I just grab the S model since the end result is usually the same.

-Megan-
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post #187 of 1571
4/23/10 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionsickness View Post

Some people see these floating blacks and some people don't. I'm sure everyone has a different perception of gamma shift but pretending that it was equal among us I think it would help to pin down the issue if everyone who owns a set could share the following information:

Do you see any floating blacks? None
Panel model and size: 50G20
Brightness of the room when experiencing/not experiencing: Dark
Viewing distance: 8-10 feet
Display settings: THX mode
Contrast - 60
Bright - 55
Color - 50
Sharp - 50
Temp - Normal
CATS - On
Other settings - Default
Content watched: Variety of HD content and Blu-ray movies including Dark City, Avatar, Departed and Bullitt.
Approximate number of hours of usage on the set: 100
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post #188 of 1571
4/24/10 at 1:52pm
can someone please give an example of a scene that they have noticed this on, i would like to bring a blu ray into a showroom to see if i notice it before purchasing the tv.


thanks
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post #189 of 1571
4/24/10 at 2:08pm
In "The Dark Knight" I noticed it several times in the second scene chapter where Batman makes his first entrance and fights the Batman "look a likes". I also noticed it when the Joker infiltrates a certain gang by pretending to be dead in a body bag (scene switches to closeup of gang member being held at gunpoint). Finally I think it could also be witnessed when Batman infiltrates the building in Hong Kong at night.

I will stress that unless it is completely dark in the showroom you will likely not be able to detect any floating blacks, doesn't mean they won't be there when you take the TV home and watch at night in darkness.
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post #190 of 1571
4/25/10 at 4:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by texmex55 View Post

can someone please give an example of a scene that they have noticed this on, i would like to bring a blu ray into a showroom to see if i notice it before purchasing the tv.


thanks

The Matrix is a good movie to witness the floating blacks. Don't make the same stupid mistake I made by taking it to a store and tryed to make comparsions. Obviously the movie was Rated-R so they denyed me. boo-hoo

I hardly notice any floating blacks on SD satellite, but when I want to pop in a blu-ray for a good home theater experience it is a different tale.

-Megan-
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post #191 of 1571
4/25/10 at 4:19am
For references: Model TC-P54S2

Do you see floating blacks: Yes

Brightness of room: I notice it mostly when it is dark, but if I look closely I can still see them in the daytime with the shades pulled.

Viewing distance: 8-14 feet

Display settings- Cimema, but it can be noticed in any mode.

Contrast:73
Brightness: 50
Color:43
Sharp:0
Temp Normal to warm
C.A.T.S off
Tint +10
Everything else is off

Other thoughts:

My satellite by default puts my settings to Dark, but on Blu-ray I am free to use the light setting.


-Megan-
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post #192 of 1571
4/25/10 at 6:40am
Questions...when the blacks get lighter in a brighter scene..is that what you can expect the MILL to look like when it rises? Or is the two completley seperate?

You can see FB's in Terminator Salvation in pretty much any night scene
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post #193 of 1571
4/25/10 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by G20Fan View Post

Questions...when the blacks get lighter in a brighter scene..is that what you can expect the MILL to look like when it rises? Or is the two completley seperate?

You can see FB's in Terminator Salvation in pretty much any night scene

I actually suspect that when the blacks float up that is what it may look like after a MLL rise. Has anyone tried lowering the AGC setting on the G20 in the Pro Menu while set in Custom Mode? It says it adjusts dark signals automatically & can be adjusted from 0-15. To me dark is akin to Brightness but I don't know if they are related either.
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post #194 of 1571
4/25/10 at 8:19am
I just recently purchase the S2 in 46". I noticed the floating blacks right away. I first noticed it while watching in the custom mode and calibrating it based on some settings I found on the internet while researching the S2's trying to calibrate to a D6500K setting

These calibration settings are not necessarily for "movie watching", but I wanted to start with something.

I was watching The Bourne Identity (DVD) and noticed it toward the end when the red tour bus comes by on the screen. The black went way up and then back down once the scene changed.

However, I'm now using the cinema mode with the contrast turned down from the default level (from 100 to 80). My black level is set to dark and I don't notice it near as much. When there is a completely dark scene sometimes I maybe notice a slight "floating effect". But it's much less noticeable. It seems to help to reduce the contrast a brightness just a bit.

I'm not sure why they even need a "feature" like this. Just leave my black levels alone!

Is this something that will get better once I have a 100 hours or so on it?

I have my S2 hooked up to my HTPC using TMT3 for Blu-Ray and DVD. At first I thought it might be a PC issue, but then I found this post!
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post #195 of 1571
4/25/10 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildeCat View Post

Do you see any floating blacks? None
Panel model and size: 50G20
Brightness of the room when experiencing/not experiencing: Dark
Viewing distance: 8-10 feet
Display settings: THX mode
Contrast - 60
Bright - 55
Color - 50
Sharp - 50
Temp - Normal
CATS - On
Other settings - Default
Content watched: Variety of HD content and Blu-ray movies including Dark City, Avatar, Departed and Bullitt.
Approximate number of hours of usage on the set: 100

I will try your settings out and see if that makes a difference but they are fairly close to mine (with the exception of CATS). Question for you: did you notice any floating blacks at all prior to hitting the 100hr mark? Just curious if they went away or if they were never visible for you.
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post #196 of 1571
4/25/10 at 11:02am
I'm in the market for a new TV, and I was hoping to get the VT series until I heard about this. Is this a deal breaker? What other options do I have? The Samsung Plasmas have poor blacks apparantly and might buzz -- however, is it a better option given lack of floating blacks?. Do I need to look at the new LED local-dimming LEDs such as Sony's new HX900? I was hoping for a plasma, but this seems like a major flaw, no? Are people keeping the sets who know about this problem, and why?

Thanks
Aqua
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post #197 of 1571
4/25/10 at 12:51pm
I sure hope I don't end up with that black bar that goes down the middle of some TVs. I already have enough "FEATURES" and don't want anymore.
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post #198 of 1571
4/25/10 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techgurl View Post

I sure hope I don't end up with that black bar that goes down the middle of some TVs. I already have enough "FEATURES" and don't want anymore.

They'll say that's the new split screen feature........ Don't worry Ma'am your set is functioning as it was designed.........
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post #199 of 1571
4/25/10 at 4:42pm
does this issue make this years pannys bad enough that people should pass on and wait till next year?
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post #200 of 1571
4/25/10 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 
Floating Blacks:

G20 (50):

The G20 had floating blacks really bad. I could see them during daytime viewing even. It was major changes. I wasn't impressed by the set overall, so I took it back and exchanged it at BB for a VT20.

VT20 (50):

The VT20 is the best tv I have ever seen. The blacks did float, but not nearly as much as on the G20. The blacks were much darker and in night viewing, I could not see where the blacks of the panel ended and the silver trim of the tv began. I do not know if this is because the silver trim catches just enough light to not look as dark, or if the blacks really are just THAT dark, but it was fantastic. Everything about this set was perfect. But I wanted... bigger. Tv's are like weight lifting or even measuring girth--it's never enough, you always want more.

VT25 (54):

This set is gorgeous. The colors are exceptional, just like the VT20's. The 4 inches in size are very noticeable, especially when viewing 3D--it actually is more evident. The blacks float EVEN LESS than the VT20's did. It's barely evident even in darkness. The problem I am having with this set is that the blacks do not seem as dark as the VT20's. I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me, or maybe it's because the VT25 has a darker trim than the VT20 and I now have a very obvious way to compare while viewing, but the VT25 just does not look as dark, especially the bars, it seems more light passes through, even with brightness down low. The only time the set looks perfectly black is right as I'm starting my blu ray player and there is no source coming into the tv. Then it dims to this perfect black that looks like the tv is off. As soon as the blu ray fires up though, the black gets much brighter. I have a bad feeling that in an effort to eliminate floating blacks, Panasonic just decided to go with not as good of a level. Or maybe I'm nuts. Either way, I'd like to find a way to measure these levels. Anyone have input on this?
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post #201 of 1571
4/25/10 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionsickness View Post

I will try your settings out and see if that makes a difference but they are fairly close to mine (with the exception of CATS). Question for you: did you notice any floating blacks at all prior to hitting the 100hr mark? Just curious if they went away or if they were never visible for you.

I've never noticed any floating blacks and I have a very perceptive eye, to the point of being over-critical at times. Prior to my present set, I had a 42G10 which had a noticeable green/yellow push in the THX mode as well as the changing black level issue. The G20's THX display and black levels are far superior, at least for now.

I can't help thinking the FB's are a flaw with some sets, as was the case with my defective G10 that eventually bit the dust after only three months use. Maybe my luck has changed for the better this time.

By the way, in the off-chance this might be a factor, I play my DVD's with a Panasonic BD-80 and high-end Monster cables. Oh, and I didn't bother with the slide-show ritual this time. Just enjoying the set while I can.
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post #202 of 1571
4/25/10 at 6:07pm
Did you guys ever think that maybe turning CATS on eliminates floating blacks?

Sorry if someone already suggested this.
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post #203 of 1571
4/25/10 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabolino View Post

Did you guys ever think that maybe turning CATS on eliminates floating blacks?

Sorry if someone already suggested this.

Unfortunately, it does not.
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post #204 of 1571
4/25/10 at 6:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Unfortunately, it does not.



Anyway, D-Nice do you think this issue might be fixable with a firmware update or do you think it's more hardware related?
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post #205 of 1571
4/25/10 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabolino View Post



Anyway, D-Nice do you think this issue might be fixable with a firmware update or do you think it's more hardware related?

I know D-Nice answered this exact question in another thread (can't remember which) but his answer was that it probably wouldn't be fixed via a firmware update as it seems to be a feature of the hardware. Although, this thread has the theory (not confirmed) that the floating blacks may be a slight defect in some models.

I've been reading threads about 2010 Panasonic models for a couple months now as I'm saving up for either a G20 or VT 20 and I don't think any of the few VT20 owners have really complained about bad floating blacks so I'm leaning toward the VT series myself. Worst I've read so far is that VT20 has them but it's hard to really notice.
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post #206 of 1571
4/25/10 at 7:43pm
Thread Starter 
Got the 54 VT25 two days ago. There really aren't as many issues with floating blacks, but this is as dark as it gets. I don't think these blacks were as good as the 50 VT20. Does this look normal to you guys?
LL
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post #207 of 1571
4/25/10 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Unfortunately, it does not.

Correct. But going to advanced picture settings and setting the black level to low definitely does. I guess the panel gets so dark that even when there is a sudden increase in light in a scene it is still outputting it below the "threshold" that causes the increased gamma. Just a theory.

I discovered in custom mode there are additional "pro" settings that let you adjust the overall brightness of the panel in three stages (low, normal, high I believe). Haven't messed around with these yet to see if they make a difference but will do so and report back.
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post #208 of 1571
4/25/10 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionsickness View Post

But going to advanced picture settings and setting the black level to low definitely does.

However, it crushes blacks horribly, so it's not a great solution.

Quote:


I discovered in custom mode there are additional "pro" settings that let you adjust the overall brightness of the panel in three stages (low, normal, high I believe). Haven't messed around with these yet to see if they make a difference but will do so and report back.

I doubt it, but do try and let us know. Wouldn't help THX mode either.

Honestly the floating blacks don't seem as bad to me now as when the set was new. I don't know if there's been any actual change or if I've just gotten more used to them. Probably the latter.
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post #209 of 1571
4/26/10 at 3:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabolino View Post

Did you guys ever think that maybe turning CATS on eliminates floating blacks?

Sorry if someone already suggested this.

On my PV-60, decreasing the brightness under fifty "percent", my "floating blacks" were activated. Try to decrease the brightness and loop a scene that is very dark. Turn subtitles on and off and see if the dreaded feature awakes.
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post #210 of 1571
4/26/10 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by apfhex View Post

However, it crushes blacks horribly, so it's not a great solution.


I doubt it, but do try and let us know. Wouldn't help THX mode either.

Honestly the floating blacks don't seem as bad to me now as when the set was new. I don't know if there's been any actual change or if I've just gotten more used to them. Probably the latter.

Agree with everything you said. Setting the black level to dark ruins the picture. Just wanted to share what works and what doesn't work in hopes it will spark some conversation and/or ideas on how to properly solve the issue.

I haven't watched a movie that was consistently dark throughout yet. So far I don't mind it too much if it happens once and a while, but every now and then it will happen multiple times (gamma raises, gamma drops, etc) in a single scene fairly frequently (noticed this during Bad Blake's second performance in Crazy Heart) and that definitely bothers me.

On the other hand if its night time and I turn the lights on I still get a good picture out of this set and virtually no noticeable floating blacks. Then you watch a movie like Che Part 1 and I don't see anything in any conditions. Makes it hard to decide if this is really a dealbreaker or not. I think I prefer it to my Sammy's buzz though. I will watch Bladerunner tonight (practically every scene in the movie is in the dark) and maybe Dark City later to see if my opinion changes.
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