Panasonic 2010 plasma: Floating blacks - Page 28

the magnitude of the float in standard mode seems to be far greater but my trigger value is most certainly far lower. Have you been able to test where the float triggers?

Patents are NOT transferred and Panasonic cant use KURO name
in their products

Pioneer USA is selling Kuro plasmas right now also

Only some technological advices and construction tips have been
transferred

My Samsung 58B650 has no floating blacks. Black level is steady under all contrast/content conditions and Picture modes, TV or disc, whether viewing in normal daylight or dark Cinema room conditions. Don't know about the 2010's though.

Wish Panny would get this stuff right. Maybe 2011?

This is but one small example of floating blacks. It's important to note that the camera is set to a manual exposure, so changes in the perceived exposure are entirely due to the image on the television. Set it to 720p, and watch it a couple times, and you should see it. It's right after it switches to the view of the chair. This is an example of the screen brightening. It also does the opposite, where the whole screen darkens.

This is VERY hard to video, but this is just one example I saw out of about 10 within a two minute scene. Seeing it with the human eye (at least for me) is extremely is easy.

This was on Cinema mode, with contrast and brightness set to 50, and CATS turned off, blacks on low.



And here is a direct link:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9...2s2floatin.mp4

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7143/p1040692.mp4

Youtube compresses these enough, even in 720p mode, that you miss out on shades of grey making it even harder to accurately display the issue. I uploaded a test I did on my 46G20E with a computer connected via HDMI running Windows. I set a black desktop background and started moving around, in and out of screen, a white window, thus altering the average whiteness of the entire image. As expected, black levels increased and decreased in relation to the average.

As seen in the end of the video, this was in THX, contrast 54, colour 48, brightness 0, eco off.

Pioneer sold their Plasma Patent Rights to Panasonic.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1257521076

"Pioneer has confirmed the Panasonic acquisition in their Annual Report from 2009 which can be found here: Pioneer Annual Report 2009.
Pioneer writes:

- "The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of Directors' meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans for a full withdrawal from the display business.""

As you can see, my test video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIqyb4MUrDU has a much much smaller white area, but it's enough to trigger the problem on my LG:




That's why I say that LG is probably worse than panasonic wrt floating blacks (and yes, LG told me that's a perfectly fine panel working perfectly).

Question: ...Will I ever notice this if I only watch movies in a room with dim lighting? I never watch in a pure dark room, and always turn on at least one or two dim lights.

You'll notice I suspect but it will be less of a problem with lighting in the room. I always watch with lighting & I only catch it periodically no doubt not seeing all of them due to ambient light. Overall it's not a huge deal but it is there. Darker content can make it more noticeable too. I don't think it is something that should stop you from buying the set as it has so many good things about it too FWIW.

I've been trying hard to notice this on my G25 ever since I got it, and still haven't seen what they are talking about..... even when watching a very dark movie (Lord of the Rings) in a completely dark room.

And since I believe that some folks are seeing this, it's either that my G25 doesn't exhibit this phenomena, or that it's something that doesn't bother me.

I almost didn't buy the G25 after reading about this (and the rising black levels), as I tend to be rather sensitive to picture quality, but I've been astonishingly happy with it during my first month of viewing............ so make of that what you will.

It seems that either some sets have the problem and some don't (or maybe it's a matter of degree), or that some folks are more sensitive to it than others.

I believe that all of the sets exhibit the 'feature' it just depends on the person and the lighting conditions whether it is easy to see or not. I have had my g20 for about a month now and have only noticed the blacks float once in video - in a scene in The Dark Knight on bluray. I have watched several other blurays and a variety of tv and not noticed it anywhere else.

However, it is much more noticeable when using my htpc and I have no problem noticing it when maximizing/minimizing a window. As long as I don't notice it during the content I am happy, and the picture quality is definitely fantastic.

Well I have a question, some have been saying it depends on when you bought it, that the reason the V's apparently don't have it as the cnet review states, is that they came out a bit later, and that G's made around that time (after a certain spring month?) are no longer affected, or not as badly affected.

has someone been able to verify (or unverify) this?

My S2 is from May, and it has it.

My 46S2 is also a May unit... it does it very noticeably in Standard mode (quite noticeable and distracting even in casual daytime TV viewing) but not at all, even with synthetic tests, in Cinema mode. That does not seem to be consistent between our units, so date alone probably isn't the deciding factor.

I thought the later dates had a softer change in black level rise but I haven't read anything about the removal of floating blacks. Panny confirmed to me over the phone that they do this & are intended to & it is not a defect. But then they always say that....

Hm, well Cnet claims to have not noticed it at all (as have other reviews), so I dunno.

I tried to ascertain if the 2008 model that I have had it in hopes that it did and it was something that when done right (aka, not the 2009 way) that I wouldnt notice, but so far it seems this all started in 2009 for the most part.

Anyway, if anyone can verify a post production date for non-affected sets (this could be for V and G's only), do speak up.

My 42" S2 is now officially returned. Question for people that gave up on 2010 panasonics...where did you turn?

I've already tried a Samsung plasma that buzzed, and I haven't read enough good things about the LG plasmas to go there....so that leaves me with LCD!

The Sharp LC40LE700UN gets really good reviews....but apparently it's being phased out and is hard to find.

I will definitely be gaming on it, so in addition to expecting good picture, I also need low input lag.

Any suggestions?

Just watched my first movie on the 54G25 with May 2010 build date, definitely has floating blacks still. Mostly noticeable on movies with top and bottom black bars, not really noticeable on full screen content.

In what mode? In Standard, my 46" S2 is so bad you can see it with ease on almost any content... but, in Cinema mode - even in critical viewing, specifically looking for it with content that should both cause it to shift black levels and make it obvious if it was occurring - it is rock solid with no black shift whatsoever.

From what has been posted here, this does not seem to be consistent with other reports, but it did save the TV from being returned since I had no intention of using Standard mode, anyway.

I'd just like to state that I don't notice the problem on my 50S2 unless I'm looking for it or the room is dark. This is with both Cinema and Standard modes. I haven't tried "Vivid" because it burns my eyes out.

Also, I noticed it more when using the Panasonic blu-ray player (model 65). Using the HTPC or the TV's tuner, it's not as noticeable.

edit - another note, I've taken to using Black Levels - Dark and setting Brightness to 75. I lose some detail in the day time, but get nice inky blacks at night. That could be related.

On my 54G20, I have it on any mode, any brightness setting, and both before and after changing to D-nice settings.

If you liked the Pannasonic colors you could get one of the professional models. They do not have the floating blacks - nor do they have a tuner or speakers. They do have a longer warranty.

I have a 50S2 and have noticed the floating blacks on my set. I have only noticed it when I watch dark movies with letterbox bars in a completely dark room. If I have dim lights on, I don't notice it, unless I really look for it.

I decided to contact Panasonic about it. This sort of response if probably old news to most of you, but I thought I'd share their response with you guys noentheless:

Thank you for your email. The phenomenon you described below is normal effect of the bright to dark transition of the picture scenes and is not an issue of the TV. In order to minimize power consumption, the TV by design is regulating the overall panel brightness level; this means that when the brightness of a particular movie scene abruptly changes from the bright to dark, the power supply adjusts the average picture level accordingly thus resulting in brightness transition change sometimes noticeable on the panel screen. Also please note that any Plasma panel screen will emit a certain level of brightness when it's powered on. In order to minimize this effect, we recommend setting the Picture Mode to either Cinema or Custom as these 2 picture modes do not have the same power requirements. Also, please ensure that the C.A.T.S. (Contrast Automatic Tracking Systems) setting in Picture sub-menu is turned OFF (Note that when it is turned ON, this feature can affect the picture brightness especially if there is a change in the room's ambient lighting condition).

We hope that this information is helpful.

Sincerely,

Viera Concierge Support Team


I'm wondering if the TVs were designed to do this because it was the only way they could achieve both increased luminosity in their displays and also qualify them for Energy Star 4.0 certification at the same time. Thoughts?

im fairly sure you are correct on their objectives but you are missing the lying through their teeth and trying to anger their customers.

it probably helps with energy star ratings but it probably does not save the user any power whatsoever.

I just bought a 42S2 and I'm evaluating it. The floating blacks are painfully obvious when using a computer desktop with the HTPC...the brightness fluctuates constantly. Luckily I don't actually use my HTPC for computer work or it would be maddening.

On movies, I have definitely noticed it, but not on all movies. What settings should I use to minimize it? So far, it seems like

Picture mode: Cinema or Custom
CATS off

but what about the 'black levels' toggle control and brightness/contrast? If I can't get it to go away, I'll be taking my set back too. Although I have no idea what to replace it with.

I went to an electronic store tonight and looked at a 50" VT25 in one of their side rooms with the doors closed and the lights off. The TV was set to the default THX setting with the CATS setting off. I watched sections from Wall-E and the Dark Night on BluRay via the component input.

Without a doubt, there are floating blacks on the VT25.

Despite this, I did not find them objectionable. I had to mask off the screen and only look at the black letterbox bar to notice any change. When watching the TV, unmasked, focusing on the black letterbox bars, I could sometimes see a change. When watching the TV, unmasked, focusing on the content, like a normal viewing situation, I noticed no fluctuation at all.

For those who know more about this phenomenon, or experience it at home, do you think that my test is conclusive? I am hoping that the results I experienced in the store are the same results that I will experience at home. I am considering buying this TV; however, I don't want to get one home only to find out that my test was flawed and the floating blacks are 10x worse than I thought they would be.

Thanks!

Using D-NICE settings in THX mode and the service menu adjustments. Broke in 100 hours with slides. It is very noticeable in dark knight.

If this is true, it is bad news for those waiting and hoping they will implement KURO tech next year. It means they will never achieve KURO blacks unless energy star standards DECREASE, which will not happen.

They are describing the ABL circuit and not floating blacks. From Panasonic's own patents it seems the floating black is a feature to maximize contrast in dark scenes (see post #41 in this thread) and has nothing to do with power consumption.

I'm sure your correct but to me it reduces the Contrast in dark scenes if anything making them brighter overall. It acts almost like what happens if you lower the Gamma from say 2.2 down to 1.8.