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Panasonic 2010 plasma: Floating blacks - Page 30

post #871 of 1571
Quote:


Does someone have tested a calibration like this ? is it possible to reach same low level of dark like without light on the sensor .

I want to know this too. I returned my S2 because of floating blacks and got an LG. Unfortunately getting the LG reminded me of how good my Panasonic was in every way but floating blacks. I am contemplating buying another Panasonic, and trying to hack the sensor, but it's not clear if the set can be calibrated to a pleasing black level with the light sensor reading 'super bright' conditions from a flashlight/LED.
post #872 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daravon View Post

I want to know this too. I returned my S2 because of floating blacks and got an LG. Unfortunately getting the LG reminded me of how good my Panasonic was in every way but floating blacks. I am contemplating buying another Panasonic, and trying to hack the sensor, but it's not clear if the set can be calibrated to a pleasing black level with the light sensor reading 'super bright' conditions from a flashlight/LED.

I'm about to return my G25 due to floating blacks. I'm not a professional so take my observations for what they're worth, but I placed a small LED in front of the sensor, which caused the blacks to rise as expected and remain constant. Unfortunately, I was unable to get the set to look even remotely like what it does without the constant light source, in any picture mode. Perhaps service menu or other enhancements could help, but I would assume not enough. Damn Panasonic for making that light sensor non-defeatable.
post #873 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by elixxxer View Post

I'm about to return my G25 due to floating blacks. I'm not a professional so take my observations for what they're worth, but I placed a small LED in front of the sensor, which caused the blacks to rise as expected and remain constant. Unfortunately, I was unable to get the set to look even remotely like what it does without the constant light source, in any picture mode. Perhaps service menu or other enhancements could help, but I would assume not enough. Damn Panasonic for making that light sensor non-defeatable.

Why put light on it? To defeat it, it would seem you would want to BLOCK light to it, like black electrical tape!
post #874 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan118 View Post

My S2 is from May, and it has it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post

My 46S2 is also a May unit... it does it very noticeably in Standard mode (quite noticeable and distracting even in casual daytime TV viewing) but not at all, even with synthetic tests, in Cinema mode. That does not seem to be consistent between our units, so date alone probably isn't the deciding factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerillah View Post

Just watched my first movie on the 54G25 with May 2010 build date, definitely has floating blacks still. Mostly noticeable on movies with top and bottom black bars, not really noticeable on full screen content.

So ok, people keep saying "may", anyone with a set AFTER that that still has it? I thought the Cnet review with the VT25 implied they didn't see it because said set didn't even get made until the summer months.

Also, I am confused, so Panasonic did this to qualify for Energy Star....and yet sets have progressively lowered their power consumption year by year, and the 2008 plasmas worked just fine without it and were still energy start certified themselves. So I gotta ask, with what is likely a lower power consumption from a couple years ago regardless, why is there a need to take drastic means to qualify for energy star this year all of the sudden?
post #875 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

Why put light on it? To defeat it, it would seem you would want to BLOCK light to it, like black electrical tape!

Absolutely not. Putting electrical tape will put it in dark mode always. Dark mode is when the floating blacks are the worst according to this thread. (I don't know this from personal testing as I can't find my flashlight and I don't have any IR LED's about but I have noticed floating blacks were less intrusive during the day but I thought it was a biological optical effect or a reflected light effect.)
post #876 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediman View Post

Absolutely not. Putting electrical tape will put it in dark mode always. Dark mode is when the floating blacks are the worst according to this thread. (I don't know this from personal testing as I can't find my flashlight and I don't have any IR LED's about but I have noticed floating blacks were less intrusive during the day but I thought it was a biological optical effect or a reflected light effect.)


This is incorrect. It doesn't make a difference if you block the light because the floating blacks are dependant not only on the amount of light in the room, but also the amount of light in the on-screen image. I have tested this. If you block the light sensor, as soon as the on-screen image is bright enough, the blacks rise.

The only way to keep the blacks stable is to shine a light on the senor at all times which does prevent the blacks from darkening, even if the on-screen image is very dark.

I have also tried to re-calibrate the blacks back down to the dark level with a light shined on the sensor, but the blacks never looked as dark as they do when they "float" to their lower setting.

I've found this issue is really mostly noticable in a very dark room while watching a movie with black letter-box bars. If you are watching a movie that fills up your entire screen (no letter-box bars), the floating blacks are difficult to notice (even if you room is completely dark). So, while this is an annoying issue with the TVs, it's not a complete deal-breaker (at least in my opinion).
post #877 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

So I gotta ask, with what is likely a lower power consumption from a couple years ago regardless, why is there a need to take drastic means to qualify for energy star this year all of the sudden?

Because Energy Star certfication becomes more stringent in order to qualify. This year they came out with more stringent rules to qualify, known as Energy Star 4.0. Last year was 3.0. So, if you want your new products in 2010 to be energy star qualified, they have to qualify under the 4.0 rules. If they meet the 3.0 rules, but not the 4.0 rules, they will not be given an Energy Star certification for 2010.
post #878 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchester View Post

Because Energy Star certfication becomes more stringent in order to qualify. This year they came out with more stringent rules to qualify, known as Energy Star 4.0. Last year was 3.0. So, if you want your new products in 2010 to be energy star qualified, they have to qualify under the 4.0 rules. If they meet the 3.0 rules, but not the 4.0 rules, they will not be given an Energy Star certification for 2010.

Hm, seems like a bad year for them to change the standards then. However, it does seem like power is just inherently reduced via non-corner cutting technology advancements, so it's dissapointing to hear they would have to be so sloppy when it comes to getting in under the new requirements if they already had reductions outside of that. Particularily with the problems almost being WORSE last year, and as you said, it was the older standard.
post #879 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckchester View Post

This is incorrect. It doesn't make a difference if you block the light because the floating blacks are dependant not only on the amount of light in the room, but also the amount of light in the on-screen image. I have tested this. If you block the light sensor, as soon as the on-screen image is bright enough, the blacks rise.

The only way to keep the blacks stable is to shine a light on the senor at all times which does prevent the blacks from darkening, even if the on-screen image is very dark.

I have also tried to re-calibrate the blacks back down to the dark level with a light shined on the sensor, but the blacks never looked as dark as they do when they "float" to their lower setting.

I've found this issue is really mostly noticable in a very dark room while watching a movie with black letter-box bars. If you are watching a movie that fills up your entire screen (no letter-box bars), the floating blacks are difficult to notice (even if you room is completely dark). So, while this is an annoying issue with the TVs, it's not a complete deal-breaker (at least in my opinion).


thats exactly what i said

I have tested this myself now and can say first hand that a bright light on the sensor actually SOLVES the floating black problem (makes the tv always at its upper black level). I will be making a contraption to light the sensor shortly and I will be free of panasonic's insults.


Also, IR light triggers the removal of floating blacks as well so the light need not be visible.
post #880 of 1571
An LED hiding behind an emitter shield should work, whether the light is visible or not. Easy to apply, relatively discreet and removable if necessary.
post #881 of 1571
wow 4.50 for a junk peice of rubber. they sure know how to gouge u av people huh. want me to link you some monster cables?
post #882 of 1571
no one is interested in this fix? anyone willing to short the photodiode?
post #883 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediman View Post

no one is interested in this fix? anyone willing to short the photodiode?

That was my thought too, there has to be an easy way to rewire the sensor so that you don't have to have a flashlight in front of your TV all the time.

It will take someone with more electronic knowledge than me though.
post #884 of 1571
I thought I’d share my experience with this floating blacks issue:

I made an impulse purchase a few days ago and got a TC-P50U2 without doing much research (I couldn’t pass up the price). After the set arrived, I put it in Cinema mode / Warm temp, performed a quick calibration of the basics (black level, white level, color, tint, and sharpness) with the AVS HD 709 disc. I also took some measurements with my i1 Display LT, and the MLL was an impressive 0.008 ftL! I thought I had made a smart purchase.

However, when I sat down to watch True Blood (lots of dark scenes), I noticed a “pulsating” or “strobing” of the black level. It was very distracting. I looked it up here on AVS, and discovered the name for it – “floating blacks”. Ugh!

I was curious to see how much the MLL rises (I didn’t see if anyone had measured it yet), so last night I displayed a 0 IRE signal and confirmed my prior .008 reading. Then, I shined a flashlight on the sensor (yes, I have C.A.T.S. OFF), and the reading jumped to .026!

I wanted to see this difference with real world content, so I put in The Matrix Blu-ray and watched the scene where Trinity rolls down the staircase and points her guns at the broken window (chapter 2 or 3, I believe). I did this in a dimly lit room without the flashlight on the sensor, and a previous poster is correct – the black level jumps up and down multiple times. I then re-watched the same scene with a flashlight on the sensor. This yielded the higher blacks, of course, but they were stable. It’s a tough call – do I stick with the floating blacks and get .008 (only on the darker scenes), or do I take the hit and get a stable .026 by always shining a light on the sensor? I’m leaning towards the second option, because I find the changes in MLL poorly timed and very distracting.

-AVSman

P.S. Earlier someone asked if you could calibrate the black level back down from the higher value – I tried with the user settings but couldn’t. (With a light on the sensor, I lowered the Brightness setting all the way down to 0, but the MLL stayed at .026). Maybe there is something to tweak in the service menu?
post #885 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediman View Post

wow 4.50 for a junk peice of rubber. they sure know how to gouge u av people huh. want me to link you some monster cables?

Yeah, I know. You could buy a whole roll of electrical tape for that and really decorate your TV.
post #886 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSman View Post

P.S. Earlier someone asked if you could calibrate the black level back down from the higher value - I tried with the user settings but couldn't. (With a light on the sensor, I lowered the Brightness setting all the way down to 0, but the MLL stayed at .026). Maybe there is something to tweak in the service menu?

Thanks for your test ; I hope you are right ; service menu is our last chance

Last year on Samsung B650 with cinema smooth ( 24P mode ) ; same rise of black level with another kind of floating .... and for the last manufactured in 2010 , no bug
post #887 of 1571
Quote:


If you are watching a movie that fills up your entire screen (no letter-box bars), the floating blacks are difficult to notice (even if you room is completely dark). If you are watching a movie that fills up your entire screen (no letter-box bars), the floating blacks are difficult to notice (even if you room is completely dark).

Not on my S2! It was very obvious even (especially!) in the main picture area. Dark Knight was literally unwatchable. There are scenes where the brightness level jumps 2-3 times each time the camera angle changes. I wouldn't even notice if the black bars changed.
post #888 of 1571
My 50G25 was delivered on July 28. Didn't notice floating blacks at all, and I really looked for them.

Maybe they were there all along, or maybe not, but over the weekend I was watching Heat with some friends and the picture started going bonkers in the darker night scenes. The scene's brightness was going up and down within the shot, the black bars were going from flat black to gray, it was insane. And since then, everything I've looked at has been awful.

And as Daravon said, The Dark Knight is unwatchable, especially in the warehouse scene at the end when Gordon is trying to talk a bad guy out of doing something awful. Every time the camera is on Gordon, the blacks shift about four or five times per shot, and of course the black bars are going crazy right along with them.

I called Panasonic last night. The gentlemen I spoke to was very nice, but he was also about 107 years old. He said someone from tech support would call me back within the week.

We shall see. I'm sure I'm waiting for a phone call that will inform me that everything about my eyes and my house is wrong, and that everything about the TV is working exactly as designed.

Have there been any new whispers or rumors of a firmware fix or anything that can take care of this?

I don't want to start jacking around the picture settings to something that's unwatchable for me, just so that I can defeat the floating blacks. I spent months saving for a big plasma TV, and when a person spends this kind of money, concessions and excuses shouldn't have to be made. The TV should just take what's on my Blu-Ray and show it to me in the most beautiful way possible rather than making its own decisions about how much extra light to jam into a scene that was lit the way it was lit for a reason.

I'm disgusted. I'll wait for Panasonic's call just to see what they say, but I'm not holding out hope. The G25 is probably going to get returned.

Back to LCD, I suppose? This is outrageous. But what else can we do?
post #889 of 1571
Thanks everyone for documenting this issue. I am a new TC-P54G25 owner and have experienced a bit of the floating blacks. I would really like to dig into this a bit more & understand what is going on. Could some of you help me understand something?

On page 34 of the manual, CATS is described as "Adjusts the brightness and gradation according to the ambient lighting condition. (Off/On)".

- If CATS is set to OFF, should the IR sensor be completely disabled?
- Are 'floating blacks' just a symptom of CATS not actually turning off even though the menu is supposed to do so?
- What happens if CATS is actually turned on? Are the floats better/worse/different?

javamon & AVSman did some great documentation of this earlier but I guess I"m still stuck on if CATS is just broken OR do the sets actually have deeper issues.

Test results to come tomorrow after I play around tonight.
post #890 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by zurgdawg View Post

Thanks everyone for documenting this issue. I am a new TC-P54G25 owner and have experienced a bit of the floating blacks. I would really like to dig into this a bit more & understand what is going on. Could some of you help me understand something?

On page 34 of the manual, CATS is described as "Adjusts the brightness and gradation according to the ambient lighting condition. (Off/On)".

- If CATS is set to OFF, should the IR sensor be completely disabled?
- Are 'floating blacks' just a symptom of CATS not actually turning off even though the menu is supposed to do so?
- What happens if CATS is actually turned on? Are the floats better/worse/different?

javamon & AVSman did some great documentation of this earlier but I guess I"m still stuck on if CATS is just broken OR do the sets actually have deeper issues.

Test results to come tomorrow after I play around tonight.

To answers your first question, the IR sensor should be off completely. However, I noticed very little (if any) difference in floating blacks with CATS enabled or disabled. The screen is adjusting to the brightness of the image displayed, so even with the IR sensor completely disabled (assuming it is not already), blacks may still float. It's simply piss poor programming on Panasonic's part, perhaps to meet Energy Star certification standards as has been suggested, but at the severe expense of user enjoyment.
post #891 of 1571
I'm at a terrible crossroads. I have an appointment for Amazon to come and take my G25 away. And I don't want to let it go because I love everything about it ... except for how badly the blacks are floating.

If there were some kind of fix for something that seems so simple, I'd keep it in a heartbeat.

And if I knew they were going to release a firmware fix in two weeks or even two months, I'd tough it out. But it's obviously not going to be resolved before I lose my window (on August 26) to send it back for a full refund.

And I'm afraid that if I keep it in hopes that a fix might be found, that fix will never come, and I'll have to live with a set that's absolutely unwatchable for one silly, stupid reason.

I'd love to be able to call Amazon and tell them not to worry about coming to take it away, but Panasonic just isn't playing ball.
post #892 of 1571
John, have you been able to contact Panasonic about the floating black problem? I have a 50VT25 and also can notice the floating black issue in certain scenes, I've not seen a G25 in person so I don't know if my floating blacks are at the same level as yours or not.
post #893 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by darshan_4 View Post

hey guys i just recently bought tc-p50V10 tv...

Quote:


Editors' note, March 3, 2010: Testing conducted on 2009 Panasonic plasma TVs, similar to this one, has revealed that black-level performance has become noticeably less impressive within what is typically the first year of ownership. As a result, we don't feel confident that the initial picture quality of this TV, as described in the review below, can be maintained over the course of its lifetime, and therefore find it difficult to recommend. Its Performance score has been accordingly reduced by one point to better indicate comparative picture quality after 1,500 hours of use.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...ml#reviewPage1

Quote:


Update April 2, 2010: Long-term testing shows similar loss of black level performance in two other Panasonic plasmas tested by CNET. Click here for details.

Panasonic has confirmed that its plasma TVs reproduce brighter black levels by design as they age, but will not divulge exactly how much brighter after how long. New testing conducted by CNET provides some hints.

Results from two aged Panasonic plasma TVs purchased in 2009 indeed show brighter blacks, and correspondingly reduced picture quality, compared with similar 2009 models with fewer hours.

The two aged TVs were a TC-P50G10 owned by CNET Senior Editor John Falcone and a TC-P42G10 loaned to us by CNET reader Efrain Perez. Both had approximately 1,500 hours of use, which at the average rate of 5.2 hours per day works out to about 9.6 months of age, at the time testing was conducted. We also measured another 50-inch TC-P50G10 and a 50-inch TC-P50V10, each with about 500 hours.

According to our measurements, the models with 1,500 hours both reproduced black at 0.023 footlamberts; the 500-hour models measured 0.008.

In an attempt to corroborate the measurements with real-world material, we conducted a side-by-side viewing session, attended by CNET staff and otherwise modeled after our standard TV test procedure, that pitted Efrain's TV against the 50-inch V10. When we originally compared a G10 with the V10 in 2009, using new review samples, we called their black level performance "basically the same."

That wasn't the case this time around. In dark scenes from "The Dark Knight" on Blu-ray, the 500-hour V10 clearly displayed a darker shade of black than the 1,500-hour G10, leading to more-realistic reproduction of nighttime city-scapes in Chapters 2 and 8, for example, the rooftop parlay in Chapter 8, and the silhouette of Bruce Wayne as he enters the room in Chapter 18. The difference was also visible in letterbox bars, albeit less so, in numerous brighter scenes. This viewing session was conducted with each TV set to the default THX picture mode, with no adjustments made to any picture settings.

Questions linger
The differences we observed and measured could be the result of what the company calls the normal aging process. According to Panasonic's statement, made after we first reported user complaints about this issue: "...Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control, which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours. As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value."

For what it's worth, however, these increases in black level performance over time don't seem normal in our experience. I haven't noticed any sudden change in black level on my 2005 Panasonic at home, for example, and a Pioneer Kuro we've used as a reference since September 2008 shows no increase.

...

We contacted Panasonic with these test results but the company declined to comment because of pending litigation related to the issue.

...

Whether the increase is noticed by everyone or even a majority of viewers, the results we measured on two different models, and saw in our side-by-side comparison, are enough to make us modify our reviews of all 2009 Panasonic plasma TVs accordingly (yet again). Their Performance scores will be reduced across the board by one point, bringing them more into line with the competition in light of their increased black levels.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...ml?tag=rvwBody

It doesn't bode well for Panasonic.
post #894 of 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pabgon View Post

John, have you been able to contact Panasonic about the floating black problem? I have a 50VT25 and also can notice the floating black issue in certain scenes, I've not seen a G25 in person so I don't know if my floating blacks are at the same level as yours or not.

I did -- I called Panasonic and had a conversation with a nice gentleman who was about 107 years old. He told me a technician would call me within 72 hours. I also tried doing a live chat with Panasonic support, and was told some of the following nuggets:

If you want to return the tv, that would be your decision. Black levels can change from scene to scene if you go from a bright scene to a dark one. as the current demand on the power supply changes greatly. With the federal emphisis on energy conservation in the design of tvs, this problem becomes worse not better. There are currently no firmware updates for this condition.

I know you won't believe this, but we have had very few calls with regard to this situation. I know what you are saying but the cause may not even be the tv. In any case, you can discuss it with the tech that is going to call you. If you elect to return the tv, I hope that you are more satisfied with your next one.


So then I asked him what would happen if they decided it was something fixable. He said an appointment would be made to fix it. I told him I was running out of my window to be able to return it to Amazon for a full refund, and if they screwed around so long that I missed my window to return it, would Panasonic take responsibility for that? His answer:

I cannot debate a lot of what if situations with you. Panasonic will not replace the set or give a refund. Your warrenty covers service only and this may not even be a service issue.

Basically, the only option they've left me with is to return it. And I hate them for it.
post #895 of 1571
So it seems the question now is how are we going to find someone with the know how to come up with a homebrew firmware that resolves this? And who will have the cajones to risk bricking their TV to test it?

I haven't been an AVS addict for long, some of you older members: has homebrew firmware even ever been done?
post #896 of 1571
CALLING ALL CARS! CALLING ALL CARS!

I have a respectful dialogue going with Panasonic on their Facebook page, right here.

Please join in and support me! Please! Please help me get some attention to this problem -- and a fix for it -- by joining in on the conversation. We can do this, people!

Please be courteous and concise. Let's give it all we've got.
post #897 of 1571
It's a shame I'm at work and I can't join you, if possible tell them that the VT's also have this problem, I don't know if in the same degree of the G's but I have also noticed floating blacks on it, especially on the Dark Knight blu ray...
post #898 of 1571
If you can, please join in when you get home from work. If I can get them to acknowledge it and start discussing a firmware update, I'll keep my G25. Otherwise, it's going back.
post #899 of 1571
the video on youtube seems the best evidence of it , no ?
post #900 of 1571
O.k. I'll do that.....Did you send them a link to this forum? so they can see the problem is real and there are many people affected by this.
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