The "Official" Onkyo TX-SR608 Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 63

I hate to interrupt the pi**ing match over the 608, but I have a technical question since I just got mine last night. Fire extinguisher at the ready!

I'm not a big audiophile but have a movie room and will use the receiver mostly for movies and PS3 games, a few TV programs through a DVR. This receiver is new/upgrade to get the HDMI capability I didn't previously have. I've got it all hooked up and running but not done anything with the Audyssey yet. My confusion is in regards to crossover frequencies and where those need to be..... I have all AV123 speakers and the AV123 MFW-15 sub.

Fronts, RS760 - Freq Response is 36Hz-20KHz
Center, RSC200 - Freq Response is 44Hz-20Khz
Sides, RSS300 - Freq Response is 60Hz-20Khz
Backs, Ref.5 - Couldn't find any specs on these
Sub, MFW-15 - 18-200Hz, in room response extends to 15-17Hz (??)

I run a projector, no TV. Thanks for any input.

Generally it is 80hz around the board and set the LPF to 80hz, but keep in mind really it is what sounds best to you. I don't always have my sub on all the time so I have my towers set to 40 Hz. Since you're not a hardcore audiophile, I can relate, I would set everything but the towers to 80 Hz. If you want to go a little above and get some added bass set your sides to 60 Hz, but I personally think you wouldn't be gaining enough for the loss of balance/blend. Leave the center at 80 Hz for sure and for the backs match what the sides are at. If you find the Ref. 5 can't handle 60 Hz (if you choose) leave everything at 80 Hz.

I personally love bass, but I have found in the past when I dropped my speakers below 80 I was getting more bass, but at the loss of some clarity. There is some truth behind letting the sub handle everything south
of 80.

Those are different "watts". The RMS rating is not an equivalent of power drawn from the outlet and many argue it does not even represent any "power" at all. At best it can be considered a "proxy representative" of power, and is only useful in comparative context (to compare 2 amps measured the same way), not as an absolute number.

You need a different MATH BOOK.

Lets do some basic math.

Watts/Volts=Amps for 7 channels driven

770/110=7amps

Onkyo shows 6.3amp draw thus: 700/100=6.3amps at 7 channels.

Nearly the same, the only way the Pioneer could consume 245 watts would be at a different voltage to get the same power output. Unless it's magically making power.

The Pioneer will take more power to drive 7 channels at it's rated output than the onkyo, which it should of course since it's 10w more per channel.

Heat is lost energy, if both devices are getting the same RMS output from the above amperage, heat output would be the same, how it's distributed could make one feel cooler than the other, but you can't get around physics here.

Now this might mean one of the manufacturers is lying about actual output. I'm not going to risk my receivers to verify that, all I will verify is outlet draw.

Idle draw is not pointless, if the receiver is on, it will be using more energy than standby, even if it's not making noise. Some people (like me) forget to turn them off all the time and it's good to know how much juice I'm wasting.

You Have the RIGHT MANUAL.

THAT is the IDLE Power used without Audio -

How can you have 880 Watts of Audio and do it with 245 Watts -
Wake Up. Did Pioneer INVENT new laws of Physics.

Pioneer is THAT good!

Two amp draw could never give that kind of power. And that's at 120v rating, not exactly conservative. I usually get around 113-115 at my house. At least Onkyo keeps it real at 110v.

At 100% efficiency (impossible) that Pioneer can only make 245 watts of total power, unless it's a typo or magic. That's what....35watts max per channel. Hope it's a typo.....

It doesn't work that way. that is a audio based number... What is going into it is AC from the wall which is 245w....

"In actuality, the amplifier generates a completely new output signal based on the input signal. You can understand these signals as two separate circuits. The output circuit is generated by the amplifier's power supply, which draws energy from a battery or power outlet. If the amplifier is powered by household alternating current, where the flow of charge changes directions, the power supply will convert it into direct current, where the charge always flows in the same direction. The power supply also smoothes out the current to generate an absolutely even, uninterrupted signal. The output circuit's load (the work it does) is moving the speaker cone."

source: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/amplifier1.htm

Here is a cool page with a calculator on how to derive http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm... actually the Pioneer if only using 245w is more efficent (taking into account 20w less audio power)but by only a little based on the equation
of Ohms law. Ohm's law equation (formula): V = I × R and the power law equation (formula): P = I × V.
P= watts
I= ampers (6.8)
V= Volts (54.4)
R= Resitance (8 ohms)

Pioneer: 245 Onkyo: 369.92....

I have replied to that already. Again, those are different watts, and RMS power is a very misleading number. Google around it, you will find plenty of writeups on the subject.

Pioneer is "that good" because it's a class D amp, while Onkyo is class A/B.

Btw, Samsung HW-C700 (also class D) claims power consumption of 75W (and Energy Star certification). They are not advertising output at 8ohms/0.08%THD, but they are advertising 6ohms/0.9%THD at 120watts. Some vendors like Denon advertise both variants, and if extrapolation works for this (which is a big if), Samsung would be around RMS output "equivalent" of Pioneer.

Maybe they have even better "magic" than Pioneer. Or maybe I am an "owned Samsung-paid Fanboy" now. But I thought this is was "AVS *science*" forum. Science is supposed to be about data and logic. This thread sounds more like religion - any time I say something that displeases some 608 faithful, even if it's simply quoting the specs, people come out of woodwork with personal insults, as if I have offended their prophet.

Why don't we all stick to data and logic, and avoid high school level comments. If you can throw a power meter at something and prove me wrong - I am all ears. I will listen to logic too, but do your homework and do not come out swinging with junior high physics.

In fact I would be pretty happy to be proven wrong in this case. I would like to get to the truth here. I believe manufacturers would put themselves on shaky grounds if they mis-advertise something as fundamental as power consumption. That would invalidate their electrical certification, which would block all legal sales. They would be asking for class action suit, and would be open to FTC fines since competitors would not miss an opportunity to call their bluff.

This is an interesting battle.

onkyo7200, who do YOU think is right

Owlish or drhankz?

Ok, so I did the power measurements:

At 118v, 5.1 DD from Angels and Demons, chase seen on the roof when the music gets loud. The Loud Music column is just a reference from some crappy but loud R&B off my cable box.

Level: Watt Draw(Movie Music) Watt Draw(Load Music) Watt Draw(Vocals Only)

-50 62 66 61
-40 64 70 63
-30 65 73 64
-20 68 81 65
-10 69 90 66

These were all an average of three readings after repeating the exact same 30 second clip and taking in the highest output displayed. There was one variation on the -10 where it hit 110 so I did another few on that but didn't see it again.

This was so loud my wife left the room yelling at me, -20 is about the max I would stand on a regular basis.

This proves:

A. Amps are rated (capable) of much more than most people will ever use.
B. The Onkyo is NOT a power hog! Though the Pioneer may be even less of one.
C. Regardless of RMS, AC, DC, etc. the Onkyo is not what I would term inefficient with an A/B amp.

Back when I did pro car audio, nobody would use a class D amp for anything but subs, they sounded like crap, I'm guessing that has changed, but has it changed enough that a class D can sound as clean as an A/B? That's something to consider.

The meter showed 0watts when turned off, meter doesn't show 10ths, and 59 when on, so it does use quite a bit when on with no sound.

Edit: Had a typo of 70 instead of 90

My ANSWER IS - WHO CARES - what I hope is that Owlish will buy a Pioneer

Class D amps are more efficient, but have tendecy to be prone to distortion. That said, I'm not saying they all have more distortion, but that they have to put more technology and more expensive parts into one to achieve specs that Class A/B amps can make at a lower price.

Glad to hear they sorta fixed their issues. I remember class d amps with greater than 5% THD (no, not .5%). Yeah, we avoided those like the plague.

I don't think this really is a right or wrong IMO... I have said earlier I wouldn't trade my 608 for the Pioneer. I like the features of the Onkyo too much to sacrifice it for something solely based off efficiency. I bought this amp knowing it would use power and create some sort of heat. Nothing runs ice cold, maybe cooler but not with no heat what so ever. I think Owl just is pointing out simple science of the difference of the amps, but it has somewhat looked as if he is blasting the Onkyo for an issue that really isn't a concern. I think it has gone above and beyond what it should have, but basically the message we need to keep true is both are great products but really can't compare 245 watts vs. whatever the Onkyo is solely based for the reason they are different technologies. Which operate completely differently and can't be directly compared apples to apples. Each has to give and take. The pluses for the Pioneer are also negatives in some since, and same goes for the Onkyo. When it comes down to it the Onkyo is the better amp for what I want.

There are now THX certified class D amps. Pioneer makes those, although those were all in the Elite line. The 1120 will supposedly be the first non-Elite class D with THX.

LOL +1... same here


+1 again, At the low frequencies that subs operate distortion isn't much of an issue.

Good to know!

608 Power Consumption
Here is what I take away from this:

The Onkyo at reasonable listening levels uses between 61 and 81 watts (61 is -50db vocal only, 81 is -20db thumping R&B) and at ear splitting volumes it uses between 66 and 90 watts (-10db, vocal only and R&B).
In the Onkyo manual it states it will draw 34 watts in standby mode (that is the hdmi circuitry draws 34 watts when the amp is off).
Therefore at reasonable listening levels the 608 amp uses between 27 and 47 watts and at ear splitting volumes the amp uses between 32 and 66 watts.

These conclusions are for michaelahess' real world measured system, so they apply to his room and speakers and probably vary for other people, but its nice to see a real world data point.

So if we assume the Pioneer is twice as efficient as the Onkyo then at reasonable listening levels michaelahess could be saving between 13.5 and 23.5 watts or at earsplitting levels he could be saving between 16 and 33 watts.

Sweet, we've put real numbers to this so people can make an informed decision between the Onkyo 608 and Pioneer 1020 -- now we can stop talking about that in this thread.

608 compared to Pioneer 1020

Here is a summary of differences:
-608 has THX certification and listening modes
-608 "wastes" between 13.5 and 33 watts to a less efficient amp
-608 has 100 watts of output power vs pioneer's 80 watts
-608 has Audyssey 2EQ vs MCACC in pioneer
-608 has Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ (does pioneer have similar?)
-608 has an optional ipod doc vs pioneer ships with usb cord to hook up to ipod
-608 is warmer than 1020, but so far there has not been any report of the 608 being problematically warm (it could be an issue if you place the 608 in a closed compartment with little to no room on all sides (which might also be a problem for the pioneer))
-608 remote is programmable, pioneer remote is learning
-608 has no networking/internet radio, pioneer does
-608 has OSD volume overlay, pioneer does not
-608 can access all setup features though OSD, pioneer does not
-608 has HDMI ARC, pioneer does not
-608 uses Faroudja video processing, pioneer uses Anchor Bay

More info on 1020 vs 608 (I need to condense and reorganize this post...):
Ipod specific differences:
608 will not show album art even with the dock. Just text. 1020 does show album art, and its supplied cord can be plugged into regular Apple dock. Also important here is list of supported OSD languages - neither model will show ID3 tags for songs if they are not in one of languages supported by that model's OSD. The list differs between Onkyo & Pioneer. English-speaking crowd probably does not care, but for people who have songs in different languages/tags, it is pretty important.

Pioneer HDMI reassignment quirk:
Pioneer does not allow HDMI inputs to be reassigned if you have HDMI-CEC enabled. That makes it nearly useless, because 1020 will keep switching to "TV" input if HDMI-CEC is enabled (and you can't tell it to use HDMI for that input). It's probably one of the most annoying/illogical/self-contradicting "features" I can think of. Disabling HDMI-CEC is what most people end up doing, and with 1020 that means no volume indicator on TV screen, since it has no OSD overlay.

Remote differences:
Onkyo remote has no "sequencing" capability, Pioneer's does.
Onkyo remote has one unusual feature - there is no dedicated power button for the receiver itself. Most brands have that, so you can turn receiver on/off regardless of what input is selected. With Onkyo if you select an input, your power button is no longer working for the receiver. Have to press "receiver" to get it back.
Pioneer's remote has no dedicated buttons for all HDMI ports (except BD port). Have to cycle through by pressing (one) HDMI button. Not too bad if you can reassign them, but see above about HDMI reassignments limitations.


PM me if there are other difference and I'll add them to the list so we can just point people to this post and be done with the 1020 vs 608 issue.

I'd like to see the same experiment on the equivalent Pioneer, just for curiosity. Anyone got both? Or someone wanna ship him a 1020? Heh!

I'm up for that

Forgot to mention, this is with 5 8" 8ohm monoprice in ceiling speakers and a BIC venturi 12" sub.

I've been following this thread for awhile now (waiting for a back-ordered 608 I bought at the sale price from ABT), and I had to join AVS to thank you for getting some actual measurements and posting the numbers! Finally, we can see how terrible or negligible the efficiency/power issue is rather than just arguing back and forth.

I don't mind using a lot of electricity for something I consider "worth it" (like AC), though I do prefer to use less if possible to keep my bills down. The 700+ watts one gets from the 608 manual did have me a little concerned, but if your real-world measurements are accurate then the heat/efficiency/power is a complete non-issue to me personally. Each will have to decide for himself/herself, but a desire to use less than the Onkyo's 80 watts at -20 is at the very, very bottom of my "desired receiver feature set" list.

Also very glad you included a measurement of its power consumption while silent but not on standby. Knowing it uses less than 1 watt at standby versus about 60 when simply silent is an incredibly useful fact for anyone trying to reduce their electric bill.

I am left with one, nagging curiosity however.... What must one do to make the Onkyo 608 draw 700+ watts from the wall? If someone could make it pull even as much as 650 watts and post what they had to do to draw that much I'm sure we'd all be quite amused.

I got a same problem with 1st unit from newegg.
Nothing else you can do with it. Just return and get the new one.
Is it has a sticker on the face plate of unit? Just wondering...

Spec for 1020 says it consumes less than 1W in standby mode (0.8W with HDMI Control on), vs 34W on 608. You have to account for that, even if your conjecture is correct. Which may not be the case. There has to be a reason why manufacturers put high consumption numbers into specs. They have to get electrical certification, and there are very specific ways things need to be measured.


I will quote myself, from another thread. This was written from the perspective of 1020 vs 608. So everything listed in the "Cons" section is better with 608 than with 1020.

Dude, standby is 0watts, unless you have hdmi control on. Yes pioneer is better with hdmi control, but for those of us that don't use it (majority?) it's a non-issue.

which TV do u have?

My last receiver, before switching to Onkyo, was a Pioneer. I did not measure any power consumption for the Pioneer but it sure sounded like it wasn't using much electricity.

Bottom line.....608 Rocks!! I can afford the power bill.

Yeah, and it's an OWNERS thread.. didn't that dude that calls himself owl... or whatever say he sent his back..??

I'm having problem with the 3D signal passthru on the 608. Anyone else got this?