My Humble HT/Living Room - Page 5

Figured I would update my thread with some more current pics

In the past 3 months I found a lot of deals on blurays at local pawn shops, previously viewed at Blockbuster, Moviestop and online, so I increased my collection with about 70 more blurays than we previously had . We had to buy another DVD cabinet that is now sitting in my office waiting to be filled with new blurays

Here are the dimensions of my room. The layout does not show but the ceiling is angled - tapering down at the back of the room.

Here's the left front of the room. The small bass trap you see in the corner is a small custom sized Monster Bass Trap 24inches by 18inch. Not large enough to be extremely helpful but every little bit helps. GIK Monster Traps are 7.5 inches thick - really 6 inches thick with an extra 1.5 inch of space in the back for more LF absorption.

Here's the front right side of the room & another Monster Bass Trap 24in x 18in trap it that corner. Behind the left & right speakers are 244 Bass Traps.

This is the back of the room. Behind the curtains are two (2ft by 4ft each) full size Monster traps covering the very long/wide window. The pictures may not show it but the front of my room is about 8½ ft in height but it then tapers down to 7½ ft in height as you get toward the back of the room. Now here’s where I had to get a little creative. In the top corners (above each rear speaker is a 2ft by 2ft Monster Trap). Below each speaker, is a (2ft by 18inch Monster Trap). I could not go any bigger on the bottom Monster Traps as the end chairs, when reclined, would hit the bass traps. Not sure if the picture shows it well enough but most of the end recliners get a good amount of rear wall coverage from those monster traps when reclined. There are 242 acoustic panels on the side wall and ceiling. The panels on the ceiling have an extra air gap/space of 1 ¾inch between the panels and ceiling. There also a 242 acoustic panel on the back wall, right behind the center chair.



Some other notes: Bryan Pape at GIK did recommend that I cover the back window with Monster Traps which is something I would not have thought of. He also recommend bass Traps for behind the front speakers and that I cover as much of the corners I could with Monster Traps to help the overall response and help tame the peak at 50hz as well. He stated the Monster Traps was their most effective Bass trap they sold at the time of purchase. I could have went with something more flushed mounted that would have taken less space but chose a little more function over form. I think it came out OK/good. About the only thing Bryan did not recommend was the absorption on the ceiling for my room, his first choice would have been diffusion on my ceiling. I was not sure how this would change the sound from seat to seat, so I decided to experiment with absorption on the ceiling first. The room may be a tad too “dead” for some but suits my HT needs really well, especially since this is mainly used for movie watching 99% of the time and not so much for music. Even though the room is not ideally sized, nor sealed nor on a suspended floor and may have other issues that a dedicated purpose built HT space would not have, I'm very happy with the overall results of my little room.

Thanks Guys!

Mike,
You are correct in probably not wanting or needing any more treatments. I mean if guys like Jeff Meier and Craig John have been in your room tweaking things and they don’t recommend anymore treatments, then I would definitely take that advice. Also you are running SMS and Audyssey XT32 so your room must sound spectacular! I’ve tried to mess with Audyssey XT in my room and cant get it to sound the way I like so I opted for more treatments to treat problem areas and it’s worked out well for me.

Mike and FOH,
Here’s something you might find interesting.
I experimented with placement too and I can tell you that I found (in my room) that there can be a thing as too many treatments even for bass – well kinda. There’s one corner of my room that always had bass build up. It’s the one full solid corner in the back of the room behind the wife’s big recliner. There’s was some bass build up there on certain scenes of some movies no matter where the SubMersive was placed (near-field, mid wall or front of the room). Moving the SubMersive to the front of the room helped, adjusting bass levels and crossing everything to 80hz even the LFE channel helped also. Ultimately the problem was resolved with minor setting tweaks in the AVR and the current treatments layout but before I resolved the issue, one day while the wife was at work, I was experimenting with the traps. I decided to treat that entire corner with Monster traps and it sounded great. I had to arrange the 18inch by 24inch traps in a way where they were corner mounted but closer to the corner so they did not interfere with the wife’s recliner when it was in the reclined position. After testing out a few movies that day and I thought I resolved the issue because everything sounded great, there was no bass buildup and still great impact at my seat. I measured with the real traps disc and it did not show a difference in response but the bass build up was gone. After watching a few movies with the wife during the next week, I noticed that some movies lacked the impact that it previously had and to make matters worse, some bass scenes sounded a little muddled and the wife even stated that her chair did not feel as good as it did previously. I then read on somewhere on AVS that the human body is like a bass traps – absorbing energy. I began experimented again and ultimately found out that the corner covered in Monster traps sounds great when the wife is not sitting in her chair. When she sits in her chair, there too much absorption in that corner and things just sounds odd and feels weaker. Since I usually watch movies with my wife I removed the traps on the floor and ended up with the current placement where everything sounds much smoother, balanced - has no corner bass buildup and has good impact.

FOH,
Your comments and recommendations are always welcome!!! There’s actually some post I’ve read in the Audio Theory and Speaker sections of this forum where you gave advice to folks about treating the back wall and ceiling that got me to look at my room a little closer. So while your comments were not directed specifically at me in those posts, there helped push me to experiment more and treat those areas in my room. I think it improved the sound in my room. Later, I may buy a measuring tool and continue to play around and experiment in my room but for now, I’m really enjoying sitting back, watching movies and appreciating the overall sound.

Thx again,
Claude

Thanks Prepress!
I actually found a used one locally a month ago for very cheap on craigslist. Its very similar to the current one we have and was in great shape too. Long Story short, its now sitting in my office with some standards dvds waiting to be filled with blurays

About a week ago I figured I would give Audyssey XT another try in my room since I've added 2 small monster traps, ceiling treatments and rear wall treatment. It took a little work but the results have been very good or even better than without Audyssey. I've always followed the Audyssey Guide steps and never could quite get it to sound right. The last time I ran Audyssey was before some of the traps/treatments I mentioned above and the response from 20hz to 40hz was down 5-6db - other times it made my previous main speakers sound lifeless with no bass. I had some similar issues this time too but was able to resolve - more on that later. I ran Audyssey following the Guide as I always have: staying outside the room during measurements/chirps, mic placements, ensuring fans/Hvacs are off, etc etc.

When finished Audyssey crossed all the JTRS up front at 70hz and my rear dipoles to 60hz. I moved them up to 80hz, the LFE channel was set at 80hz by Audyssey and I left it there. The distance measurements were spot on. Audyssey set the trim levels of the JTRs at -12, the rear dipoles were at -3 and + 1 and the Sub at -10. I should note that the SubMersive was previously EQ'd by Anti-Mode and the level was set at 75db at reference prior to running Audyssey.

I then engaged THX Cinema mode which is what Chris from Audyssey recommends using with the Onkyo 805 and Audyssey XT for movie listening. I popped in X-Men First Class to see if I can hear a difference. The difference was subtle in some areas better in others but all was an improvement - almost all. Dialog seemed to be even clearer, sound panning across the room seemed slightly more fluid. Highs seemed to sizzle more but in good way as it was more pronounced yet not ear fatiguing. Midrange seemed improved - a tad smoother or more natural to my ears. Now for the Bass.The bass was GONE!! And I don't mean Gone in the sense that You aint used to reference bass gone but more like "who the hell turned off the SubMersive?!" gone. I then pulled out my SPL meter to check the levels using the receiver internal test tones. The SPL meter was set to C-weighted and slow. All channels matched up perfectly. WTF?! This cant be right! I can see not having enough bass but this was literally like having the sub off or barely operational. I mean my local Non IMAX Movie Theater has way better bass levels than this and that system sounds weak. My local IMAX, on the other hand, sounds great for in the bass department.

I decided to pull out my Real Traps test disc to check out the frequency response. The Real Trap test disc does Hz in 1hz increments from 10hz to about 250hz. The Real Trap test disc revealed that my uncorrected response from 18hz to 78hz was +/-3db. By the time I hit 78Hz, the db started to rise. From 80hz to 110hz the response was 7db more than the response below 78hz. I started spot checking 120hz, 130hz, and above and there were all about 6-8db higher than the response below 78hz. I then decided to pop in the 5.1 Audio ToolKit that came with my SubMersive. Those of you who have this disc know that as it starts up, there's music that plays and it has a bass line to it that's sounds clean. As soon as I put this DVD in, I noticed everything sounded a tad cleaner/clearer and a little more spacious but the bass was not there either. I went through the first couple of tracks on the disc in Dolby Digital mode and the all the main channels matched up perfectly but this ToolKit indicated that the .1 channel or LFE was 7-8db down then the rest of the channels. I went back into the receiver to double check the internal tones and the receiver once again stated I was matched all the way across on all channels. Went back again to the 5.1 Audio Tool kit and it indicated down 7-8dbs for the Sub. I decided to raise the SubMersive volume dial up 3 clicks and raise the Sub trim level in the AVR to from -10 to -7. I can finally hear the bass but it still a bit quieter than what I like. I then raise the SubMersive dial up another click, set the sub trim to -6 everything is now flat according to the SPL Meter and Audio ToolKit. The music on the Toolkit sounds great very balanced, but maybe just a tad less bass then what I prefer so I raise the Sub AVR Trim from -6 to -4.5. Now it shows the Sub as being ~2dbs hotter than the other channels and sounds much better to my ears. Next I engaged THX Cinema mode and noticed that it adds another db to the bass while removing a db or two from the surrounds. This was all verified via SPL meter and Toolkit dvd.


We then watched a movie and I noticed an overall improvement. The bass seems a tad bit tighter sounding with Audyssey XT and Anti-mode then with just Anti-mode. I triple checked everything again and the Audio ToolKit shows 2db hot on the bass, Real Traps test disc shows it fairly flat response maybe a db or 2 hot for bass and the Receiver internal test tone indicate I am now 9-10dbs hot Who's to say which one is right or wrong. Some searches I've done on the Audyssey thread indicate the receiver test tones along with what Audyssey did is accurate. I then searched the SubMersive thread and found a post where Mark Seaton states "I often find the values I get with the DVD differ from what I get with internal test tones, and I always trust the DVD over the pre-pro/receiver." What's important is my ear prefers it this way and I would be willing to bet most that like a flat response would only want to back down the bass by 2 maybe 3db from where I currently have it.


We have since watched over 10 movies after the change and I can now say I am finally enjoying Audyssey XT. I can even watch a movie at quieter levels now and the dialog is still very clear not that it wasn't before but its even better now.

PS. I actually made notes the last time I ran Audyssey and it looks like there was the same discrepancy with the Receiver test tones vs the Audio Toolkit then too. I probably just never bothered paying that close of attention to it because the response back then was down 5-6db from 20hz to 40hz so I just gave up on it. Maybe all of this is a bug in my receiver than can be fixed with a firmware but I'm happy enough with my manual adjustments to just leave things as they are.

Thanks for the kind words Guys! It's very much Appreciated!

Its definitely been a learning experience even with my lame azz tools (SPL Meter and Test tones ) but still enjoying the end results.

Mike,
You lucked out and there are probably a ton folks, myself included, that would love to have Craig tweak their systems. Lucky for the rest us he's always sharing his knowledge/experiences on AVS and backing it up with graphs. I think a lot of his work and the work of some others here takes some of the guess work out of our process and leads us down the path to more audio bliss


Thx again,
Claude

Thanks for the kind words!
You have a pretty sweet setup there too! Great Job!

I hear ya about the Pioneer Kuro. I was/am pretty picky about my display. 5 years ago, I went through 3 TVs in a year before finally upgraded to (4th) 5080. The first set was not big enough, next had some ghosting effect and banding issue, the 3rd set I noticed false contouring and some other issues. I wish I could try a DLP but I always noticed the rainbow effect in those before I even knew that a "rainbow effect" term even existed. I find it amazing that almost 4 years later, there's not too much other than another Pioneer Kuro that can beat it for the same price I paid. I've heard a few great things about the "Elite" model that Sharp makes now but cant afford the $5500.00 price tag. I have a friend that I work with that stopped over a few times to check out my set up. I've told him a few times that its not a 1080P TV but it can accept a 1080P signal. Each time he comes here, he still says "Wow, look at the contrast and the detail!! I wish I had a 1080P Plasma like this!"

I actually have an 8g Kuro, the 5080. I sit 8 to 8.5ft away from it and I really enjoy it but sometimes the sound in my room is so big, it makes me want a bigger picture to go with that big sound

You are probably right Mike. I do like my TV and will probably stick with it for a while longer or until it breaks. It's tempting to think about upgrading to the new JVC Projectors after reading some of Craigs and Dennis' comments. I need to stop visiting Craig's thread (LOL!)

Thanks again Craig! You always post such useful and informative stuff! I think I'll keep my Kuro a little longer and I am definitely in agreement about too big of a screen statement!

I remember going to the IMAX in New York back in 2002-2003 to watch StarWars: Attack of the Clones. When the movie was finished I had that same exact feeling in my neck. I felt like a dog looking out the window trying to keep an eye cars going by. It was a great experience but either I sat too close to the screen or the screen was a tad to big cuz you could not keep track of everything on the screen without moving your head/neck back and forth.

On another note...
I tried out another one of your little set up tid-bits and it’s been pretty sweet so far. I originally had my Submersive running about 2db hot after Audyssey according to the Audio Toolkit DVD and the results were great but I decided I would try the engaging DSP2 or the 15hz mode in the SubMersive. I backed off the sub trim in the AVR a ½ a db and then engaged the DSP2.

DSP1 had a response of +/-3db from 18hz to 80hz in my room.
DSP2 has a response of +/-3db from 13hz to 80hz (well kinda but not really).

To be fair there is a dip at 17hz that extend 2db outside this +/-3db window and 10hz to 12hz has another 2-4db dip. I am down an extra 2db at 10hz and down an extra 4db 12hz. I still think this is pretty great considering my small square-ish room, non sealed room and limited placement. These numbers are all uncorrected using my SPL meter in C weighted and slow.
I demoed a few bass movies on the first day such as (WOTW, HTTYD, Star Trek 09, Iron Man and Blackhawk down). DSP2 or the 15hz mode does deliver more of the “goods” in the 25hz and below area. I decided to leave it like that for a week and after about 8 full movies, I think I may prefer DSP2 (15hz mode) more than DSP1(19hz mode) now.

I don’t know what Audyssey did but engaging DSP2 in the SubMersive after Audyssey and Antimode, (in my room), does make for a smoother sound vs just engaging DSP2 with Antimode alone and no Audyssey. This could all be in my head but whatever, I like it



I agree with you there again Mike and that’s the problem. If someone like Craig, with his setup and previous setup, is blown away by the performance in those projectors, how can we not help but be intrigued?! I'll keep my Kuro but if he or Dennis decides to post a pic of those JVCs in action, I may just freak out over here

So………Prior to Audyssey my system calibrated to 75db with the SubMersive set to PGM1 (19hz) mode and running about 2-3db hot after running Anti-mode.

We would usually listen to a movie at -10 to -15db from reference. It sounded great and plenty loud enough for us. After running Audyssey, I moved all the crossover settings up to 80hz, and only changed the Sub trim in the AVR and SubMersive dial to get the bass levels I wanted (~2db hot). A week or so later, I backed up the sub trim down ½ a db and engaged PGM2 (15hz) in the SubMersive. This sounded even better. I did not change any of the of the levels for any of the main speakers. After the Audyssey calibration, all channels were showing that they were down 5dbs so when the Master Volume is at 0 (Reference), the RS SPL meter now registers at 70db instead of 75db. I decided to leave it there for a few reasons:

1. I’ve read conflicting posts in the Audyssey thread that state once you run Audyssey, there is a point where you can turn up the (MV) Master Volume dial and the numbers on the AVR increase but the sound or actual volume will not increase. The conflict comes as I’ve also read that some other folks will go in and change all of the channel levels to get everything to read 75db at reference after running Audyssey. I don’t know which one is correct.
2. Some say the Audyssey mic is more accurate than certain SPL meters.
3. As stated we usually listen -10 to -15 from reference to begin with so a loss in 5db at reference didn’t bother me one bit.

Anyways, I decided to leave well enough alone and we enjoyed the system like this for a few days. I should note that to get the same perceived volume as we previously had (-10 to -15) from reference , we would now play the system at the MV set to (-7 to -12) in the AVR. This sounded great, loud and clean!

(I’m gonna briefly pause here for a sec just to express/explain one of the reasons why my wife is great) When she has a rough day at work or is dealing with some friend/family issues, she usually says she wants to watch one of her favorites movies to escape reality. That’s good -but not the great part….The great part is that her favorite movies are not “chick flicks” she loves them too but her favorites consists of movies like “300, Star Trek 09, Incredible Hulk, any of the Transformers, Dark Knight, IronMan, Troy”, any Pixar flicks and etc . We own over 400 movies and rent movies via Netflix too but these are her "go-to flicks" to take her mind off of things and it works wonders. (told ya my wife was great… un-pause)

The wife has a rough day at work comes home and says “I want to watch Star Trek!”. About 2 minutes in, I decided to try something I’ve never had the "testicular fortitude" to try before and that’s to take the system full tilt to 0 for an entire movie. It was a hair raising but pleasant experience. I thought I understood and appreciated dynamics before but watching a movie at these levels had me flinching, dodging, ducking, like never before and pulled more emotions out of me while drawing me even more into the story. It was very loud, as loud as the local IMAX. At the end of the movie, the wife even commented on how great that sounded and the bass felt in her chair was unlike anything else she felt previously. My wife also understands about some this A/V stuff as she listens to me blab about it to her quite frequently. I told her that we just watched the movie at MV “0”. She smiled and looked at me in amazement and said “No way?!, Really?!....Cool!!!” For the next few weeks we continued to watch most of our movies at MV -7 to -12 but we have also watched almost a dozen movies at “0” MV. Movies like Terminator Salvation, Percy Jackson…Lightning Thief, HTTYD, Exorcism of Emily Rose, Star Trek, Real Steel and a few others at MV “0” brings a new level to excitement and awesomeness into our little living room/ht.

I know that there are many here that have capable gear, speakers, and dedicated or bigger treated rooms that can easily do this but, in my mind, I’m still floored that this can be achieved in such a small room. I guess this speaks volumes (pun intended) about Room Treatments, Dynamic Speakers, and EQ.