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My Humble HT/Living Room - Page 9

post #241 of 294
I use direct radiating JM Labs for my surrounds. I have not tried PLIIx though. Just some of the Neural ones. Like you though, one of my favorite modes is stereo with the sub. But since my speakers are full range, I also really like bypass mode. I am in those two the most. Unless it is a MC SACD or DVD-A. It's all good though. What ever gives the most enjoyment is the one that you should use. But it is fun trying different modes.
post #242 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

I tried the Neural THX 5.1 and PLIIx Music mode with a few music CDs.


I'm not sure if it's cuz I'm running dipoles as surrounds, of if it's the position of some of my rear corner treatments or what but Neural THX does not sound as crisp and detail as stereo sound. The voice is anchored more at the center channel but everything else (my preference) seems not as clear and or airy.


The PLIIx Music mode sounds better on my setup. It's more clear and it's more immersive than Neural THX 5.1.


Even with the PLIIx Music mode being more immersive, I still think I prefer 2 channel Stereo mode the most (with the SubMersive). It's the most cleanest, clearest, crisp sound in my room.


I'm starting to wonder how much my opinion would change if I had some direct radiating Triads for surrounds vs. Sapphire Dipoles
I guess I'll have to wait a while before I find out - no rush though as I am still thoroughly enjoying this setup.

I remember when Neural first came out! I believe the original intent of its design was to matrix the audio from over the air and satellite radio. With your [awesome] speakers, stereo might be the best way to go. Even with direct radiating surrounds, I find myself listening to CDs, FLAC files, and SACD's in Stereo w/ Subwoofer. It's funny though....a 1/2 decade ago, as an HT-only guy, I couldn't understand how people could sit and listen to only two channels in a world of sub-$200 multi-channel receivers. But then..I tried two-channel by accident, and this was my first experience with "The Phantom Center." After I learned how to listen (for placement of performers and instruments within the recording), two-channel was the only thing my ears wanted :-) But alas, 'tis a subjective journey that we all find ourselves on...

BTW, if you're looking to hear a great SACD, check out Handel's "The Messiah" performed by the Dunedin Consort. They provide such a nuanced, amazing reproduction of Handel's (some say greatest) work, and your gear would definitely put a smile on your face as your listen in.
post #243 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

I tried the Neural THX 5.1 and PLIIx Music mode with a few music CDs.


I'm not sure if it's cuz I'm running dipoles as surrounds, of if it's the position of some of my rear corner treatments or what but Neural THX does not sound as crisp and detail as stereo sound. The voice is anchored more at the center channel but everything else (my preference) seems not as clear and or airy.


The PLIIx Music mode sounds better on my setup. It's more clear and it's more immersive than Neural THX 5.1.


Even with the PLIIx Music mode being more immersive, I still think I prefer 2 channel Stereo mode the most (with the SubMersive). It's the most cleanest, clearest, crisp sound in my room.


I'm starting to wonder how much my opinion would change if I had some direct radiating Triads for surrounds vs. Sapphire Dipoles
I guess I'll have to wait a while before I find out - no rush though as I am still thoroughly enjoying this setup.

I know dipoles radiate out of phase, unlike bipoles (in phase), so that may have something to do with your results. It could have something to do with the way the recordings were mixed, also. Due to space and other practical considerations I am a 2-channel person myself, and have no complaints.
post #244 of 294
I'm pretty sure it's with how THX treats surround information. The de-correlation of the surrounds is probably what you're experiencing. With movies it's not as noticeable (and actually preferred depending on the room) but with music you're more aware of the soundscape. Combine that with your dipole speakers and yeah I'm pretty sure it's what you're noticing.
post #245 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

I'm pretty sure it's with how THX treats surround information. The de-correlation of the surrounds is probably what you're experiencing. With movies it's not as noticeable (and actually preferred depending on the room) but with music you're more aware of the soundscape. Combine that with your dipole speakers and yeah I'm pretty sure it's what you're noticing.

And since THX is built for movies, that's entirely possible.
post #246 of 294
Neural THX does not use any THX processing. Neural is licensed by THX, (or it was for a while), but it's a totally separate system.
http://www.thx.com/press-releases/adoption-of-neural-thx%C2%AE-surround-increases-among-major-consumer-electronics-manufacturers/
So the "THX" in "Neural THX 5.1" is just a name. There is no THX processing involved.

THX's rear surround decorrelation is only active with PLIIx if you purposely select it, and it's only applied to the rear surrounds. Claude is running a 5.1 system, and doesn't have rear surrounds. Therefore NO THX processing is in use when he selects PLIIx either.

Craig
post #247 of 294
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the comments guys! I really appreciate the kind words and the thoughts!

I do prefer 2 channel music on regular CDs so far. When I had my JTRs, I was never in a rush to change out the back Sapphire dipoles as I think they worked well enough and was an enjoyable experience for movies. I personally feel it’s critical to have the same 3 or 3 very similar speakers in the front but I’m not as critical when it comes to the rears matching the fronts. I thought these dipoles did well (for movies) with the original front Sapphire speakers and did well with the JTRs and are doing very well with the Triad Gold LCRs. There are somethings about these dipoles that I really like. They have a nice diffused sound that really adds to background ambience in movies and sometimes trick me into thinking I have back (6th) speaker right above and behind my head which adds to the left to right surround pans. I’ve been and am very happy with them for movies. It’s only my love for these front Triads that I would consider upgrading the rears when I can find a decent set of used direct radiating Triads but I’m in no rush.

Thanks to Craig, I was able to get my first taste of quadraphonic hi-rez music – Pink Floyd DSOTM. I’ll admit that I like 2 channel music when it comes to regular CDs but this disc, OH BOY!, this freggin disc left my jaw on the floor (dipoles and all). I remember telling him, it was so good; it was almost creepy and kinda like a religious experience. cool.gif

I played this same disc for my wife a few days ago and had her sit in my chair (sweet spot). I had it on “MultiCh” so it was only the 4 speakers and the Sub- no center channel. She listened to it for a few mins and I asked her if she could point out where she hears the sound effects, instruments, singer and etc. With confidence, she pointed to the center speaker and stated that the signers voice is coming from there (haha)! Then she started pointing to different speakers as she heard some effects. There was one point where she as waving her hand like she was lassoing something as she was following the sound in the room biggrin.gif After that, I told her to sit back, listen and enjoy while I finish grilling our dinner. Later when we sat down for dinner I asked her “So what did you think?”. She responded with “It was cool and I knew most of those songs already and really loved a few of them a lot”. I explained to her that the center channel was not on and she looked at me like she was somewhat puzzled (lol!). She had some other comments too but the one that really stood out to me was when she said this “There was one point where the music made me dizzy!” I then said “Dizzy? What do you mean dizzy?” She explained with “ I don’t remember which song it was but there was some wobbly type tone moving across the room that gave me a dizzy-vertigo type feeling!” eek.gif My wife is even less than an audiophile than me but she told me that she did hear most of these songs before on an LP on a very good system in her younger days but she said the surrounds adds a lot to it. She’s already asked for a second listening session of it!
Edited by Bunga99 - 7/7/12 at 4:19pm
post #248 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Neural THX does not use any THX processing. Neural is licensed by THX, (or it was for a while), but it's a totally separate system.
http://www.thx.com/press-releases/adoption-of-neural-thx%C2%AE-surround-increases-among-major-consumer-electronics-manufacturers/
So the "THX" in "Neural THX 5.1" is just a name. There is no THX processing involved.
THX's rear surround decorrelation is only active with PLIIx if you purposely select it, and it's only applied to the rear surrounds. Claude is running a 5.1 system, and doesn't have rear surrounds. Therefore NO THX processing is in use when he selects PLIIx either.
Craig

Huh, didn't realize it was just name only. That kinda sucks. Ah well, dipoles aren't the best for music anyway in my opinion.
post #249 of 294
Way back in the day, when I read Stereophile regularly, there was an article (early '90s) in which someone had put together a surround setup for a demonstration using only four Mirage M-3si speakers (two front, two rear). I remember the writer mentioned how good that sounded. The Mirages are bipolars, of course, and less room-dependent than conventional speakers, so that might have helped things; I wonder if dipoles would have done as well. I don't have the magazine anymore so I can't tell you how the amplification was set up for sure, perhaps monoblocks for the front pair and another pair or a stereo amp for the rear pair. I don't think you could get away with that setup in the typical home today.
Edited by prepress - 9/24/12 at 9:49am
post #250 of 294
Good stuff Claude. I am a two channel man myself, but I am starting to try out these other formats as well. I won't muck up your thread with my thoughts but I think I will try a few more. I liked what the plain NRL surround did even though I could not hear much info out of my surrounds. I can get good surround info from dedicated surround SACD's and the like but I may experiment with some of the other modes when I listen to regular CD's. I think I am evolving my listening habits and I am trying not to be so rigid. I am glad that your system really sounds so good to you. That's what it's all about.
Edited by MIkeDuke - 7/10/12 at 8:32am
post #251 of 294
Thread Starter 
Thanks for comments Mike and don’t ever think you are "mucking up" my thread. I always appreciate your thoughts and feedback! You may claim that you are not that technical but I find your feedback very valuable and, at the least, fun to read. cool.gifsmile.gif
post #252 of 294
OK. Like I said, I plan on experimenting with some of the other modes at some point. I think my speakers are matched well enough for me to do it justice. Enjoy those Triad speakers. I heard Craig's Plats and they sounded really good. I am sure your golds also sound really good in your room.
post #253 of 294
Good evening Claude. I want to take this opportunity to thank you for allowing me into your home while I was down in Jacksonville on business. It was great meeting you and having the time to talk all things HT while I was. there. Oh and of course being able to listen to your well put together HT/2channel system. I thought the overall sound was smooth with the bass, mids, and highs blending very well together and I attribute that to your well placed sound treaments. You now have me thinking of starting down that road in my room. The SubM was setup very well with the bass appearing to come from the center of the front stage. I still think that if there is anyway to move the L/R speakers father apart you would end up with a much wider, better sounding frontstage. I hope that you will take me up on my offer and come see me and the wife and maybe do some sightseeing in and around the Atlanta area. Once again thank you very much for your great hospitality....except, of course, for that Bud Select 55 beer. tongue.gif That stuff is almost like water. biggrin.gif
post #254 of 294
Thread Starter 
Hey Al,

Thanks for the kinds words but the pleasure was all mine!biggrin.gif It was awesome to finally meet you and have to listen, provide some helpful feedback/tips on how to improve my setup and just talk about HT and family stuff in general. It was great to meet someone that was down to earth, yet as knowledgeable and cool as you are! If I ever do swap the room around I should have the room to push the speakers further apart - right now, in its currently location, the door and the light switches are kinda in the way (unless I get those light switches moved).

Your valuable and much appreciated feedback has made me experiment more with sub placement. After you left, I moved the SubM from the right front of the room to the left front. The weird thing is even without EQ, the left front had a more smoother response (did not excide room modes) but no matter what I did, I could still localize the sub there. I tried playing with the distance settings, level settings and crossovers but no luck. I decided to move the SubM back to the original right front location and re-run Anti-mode and then Audyssey. This time Audyssey had slightly smoother response than it did previously in this same location. I was able to experiment a little with running the SubM a few dbs hotter without any ill effects. When you were here, I believe the SubM was about either flat or 1db hotter than the mains according to the Audio Tool kit that's included with the SubMersive. As of yesterday, (it's still in PGM1- 19hz) but about 2-3dbs hotter than what you heard and so far I cant localize it but I only tested it out on 2 full length movies and then 2 more demos so more testing is probably needed but initial results feels better. No matter what location (Midwall, Left Front or Right front) or distance settings, I always seem to have a dip around 64hz to 72hz (down about 4-6db) compared to the rest of the response so I am sure I am losing some chest thumping bass in that region. I think this may be related to the room dimensions but overall I was happy with the way it sounded before and even more happy now. So thanks for your help - if you were not such a bass head and did not comment on me needing some more umpf, I would have left things alone so trust me when I say I value your input!! One thing I completely forgot to mention to you when you were here is - I seen/read some folks will run Audyssey and blindly trust it. Can you believe what you heard at my house was with me increasing the bass by 6db compared to what Audyssey had it set too? I had to increase it 6db after running Audyssey to get it measure flat with the mains when using the Audio Tool Kit and even with that 6db increase, but measuring flat, you said it could use more umpf. cool.gif

If I ever plan to be in the Atlanta area for any reason, you will definitely be the first to know smile.gif and I truly appreciate the offer.

I blame the Selects "Agua" 55 on the wife. When she was at the store I asked her to pick us up some Bud Light or Bud Selects and she came back with Budweiser equivalent of Poland Springs!redface.gif

Claude
Edited by Bunga99 - 9/24/12 at 11:44am
post #255 of 294
The pleasure was all mine Claude. Yes you are right that sometimes you need to change the settings after Audyssey runs to make the audio sound best to your ears. I have done that before when I have done setups for clients, I'd rather they be happy with the sound then what Audyssey sets. I would rather have preference then reference.
post #256 of 294
Good stuff Claude. Glad to see that the system is making you biggrin.gif from ear to ear. It should. You have quite a nice setup.
post #257 of 294
Thread Starter 
Thanks Mike!

It’s always great to have someone with more experience help and critique your system. Al aka Hometheatergeek has a lot of experience helping others with their systems and has a killer set up himself. I thought my system sounded good before but with a fresh run of Anti-Mode and Audyssey and a few more dbs of bass (still in PGM1), some bass movies woke up nicely. I still think I prefer running flat for music though. Al was a little surprised to see how small my room actually was. The first words out of his mouth was “It actually looks bigger on the pictures you posted” smile.gif The room is 12.5’ by 11.5’.
post #258 of 294
Just like me and Craig, Once I started talking with him and he came over, it was on smile.gif. Let's see, what can I "blame" on him. Oh I know. Changing my Halo to the Integra 80.2. Changing my Esoteric DV50s to the OPPO 83. I kid of course. Craig has been great. He has setup my system more than once. He changed out my amps for my SubMersive. He setup the Crowson on my one chair, Yea, it's good to have someone who knows there stuff to help out when needed. BTW, I think I am in PRG 2, not 1. In his thread he mentioned that he probably set it up that way and I did not change anything so I may be in PRG2. I am not going to try and check though, Whatever it is in, it sounds great. My room is 12.5' by 9.5' so he really would have been surprised by my room eek.gif.
post #259 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

Thanks Mike!
It’s always great to have someone with more experience help and critique your system. Al aka Hometheatergeek has a lot of experience helping others with their systems and has a killer set up himself. I thought my system sounded good before but with a fresh run of Anti-Mode and Audyssey and a few more dbs of bass (still in PGM1), some bass movies woke up nicely. I still think I prefer running flat for music though. Al was a little surprised to see how small my room actually was. The first words out of his mouth was “It actually looks bigger on the pictures you posted” smile.gif The room is 12.5’ by 11.5’.

They always look bigger in the photos. smile.gif
post #260 of 294
Happy New Years Claude. Here's hoping 2013 is the best year e'vah.

@ prepress thank you very much for the kind words.
post #261 of 294
Happy New Year, make it a great one! Need more pics! tongue.gif
post #262 of 294
Thread Starter 
MikeDuke, CraigJohn & BrolicBeast...This is directed at you 3:
LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01
eek.gifbiggrin.gif
I thought I was done with upgrades for a while but based on all your positive feedback on the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators, I decided to try them out. I ordered 2: one for my recliner and one for my wife’s recliner.
I should have them in a few weeks and will post my feedback once I have them dialed in and spend some quality time with them. I plan to hook them up exactly how Craig has his hooked up (via the Oppo) for an un-eqed LFE signal. Thanks again for all the great feedback/advice!!smile.gif
post #263 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

MikeDuke, CraigJohn & BrolicBeast...This is directed at you 3:
LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01
eek.gifbiggrin.gif
I thought I was done with upgrades for a while but based on all your positive feedback on the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators, I decided to try them out. I ordered 2: one for my recliner and one for my wife’s recliner.
I should have them in a few weeks and will post my feedback once I have them dialed in and spend some quality time with them. I plan to hook them up exactly how Craig has his hooked up (via the Oppo) for an un-eqed LFE signal. Thanks again for all the great feedback/advice!!smile.gif

Yessss!!!!! Succumb to the power of the rumble!!!!! lol.....I'm happy to hear that you have joined Team Crowson! I look forward to hearing your impressions. The actuator and the Submersive are a match made in heaven!
post #264 of 294
Did you ever get that thing I sent you working?
post #265 of 294
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Yessss!!!!! Succumb to the power of the rumble!!!!! lol.....I'm happy to hear that you have joined Team Crowson! I look forward to hearing your impressions. The actuator and the Submersive are a match made in heaven!

LOL! Yes, I am very interested to see how the Crowsons will perform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Did you ever get that thing I sent you working?

Hey Derek,

I do still have the Aura bass shaker you sent me a while back but never bought an amp to test it out. When I flipped my recliner upside down to see how I would install the Aura, it seemed I would have to modify the chair quite bit to attach the Aura to the chair so I never bothered getting am amp and trying it out. The Crowson is easier to install and requires less modifications to the chair. I've also read some good things about the Aura and Buttkickers but read that the Crowson is on another level in terms of realism/performance. Who know's, maybe once I get the Crowson's dialed in, I may try to install the Aura on the 3rd recliner in our room and see how it compares to the Crowson. One of great things about the Crowson is that is has a 30day risk free trial offer so if I find it unnatural or dont like it for any reason, I can return it.

Here's something I found from the FAQ on the Crowson that I found interesting:
Quote:
Many people, even some industry "experts" use the terms "shakers" and "tactile transducers" interchangeably, which is not technically correct.

A "shaker" can be a "tactile transducer," but not all "tactile transducers" are "shakers." Crowson TES-100 is a tactile transducer, but does not employ an "inertial-shaking" like any device which bolts onto the internal frame of a chair.

Crowson drivers are true Linear Actuators, not "shakers." They physically lift the seating (in the vertical plane), directly transferring motion at the points that were designed to bear the weight of the furniture.

The result is an incredibly realistic ("fast") motion rather than what can be a distracting, "one-note rumble" (shakers).

Crowson patented technology, Linear-Direct-Drive (LDD TM), delivers an audiophile-grade motion, with a linear, flat frequency response that exceeds even the finest loudspeakers (though it is not designed as a subwoofer replacement).

Imagine attempting to use a siren as a full-range home theater loudspeaker. Sirens are very efficient at a narrow band of frequencies, but terribly inefficient and inaccurate at other frequencies.

Inertial "shakers" can add an interesting, vigorous effect for similarly narrow frequency ranges (different "shakers" are optimized for different narrow frequency ranges), but are severely limited in their overall accuracy due to similar technical constraints.
Crowson TES-100 Linear Actuators are not simple "shakers" and should not be refered to as such.


Thx,
Claude
post #266 of 294
Yes. Hooked another one biggrin.gif. I can't wait to read about your thoughts once you get them connected.
post #267 of 294
Thread Starter 
hahah! Yes you did Mike, yes you did! biggrin.gif It might be a little bit till I get them because when I talked with Randy Crowson he said he was a little behind so it might be a week or so before he can send mine out.
post #268 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

MikeDuke, CraigJohn & BrolicBeast...This is directed at you 3:
LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01
eek.gifbiggrin.gif
I thought I was done with upgrades for a while but based on all your positive feedback on the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators, I decided to try them out. I ordered 2: one for my recliner and one for my wife’s recliner.
I should have them in a few weeks and will post my feedback once I have them dialed in and spend some quality time with them. I plan to hook them up exactly how Craig has his hooked up (via the Oppo) for an un-eqed LFE signal. Thanks again for all the great feedback/advice!!smile.gif

Awesome Claude!!! I anxiously await your impressions. Please post them in the "Official" thread as well:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450832/the-official-crowson-tactile-motion-actuators-thread

Welcome to the club! smile.gif

Craig
post #269 of 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

LOL! Yes, I am very interested to see how the Crowsons will perform.

Here's something I found from the FAQ on the Crowson that I found interesting:
Thx,
Claude

I have re-posted the excerpt from the FAQ in the "official" thread. Thanks Claude! smile.gif

Craig
post #270 of 294
Thread Starter 
Thanks Craig! I was about to PM you last night about adding the FAQ to the main Crowson thread here on AVS smile.gif
I'm already very excited about it that I went to my local Guitar Center this morning and ordered a new Buttkicker amp and was able to get it at a discount too and should have that in a week or so.
I know the Inuke 1000 DSP amp has more features but I read that the fan can get loud with the Inuke. I would have the amp in the same room as my other other gear so I think I would hear the fan noise. The fan noise used to bug me a bit with my old PS3. I figured if the Buttkicker amp is good enough for you and Mike, its more than good enough for me. biggrin.gif
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