or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Displays › Crosstalk with LCD Shutter Glasses - Are you seeing it?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Crosstalk with LCD Shutter Glasses - Are you seeing it? - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kothoga View Post

I saw it on the Samsung demo at Best Buy. The sales guys all thought I was wrong but it was painfully obvious to me.

It's easy enough to point it out in Monsters vs Aliens. Just go to the Golden Gate Bridge scene and pause it on a shot that has the suspension cables. The ghost images on either side of each cable should be unmistakable. Some of the Best Buy reps don't see it until I point it out, but after I do, I see the light bulb go off over their heads. Then it's the "How did I miss that?" expression. Case closed.
post #32 of 52
I finally got to see the Samsung demo today. I looked for and saw the ghosting, which was at its worst during the bridge scene. I asked the salesperson about it and he confirmed it. I was told that the Samsung rep adjusted the glasses somewhat to lessen the "ghosting" from what it was (really bad) when the glasses were first set up and synced with the T.V. So it seems (if this is the truth) that the glasses can be fine tuned to lessen, if not get rid of the "ghosting" entirely.

The "ghosting" I saw was minor and only noticeable in a few scenes. I was really impressed with the 3D image - lots of depth, retention of good colour, very bright high resolution image with good motion. I had the salesperson put on Ratatouille and convert it to 3D. I wasn't impressed, but tried again with Blackhawk Down. This was impressive - very good depth that reminded me of Avatar! Overall I thought the presentation with 3D material (although limited) was better than 3D in the theatre (I've seen Polar Express, Beorwulf and Avatar in IMAX 3D) so this is no gimmick, IMO! When I was watching the 2D to 3D conversion I thought my eyes were straining so this may not be for me - no problem with the 3D material. Maybe I'll be somewhat limited by what I can watch. All in all I can see people happily buying these sets. Avatar is being released on April 22 and the manufacturers need to pay the studio to change its mind and release it in 3D - that will drive sales of 3D T.V.s in a big, big way.
post #33 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I finally got to see the Samsung demo today. I looked for and saw the ghosting, which was at its worst during the bridge scene. I asked the salesperson about it and he confirmed it. I was told that the Samsung rep adjusted the glasses somewhat to lessen the "ghosting" from what it was (really bad) when the glasses were first set up and synced with the T.V. So it seems (if this is the truth) that the glasses can be fine tuned to lessen, if not get rid of the "ghosting" entirely.

The "ghosting" I saw was minor and only noticeable in a few scenes. I was really impressed with the 3D image - lots of depth, retention of good colour, very bright high resolution image with good motion. I had the salesperson put on Ratatouille and convert it to 3D. I wasn't impressed, but tried again with Blackhawk Down. This was impressive - very good depth that reminded me of Avatar! Overall I thought the presentation with 3D material (although limited) was better than 3D in the theatre (I've seen Polar Express, Beorwulf and Avatar in IMAX 3D) so this is no gimmick, IMO! When I was watching the 2D to 3D conversion I thought my eyes were straining so this may not be for me - no problem with the 3D material. Maybe I'll be somewhat limited by what I can watch. All in all I can see people happily buying these sets. Avatar is being released on April 22 and the manufacturers need to pay the studio to change its mind and release it in 3D - that will drive sales of 3D T.V.s in a big, big way.

I think the ghosting can be reduced. At one of the Best Buys where I saw the Samsung demo, crosstalk was significantly less than it was at other stores. It's still a deal breaker for me, even at its best.

The problem with the Samsung demo, though, is that the only thing you can see in true 3D is Monsters vs Aliens. Animation is not a good subject matter on which to base a buying decision. Animation tends to look good on just about any type of display. I'd like to see some real world 3D on the Samsung, but there's nothing out there. I haven't tried it, but I've read the Panasonic demo disc won't work on the Samsung Blu-ray player. Don't know why, but it could be a burned disc. I'd like to think that any regularly pressed 3D disc will play in any player, but that's a test that will have to wait. (I doubt I'd be able to convince them to take the Panasonic 3D Blu-ray player over to the Samsung 7000 LCD display. ) I do know that Monsters vs Aliens does play just fine in the Panasonic 3D player.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I finally got to see the Samsung demo today. I looked for and saw the ghosting, which was at its worst during the bridge scene. I asked the salesperson about it and he confirmed it. I was told that the Samsung rep adjusted the glasses somewhat to lessen the "ghosting" from what it was (really bad) when the glasses were first set up and synced with the T.V. So it seems (if this is the truth) that the glasses can be fine tuned to lessen, if not get rid of the "ghosting" entirely.

I would be very surprised to find this is the case. It would indicate to me an inferior system design.
post #35 of 52
I can pause the movie; Close one eye and the ghost is gone, close the other eye and the ghost is there.

Other times; I can pause the movie; Close one eye and the ghost is there on one side, close the other eye and the ghost is there on the other side.
post #36 of 52
I saw the Samsung demo yesterday at my local BB. I was able to detect some ghosting in many scenes, and not just in the infamous "bridge" scene that everyone seems to be talking about.

However, IMHO the ghosting was very minor and was no worse than the ghosting I have witnessed in even the best theatrical polarized 3D. In double interlock 35mm, IMAX 3D, RealD, etc., I have always detected some degree of ghosting. It is not bothersome to me personally, and IMO just comes with the territory. I think it can be reduced, if not altogether eliminated, as the technology progresses, but even in it's present state it would not be a deal-breaker for me. I do, however, understand that others might be more sensitive to it, just as some are more sensitive other types video and film artifacts.

There was no Panasonic set for me to compare, but even if what I saw on the Samsung were as good as it gets, I would be more than happy.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post

I saw the Samsung demo yesterday at my local BB. I was able to detect some ghosting in many scenes, and not just in the infamous "bridge" scene that everyone seems to be talking about.

However, IMHO the ghosting was very minor and was no worse than the ghosting I have witnessed in even the best theatrical polarized 3D. In double interlock 35mm, IMAX 3D, RealD, etc., I have always detected some degree of ghosting. It is not bothersome to me personally, and IMO just comes with the territory. I think it can be reduced, if not altogether eliminated, as the technology progresses, but even in it's present state it would not be a deal-breaker for me. I do, however, understand that others might be more sensitive to it, just as some are more sensitive other types video and film artifacts.

There was no Panasonic set for me to compare, but even if what I saw on the Samsung were as good as it gets, I would be more than happy.

Those are my thoughts as well. The image I saw had great depth and some scenes had things (ray gun) pop out and appear right in front of you - not very realistic, but kinda neat nevertheless (would put a smile on your face).

The 2D to 3D conversion was really interesting. It was terrible on material that already had a lot of depth (animation like Ratatouille), but looked quite good on live action material such as Black Hawk Down - which really surprised me. It doesn't provide any of the pop out imagery, but gives a very real added dimension of depth.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by deja vu View Post

i finally got to see the samsung demo today. I looked for and saw the ghosting, which was at its worst during the bridge scene. I asked the salesperson about it and he confirmed it. I was told that the samsung rep adjusted the glasses somewhat to lessen the "ghosting" from what it was (really bad) when the glasses were first set up and synced with the t.v. So it seems (if this is the truth) that the glasses can be fine tuned to lessen, if not get rid of the "ghosting" entirely.

The "ghosting" i saw was minor and only noticeable in a few scenes. I was really impressed with the 3d image - lots of depth, retention of good colour, very bright high resolution image with good motion. I had the salesperson put on ratatouille and convert it to 3d. I wasn't impressed, but tried again with blackhawk down. This was impressive - very good depth that reminded me of avatar! Overall i thought the presentation with 3d material (although limited) was better than 3d in the theatre (i've seen polar express, beorwulf and avatar in imax 3d) so this is no gimmick, imo! When i was watching the 2d to 3d conversion i thought my eyes were straining so this may not be for me - no problem with the 3d material. Maybe i'll be somewhat limited by what i can watch. All in all i can see people happily buying these sets. avatar is being released on april 22 and the manufacturers need to pay the studio to change its mind and release it in 3d - that will drive sales of 3d t.v.s in a big, big way.

+1
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesn View Post

i saw the samsung demo yesterday at my local bb. I was able to detect some ghosting in many scenes, and not just in the infamous "bridge" scene that everyone seems to be talking about.

However, imho the ghosting was very minor and was no worse than the ghosting i have witnessed in even the best theatrical polarized 3d. In double interlock 35mm, imax 3d, reald, etc., i have always detected some degree of ghosting. It is not bothersome to me personally, and imo just comes with the territory. I think it can be reduced, if not altogether eliminated, as the technology progresses, but even in it's present state it would not be a deal-breaker for me. I do, however, understand that others might be more sensitive to it, just as some are more sensitive other types video and film artifacts.

There was no panasonic set for me to compare, but even if what i saw on the samsung were as good as it gets, i would be more than happy.

+10
post #40 of 52
You can see some photographic evidence of crosstalk in the link below. The Panasonic TC-P50VT20 was not quite as bad as the Samsung C7000, but they both have their issues.

http://gizmodo.com/5501900/the-best-...nic-tc+p50vt20
post #41 of 52
Thread Starter 
Yes, I did see some crosstalk with the Panasonic, too. It was only during certain scenes, with certain picture settings, and it was rarely noticeable. The Samsung, in every demo I saw, had serious crosstalk issues. In the scenes where the crosstalk is most obvious with the Samsung, I see none on the Panasonic. It might be the glasses. When different glasses become available, we'll be able to compare. It might be a firmware issue. Maybe the firmware update hasn't been applied to any of the 5 Best Buy stores where I've seen the demo.
post #42 of 52
Here's a question for any electrical engineers out there: could the "quality" of the AC current provided to 3D televisions have any effect on the reliability of the sync signal being generated by the sets and driving the shutterglasses? Specifically: could voltage fluctuations or "dirty" power adversely effect the timing of the sync pulse, thereby causing ghosting?

If so, this could explain (in theory at least) why some are experiencing little or no ghosting and others are experiencing unacceptable levels of it. Furthermore, I wonder if a power conditioner, specifically one that performs voltage regulation (or better still voltage generation), would be effective in combating ghosting?
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

It's easy enough to point it out in Monsters vs Aliens. Just go to the Golden Gate Bridge scene and pause it on a shot that has the suspension cables. The ghost images on either side of each cable should be unmistakable. Some of the Best Buy reps don't see it until I point it out, but after I do, I see the light bulb go off over their heads. Then it's the "How did I miss that?" expression. Case closed.

I never really thought about it, but it seems a pause would be tough on the entire thing. I am just going to have to scrutinize it more perhaps.
post #44 of 52
There will be a new 3D ASG CEM (Bit Cauldron) in the maket this year (after June sometime). They will be using RF comm instead of IR. Here is what they cite as the benefits:

3D Synchronization using Radio Frequency Technology

•Resists line-of-sight interference
•Resists infra-red remote control interference
•Resists florescent light and sunlight interference

Patent Pending Synchronization technology

•Eliminate ghosting with multi-microsecond accuracy
•Adjustable duty cycle for multiple display types


See BUYERS GUIDE sticky, post #2 for URL
post #45 of 52
James,
If your power line was not tranmitting pefect 60 Cycle power your clocks would never keep time correctly. If you have a quick power flicker you the glases might get out of sync and closing the left eye shutter when they should be closiingthe right eye shutter.
Just a voltage variation should have no effect on the sync signal.
post #46 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

I never really thought about it, but it seems a pause would be tough on the entire thing. I am just going to have to scrutinize it more perhaps.

You don't even have to pause the movie to see the ghosting, if that's what you're saying. The bridge scene offers plenty of opportunity to see crosstalk, because they linger on the cables plenty long enough to see it.
post #47 of 52
You would think they would have got the crosstalk problem sorted BEFORE the tv's went on sale. Crosstalk is the only thing that is stopping me from buying a 3dtv.
post #48 of 52
Okay, so, I just purchased a new 46 inch Samsung LCD 3D TV. I've been having some trouble with the "ghosting/crosstalk" but also have had PLENTY of times where there was none at all. I really can't say what seems to be the problem, but it seems that after switching between both pairs of my glasses that it has something to do with the glasses themselves. I considered that maybe buying a pair of universal shutter glasses might be able to fix my problem.
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mankisman View Post

Okay, so, I just purchased a new 46 inch Samsung LCD 3D TV. I've been having some trouble with the "ghosting/crosstalk" but also have had PLENTY of times where there was none at all. I really can't say what seems to be the problem, but it seems that after switching between both pairs of my glasses that it has something to do with the glasses themselves. I considered that maybe buying a pair of universal shutter glasses might be able to fix my problem.

This subject has been tackled by many professionals. It's not the glasses, it's the technology. LCD is too slow, period. Plasma is much faster, as is DLP, thus less ghosting.
post #50 of 52
I don't think so.
I have the Sharp le925e. It has the Same terrible ghosting like the vt25.
The pana is still darker. So the crosstalk is harder to see. But it's there.
I think oled or laser tv could Be a Solution
in 2-3 years
post #51 of 52
For me crosstalk is the number one thing to avoid in 3D and i have seen it on the theaters also. At the moment i have H5360 projector and 3d vision and there is zero crosstalk and very bright image. So you can get bright crosstalk free 3d with shutter glasses. It is not perfect because of RBE and 720p but the best i have seen so far.
post #52 of 52
Quote:
It has the Same terrible ghosting like the vt25.

I have about twenty hours viewing 3D with both first and second generation Panasonic glasses. I have encountered very little ghosting, and only from live broadcast football. I did see a lot of ghosting when demoing TV's before I bought, mostly from LCD sets. Watching 3D from Blu-Ray on my 65VT25 I see zero ghosting, ymmv.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: 3D Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Displays › Crosstalk with LCD Shutter Glasses - Are you seeing it?