AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Displays › Panasonic Plasma 3D review. Count me out!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Panasonic Plasma 3D review. Count me out!

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
Not wanting to miss out on all the excitement, I decided to stop by Best Buy this morning and check out the Panasonic 3D demo. The tech guys were just finishing fixing it up as I arrived. It was in a dimly-lit area of the Magnolia HT dept. I stood about 8-10 feet away. I don't know which model I watched, but the screen size was about 50-54" with a 58" Samsung plasma right next to it for comparison. I excitedly donned the glasses, held down the power switch on the left side of the frame, and prepared

Initial impressions: I was not "wowed" right off the bat. Slightly headache-inducing. Dim, muted colors. Very much like watching Alice in Wonderland 3D in the theater (terrible film btw). When turning on the glasses, the picture became darker, colors got a little washed-out, and I had a smaller perception of the screen size. I also had difficulty focusing on the 3D images that were designed to pop way out. They were often blurry. It certainly was not natural, especially for my eyes.

Picture quality: Like I said, the picture became dimmer and colors weren't as vivid or accurate as a result. It's like watching TV with a very weak pair of sunglasses. If you're a PQ maven like I am, then you probably won't like it. Black levels were nothing special--they seemed only slightly darker than the Samsung next to it. Nothing approaching a Kuro, for sure.

Specifics: I watched a few clips of jugglers, flame spitters and other circus performers, a Grand Canyon demo, then the Astroboy trailer. The 3D was most impressive during the circus demo, more impressive than the grand canyon or Astroboy demos, which I found pretty lackluster to be honest. The juggler throwing pins in the air was actually very cool. Some of the 3D images were never quite in focus though. For example, when the fire-eater spit flame at you, it was just a blurry explosion of light. Weeds or trees in the foreground of a train sequence were blurry, while the train itself was crystal clear. Not fun for the eyes. Also, I had issues with some parts of the images being 3D, while others were not. For example, a tree in the foreground may jump out, but then you find yourself looking at the tree instead of focusing on the movie. A mountain peak may pop out in 3D, but the rest of the grand canyon looked like a fake 2D backdrop. I found it distracting.

Conclusion: I really had no expectations going in. I wanted to like it, but I unfortunately did not. Your eyes have to work SO MUCH harder. After 20 minutes, I had a slight headache and was feeling uncomfortable and claustrophobic. Add to the fact that I was getting a little nauseous during the 3D intensive moments, particularly when focusing on multiple 3D "layers". It wasn't regular nausea, but a gross feeling in the pit of my stomach that came and went. I cannot imagine watching a 2+ hour movie like this, enduring waves of nausea while going cross-eyed trying to focus on everything. For the record I don't get motion-sick easily, so this was unexpected.

As this is not so much a professional review than a collection of my thoughts and experiences, I encourage you to visit your local BB to try the demo for yourself. Make sure you watch it for 15 minutes to ensure that it doesn't make you ill. As for me, I was not impressed. Count me out of 3D.
post #2 of 30
No Mosters -vs- Aliens aye???? I thought it was better than the demo disc. I didn't notice any blurring on the demo though.

3D does require a slightly different viewing style. If your the type that scrutinizes backgroup objects and scenery I can see ti being not so good.
post #3 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by trem0lo View Post

... enduring waves of nausea while going cross-eyed trying to focus on everything.

Thanks for the great review. Reading it, I almost feel as though I was there.
post #4 of 30
So you seen 3d in the theater also???? Which looked better the theater 3d or the panny 3d???
post #5 of 30
Oh man thats a bummer. I have been lucky that I don't experience that feeling when I view 3d content. And I go hours at a time. If the effect makes you feel nauseated, I can imagine that it would not be very enjoyable. I experienced that sensation a little bit when I saw Avatar in 3d. The first 20 minutes or so I had a hard time focusing on the screen and I got dizzy. After that initial 20 or so minutes my eyes adjusted and I was good to go. I have had 3d in my home for a couple of months now and with a little tweaking and settings adjustments, the 3d effect looks very natural. Set up is key and will ultimately have a profound effect on the viewing experience. But everyone is different and will experience different things. Thank you for your review.

Cheers
post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Thanks for the great review. Reading it, I almost feel as though I was there.

I know like it was in 3D or something...
post #7 of 30
I just saw the Samsung demo. Count me in! It looked great - lots of depth, bright, good colour and motion. I saw a little "ghosting" which, according to the salesperson can be ameliorated by adjusting the glasses. I've see Polar Express, Beowulf and Avatar in IMAX 3D and the Samsung demo (limited as it was) looked better. Tried the 2D to 3D conversion - not good with some material and very impressive with other material. IMO the manufacturers will sell a lot of these sets if they can get some content out there. Wow, the manufacturers hit it out of the park with the 1st pitch!
post #8 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Wow, the manufacturers hit it out of the park with the 1st pitch!

Ya got that right. All the reports I've read about motion blur (I made one myself) and other "problems" are likely due to improper set ups. The first time I viewed a Samsung C7000 I told myself to short the Korean stock market. A few days later I came back and they had the TV and/or BD player or HDMI cable correct and the view was stunning. I also checked out the Panasonic VT20 and came away with the same impression. Nothing is perfect and they have their problems like flash lighting on LED LCD's and black loss on plasmas. So? It's the new technology and it isn't going away. I can remember Stereo Review Magazine reporting right after CD's were introduced to the world that LP's would never go away. Ummmmm, yeah, right.

I'll be buying something for sure but at least I'm patient enough to wait a few more months, read all the reports, and see as many displays as possible before handing over my credit card. 3D programming is the future so you might as well get ready for it.
post #9 of 30
I saw the Panasonic Demo at my Best Buy's Magnolia store and had a quite different reaction than the OP. The demo was very impressive -- better results than those you get at the theaters. The picture was bright, had good 3-D imaging, and motion handling was good as well. I saw a demo of a baseball game and a women's volleyball game (which was visually quite pleasing I might add). I can just imagine what this would be like with a football game and with the upcoming ESPN in 3D channel.

I watched for about 10 minutes, and my only concern was how prolonged use of glasses would be like. Otherwise, I was amazed at the level of 3-D quality that Panasonic was able to create with its generation 1 unit.
post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by trem0lo View Post

Not wanting to miss out on all the excitement, I decided to stop by Best Buy this morning and check out the Panasonic 3D demo. The tech guys were just finishing fixing it up as I arrived.

The part that I put in bold is what caught my eye about your review. I'm wondering if maybe they hadn't really had time to get the display setup properly. My understanding is that there are several adjustments that can be made to the 3D system that can affect how well it works, including screen size and depth.

I also think that some folks are more sensitive to an improperly setup 3D system, or maybe just 3D viewing in general.

In any case, it might be interesting to take another look the next you make into Best Buy to see if maybe they've had a chance to get it better calibrated.
post #11 of 30
The demos at Best Buy are all over the place. Some look great, and some look really bad. Every manufacterer should make sure that their demo is set up perfectly at each store. I've been to 4 or 5 different Best Buys and some have both the Samsung and the Panasonic looking fantastic, and some have the Samsung looking horrible. So far all of the Panasonic demos I've seen look great. The problem with the Samsung setup is that some Best Buys are demonstrating 3D by playing a 2D Blu-ray and using the converting feature. This sucks compared to real 3D. My closest Best Buy had Star Trek playing in 3D, and unsuspecting shoppers think that that's what the new 3D looks like. I'm guessing that even now some Best Buys are playing the MvA 3D Blu-ray in 2D and letting the TV do the converting--because the employees don't know any better.
post #12 of 30
The more I read people's posts on 3D the more I realise that there is a definite split down the middle. For those who are more interested in full HD, colour and brightness I guess it's a no-no.

I personally love 3D, at least when it's shot and displayed correctly. You forget that you are looking at a moving flat image and feel like you are actually in the scene with the characters or at least could step into it. For that immersive feeling, a feeling that draws me into each scene like 2D never can, I am willing to sacrifice that slight loss of colour and brightness.

Anyway, it's amazing what a bit of tweaking with your display settings can do.

So you either love 3D or hate it. I'm in the camp that loves it.

Gae
post #13 of 30
I have 3 kids, so I would have to get 5 pairs of glasses. Maybe more for guests. That means I would be spending over 4 grand for a setup. Plus, either the kids would find a way to break the glasses or they would be so scared of what I would do to them if they broke them, they would never want to wear them.

I'll consider 3D if my TV breaks. Otherwise i'll wait until I can get a working setup for under 2 grand.
post #14 of 30
I got to check out the Panasonic VT20 this morning my my local Best Buy's Magnolia section; I'm something of a 3D buff and have been following the buzz on the various sets being released and have had a chance to sample most of them. With regard to the Panny, all in all I came away disappointed. The TV was playing a looping demo BluRay which had some sightseeing videos of Rome, the grand canyon, juggling clowns, kittens and a preview for Astroboy.

The kitten section was positively diabetes inducing but since I didn't have access to a remote I couldn't skip it; decent detail and depth of field but nothing special. Likewise the canyon flybys also had decent 3D depth but lacked any visual pizazz.

The Rome and clown sections had the best 3D effect with good depth of field and the occasional item seeming to pop out of the screen. When the camera lingered on a still object however the imagery took on that "cardboard cutout" look you often get with 3D - it looked like a viewmaster slide at times if you get what I mean.

The Astroboy preview was very disappointing, easily the weakest part of the demo. I believe this was a 2D CGI movie that underwent 3D conversion and it showed. Scenes of characters standing still had moderate depth but whenever there were fast moving images, the sense of depth quickly faded and the image was often blurry. There was no 3D pop at all and I also noticed some crosstalk with this preview (which I didn't experience anywhere else during the demo).

Overall the color and black levels were fine and I didn't notice any flicker or stuttering other than with the Astroboy preview. After watching the material for about 10 minutes however I started to get a dull headache and my stomach actually got a little queasy. Several other posters have apparently experienced the same thing with Panny 3D demos. I'm usually pretty good at tolerating stuff like this; I've been to plenty of theatrical and Imax 3D presentations and the Samsung LED 3D TV didn't bother me so this was somewhat perplexing.

I noticed that much of the demo material involved moderately slow moving images, which my eyes were able to follow fairly well. Whenever the action ramped up however, as was the case in the Astroboy preview, the 3D effect was negligible and my eyes had trouble keeping up with what was happening on screen.

The 50" VT20 was selling for $2500 and comes with one pair of 3D glasses. Seeing as you can get a 54" Panny S1 for around $1100, that's a really high price to pay for the jump 3D, especially when there is so little native content and the Panny apparently doesn't have any on the fly 2D to 3D conversion support. Definitely not worth the investment, especially given the headaches and nausea.

These companies also need to put out some more compelling demo material; the Panasonic presentation was slow, bland and lackluster and, in the case of Astroboy, had very poor visuals.
post #15 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by LORDLICH View Post

So you seen 3d in the theater also???? Which looked better the theater 3d or the panny 3d???

Lets see which looks better... a $200.000 plus totally digital 3D Theater set up or a cheapo $2,500 Panasonic "3d" TV?

Totally ridiculous expectations; Some here on AVS are expecting 3d miracles from tin-can-string 3D. There is a $40,000 dollar 3D projector that is out that may just begin to replicate the theater 3D experience at home.... $40,000 DOLLARS! But the whole 3D tech for home applications is in it's prenatal stage at this point and I do not think there are too many "early adopters" here on AVS or anywhere else given the shambles Obama is making of the economy who are going to risk $40,000 on the off chance that MAYBE they got 3D right the first time out of the box. History has proven time and time again that the first generation, second generation and sometimes the third generation before then finally get those nasty, pesky "kinks" and "bugs" out. With 3D the learning curve before they even begin to get the tech right is a lot longer because of all of the variables involved.
post #16 of 30
I was in Best Buy yesterday and reviewed the same 2 TVs. I came away with Samsung being better. One of the main problems I had with the Panny, and it may sound stupid, was the glasses. The open section on the side of the glasses brought in to much light for my eyes. My peripheral vision with other tv's, ambient lights, and things were a distraction, especially with the glasses automatically doing some sort of dimming. Maybe it's only me.

My real question is associated with the verbiage I was getting from the BB people (more than one). When I asked about, which one they thought was better between the 2 sets, they use similarly the same words. They said that the Panny was better because of the 3D format it was using quoting that at the Panny 3D sequencing was like seeing "1080p in both eyes" and the Sammy was like seeing "540p in both eyes".

Is that true? Is that based upon the 3D transmission format or is that a testament for or against the whichever TV's capabilities?
post #17 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mkwillia View Post

I was in Best Buy yesterday and reviewed the same 2 TVs. I came away with Samsung being better. One of the main problems I had with the Panny, and it may sound stupid, was the glasses. The open section on the side of the glasses brought in to much light for my eyes. My peripheral vision with other tv's, ambient lights, and things were a distraction, especially with the glasses automatically doing some sort of dimming. Maybe it's only me.

My real question is associated with the verbiage I was getting from the BB people (more than one). When I asked about, which one they thought was better between the 2 sets, they use similarly the same words. They said that the Panny was better because of the 3D format it was using quoting that at the Panny 3D sequencing was like seeing "1080p in both eyes" and the Sammy was like seeing "540p in both eyes".

Is that true? Is that based upon the 3D transmission format or is that a testament for or against the whichever TV's capabilities?

Balderdash! Both the Panasonic and the Samsung displays at Best Buy provide full 1920x1080p images for each eye. Just another reason you can't take anything that a given Best Buy rep says at face value. Do your own research. Some BB reps are good, many are terrible. I had a store manager put in a 2D copy of Monsters vs Aliens, because he thought it was 3D.
post #18 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

Lets see which looks better... a $200.000 plus totally digital 3D Theater set up or a cheapo $2,500 Panasonic "3d" TV?

Totally ridiculous expectations; Some here on AVS are expecting 3d miracles from tin-can-string 3D. There is a $40,000 dollar 3D projector that is out that may just begin to replicate the theater 3D experience at home.... $40,000 DOLLARS! But the whole 3D tech for home applications is in it's prenatal stage at this point and I do not think there are too many "early adopters" here on AVS or anywhere else given the shambles Obama is making of the economy who are going to risk $40,000 on the off chance that MAYBE they got 3D right the first time out of the box. History has proven time and time again that the first generation, second generation and sometimes the third generation before then finally get those nasty, pesky "kinks" and "bugs" out. With 3D the learning curve before they even begin to get the tech right is a lot longer because of all of the variables involved.

Political comments, even if they're in a post, ostensibly, to support your ideas about 3D, are inappropriate. You might want to think about removing them before someone reports you and they are removed. Repeated offenses could subject you to formal reprimand by a mod. (For the record, and not that it matters, I've never reported anyone, even people guilty of worse offenses than yours. Understand, though, that provocative comments are frowned upon and invariably lead to unnecessary arguments.)

It's not unrealistic to expect that the home 3D experience will be capable of eclipsing the one in most commercial 3D theaters, which invariably cost a lot more than anything in the average home. Sure, early adopters can expect they'll experience more bugs and glitches than those who adopt later, but even right now, given what I've seen from the Panasonic plasma, its 3D looks better than what I saw in even the best Avatar 3D theater where I saw it (and I saw it in 3 different 3D theaters). When 3D front projectors become available (and not even the mega-expensive ones), I expect my home 3D experience to be better than 95% (or more) of commercial theaters. That's true of my viewing experiences in commercial 2D theaters, and I've been to most of them in my area.
post #19 of 30
I think 3D is a good two to three years out. The first problem is the glasses. I'm sure they will get to the point where they are not needed. Second is the amount and type of content. 3D lends itself to action and cartoons, but I don't think Hollywood is going to produce every movie in 3D. I see it as a niche market, at this time.
post #20 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Oblow View Post

I think 3D is a good two to three years out. The first problem is the glasses. I'm sure they will get to the point where they are not needed. Second is the amount and type of content. 3D lends itself to action and cartoons, but I don't think Hollywood is going to produce every movie in 3D. I see it as a niche market, at this time.

This year, as it stands today, they will release 25 new 3D films (plus one carry over from 2009 - Avatar). The average number of films released in a year is about 525. So as you can see - it's less than 5%.

3D's biggest problem today is the number of 3D screens. There were no new 3D films released between Jan. 1, 2010 and March 4th. Yet in March, there three 3D films that were released (1 being an IMAX 3D doc) so with only two 3D films, they are still fighting for screen time because the number of 3D screens is about 3000 in the USA. This will change this year. Should be more than 5000 by the end of 2010. And another 3D film gets released next week.

Of course Hollywood wants to max their profits and 3D films are the most profitable.

Keep in mind that 3D like HD is not confined to what Hollywood provides. Sports may be more appealing in 3D then movies.

Is 3D a niche? Of course it is. Was HD a niche back in 1999 and 2000? It sure was. 3D is getting a much better "birth delivery" than HD ever got.

The glasses? Asked and answered about 100 times already.
post #21 of 30
2010 is the year of 3D at home. Obviously, there's a dearth of programming (Blu-ray, satellite, cable, etc.), but even with their limitations (ghosting, screen size, whatever), these Samsung and Panasonic 3D sets have exceeded my expectations. Given how quickly things have rolled out, we're pretty far ahead of where I thought we'd be at this time. Based on this rate of progress, I expect the 3D landscape in three or four months to look far, far richer than it does today. I also expect 3D on the computer (home theater PCs) to experience some rapid growth. The possibilities are very exciting - 3D still photography, 3D Blu-ray, compatibility with legacy sets like the rear pro 3D DLPs. I can't wait for that whole side of 3D to start heating up. And unlike set top Blu-ray players, it looks like computer Blu-ray drives won't even require a firmware upgrade to read the data from a 3D Blu-ray disc.
post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Balderdash! Both the Panasonic and the Samsung displays at Best Buy provide full 1920x1080p images for each eye. Just another reason you can't take anything that a given Best Buy rep says at face value. Do your own research. Some BB reps are good, many are terrible. I had a store manager put in a 2D copy of Monsters vs Aliens, because he thought it was 3D.

Can you get a source for this. Since I have seen more than one Best Buy employee quote a handbook given to them by Samsung that states that they are not 1920X1080 both eyes. And these handbooks were given to all Magnolia people for Best Buy.
post #23 of 30
Full HD 3D means 1920x1080p per eye. Older Samsung sets (like their DLP rear projectors) used a half resolution format (960x1080) "wobulated" DLP chip.
post #24 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Full HD 3D means 1920x1080p per eye. Older Samsung sets (like their DLP rear projectors) used a half resolution format (960x1080) "wobulated" DLP chip.

Where on the surface I would agree that them saying full HD would mean that but it would not be the first time they, meaning CEs, would try and pulling a naming game on people. Since if you look at the Samsung site all is says is 3D ready nothing about resolution while in 3D. Panasonics site is no better.
But the question comes if they are 1920X1080 both eyes then why would they publish info for training that says otherwise?

I do not know if it is or not but would like a link that gives the info.
post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post

Where on the surface I would agree that them saying full HD would mean that but it would not be the first time they, meaning CEs, would try and pulling a naming game on people. Since if you look at the Samsung site all is says is 3D ready nothing about resolution while in 3D. Panasonics site is no better.
But the question comes if they are 1920X1080 both eyes then why would they publish info for training that says otherwise?

I do not know if it is or not but would like a link that gives the info.

Here is what a single frame packed frame from 3D BD will look like:



The 3D BD player sends 24 per second to the display which unpacks the frame into the individual L + R Full HD frames and shows them on the display in the frame sequential 3D format.




Without the glasses, the display looks like this - 2 FullHD frames overlapping:



Only 3D BD can provide FullHD per eye.
post #26 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Balderdash! Both the Panasonic and the Samsung displays at Best Buy provide full 1920x1080p images for each eye. Just another reason you can't take anything that a given Best Buy rep says at face value. Do your own research. Some BB reps are good, many are terrible. I had a store manager put in a 2D copy of Monsters vs Aliens, because he thought it was 3D.

Actually, the Samsung displays a full 1080p image on the screen, but it does it using alternating lines vs. panasonic's frame sequential. Alternating lines means that the left eye is on line 1, right eye line 2. The Samsung also jumps into a 3D mode that locks out all the settings, and adds severe edge enhancement to the image. As a Magnolia employee, I have spent almost 2 full weeks now 5-6 hours a day just playing a demoing both screens. Even according to the information packet Samsung sent us to help educate customers, the line sequencing means that 540 lines of resolution are being sent to each eye, and your brain puts it together as one 1080p image. The TV however, isn't displaying a 1080p image to each eye. It's refresh rate isn't fast enough for that. Panasonic shows you image 1, then image 2, back to back in full 1080p, then the glasses blink back and forth. That is why
the Panasonic can technically do 1080p to each eye, and you get a 1080p image when you view each eye.

To see what I am talking about, have the Best Buy salesman pause monsters vs. aliens on the Samsung. Even when it is paused it will retain the 3D effect. Close one eye in the 3D mode, and leave the other open, then ask your salesman to switch the TV back to the 2d mode with the disc paused, leaving the same eye open and the same eye closed the whole time. You will see a tremendous jump in resolution. And just so you know, we set the picture settings in the 3d mode and 2d mode to match at our store so it is a fair comparison. If it helps, simply look at the definition on Samsung's Blu-ray player info at the top left, when you jump from 3d to 2d there is an increse in the numbers alone. That should be evidence that there's a game afoot all on it's own. Be careful that the TV settings are approximately the same though, otherwise it's not a fair demo.
post #27 of 30
Are you saying that the Samsung is discarding half the resolution for each eye? So that the left eye only ever sees lines 1,3,5,7, etc., while the right eye only sees lines 2,4,6,8, etc.? That's not Full HD 3D. I don't notice severe edge enhancement on the Samsung display. Edges are clean and free of fringing in the demos I've seen. The specs claim that the refresh rate of the Samsung is 240hz. That's fast enough to display 120fps for each eye. I've never heard anything about even the 2D 240hz sets displaying only half resolution HD. None of this adds up.
post #28 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Are you saying that the Samsung is discarding half the resolution for each eye? So that the left eye only ever sees lines 1,3,5,7, etc., while the right eye only sees lines 2,4,6,8, etc.? That's not Full HD 3D. I don't notice severe edge enhancement on the Samsung display. Edges are clean and free of fringing in the demos I've seen. The specs claim that the refresh rate of the Samsung is 240hz. That's fast enough to display 120fps for each eye. I've never heard anything about even the 2D 240hz sets displaying only half resolution HD. None of this adds up.

He is probably confusing the the LCD Xpol passive glasses 3D tech that is popular in Japan and for Pro 3D production monitors (which does us the Line-by-Line 3D format) with the 3D LCDs elsewhere that like the Panasonic, use frame sequential with active shutter glasses 3D tech.
post #29 of 30
So the dimness thing sucks, I dont know about the panny but any chance cranking up the backlight and brightness on the samsung 3Dtvs might alleviate the problem?
post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post

So the dimness thing sucks, I dont know about the panny but any chance cranking up the backlight and brightness on the samsung 3Dtvs might alleviate the problem?

IMO, brightness is not a problem on either the Samsung or the Panasonic display. The sets compensate for 3D mode quite well. I think the Panasonic, especially, gives a bright image with ample contrast.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: 3D Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Displays › Panasonic Plasma 3D review. Count me out!