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Reed Exodus Anarchy 25hz Tapped Horn - Page 12

post #331 of 713
12/9/10 at 9:57am
pls keep me posted on your new thread . the speaker i intented to use was car subwoofer 12" jbl gt1200 i would have made the sims in horn resp but do'nt know how to use the program. if you say one fold is not enough how and what measurement should i use maybe 48"x48"x13" i would have used the one 4 diyaudio collaborative horn but it is too tall and takes lots of 4'x8' sheet its 75"x30"x13
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post #332 of 713
12/9/10 at 1:33pm
While it may be a great driver for a tapped horn, that is not an 8. As it is a 12, it won't fit inside an 11" wide box, either. Not gonna work.

Funny thing about speaker cabinets - one size does not fit all. As the complexity of the cabinet increases, the chances that things go wrong with a mis-matched driver installed get higher, and the more complex the cabinet, the worse it gets when it all goes wrong. As far as cabinet complexity goes, tapped horns are among the most complex cabinet I have worked with yet, and I'll be blunt - I am still on the steep part of the learning curve. I'm not trying to tell you that they are magic - they are not, the laws of physics still apply here.

I guess - if that's the driver you want to use, I'd refer you to the tapped horn tutorial I started a while back. There is a lot of great information in that thread, and it will serve to get you started. I do not own/have not measured that particular driver, and I don't think I have any simulations with it. If I did, any work would be with manufacturer-supplied parameters, which may or may not be reality.

As someone (think it was zilch) put it - you can build it however you want and use any driver you want, just don't call it my design when you are done.
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post #333 of 713
12/9/10 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

As the complexity of the cabinet increases, the chances that things go wrong with a mis-matched driver installed get higher, and the more complex the cabinet, the worse it gets when it all goes wrong..

To say nothing of driver-driver differences and batch-batch differences. The more critical the alignment, the more the consistency of the T/S parameters matter.....when you are squeezing all you can out of an alignment, very small differences in driver params make for large response changes.

JSS
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post #334 of 713
12/9/10 at 2:09pm
i meant 4 the 12"jbl gt (48"x34"x13")
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post #335 of 713
12/9/10 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

The more critical the alignment, the more the consistency of the T/S parameters matter.....when you are squeezing all you can out of an alignment, very small differences in driver params make for large response changes.

Indeed. One of the things I'm still struggling with is remembering all the little details when I work on a tapped horn design. You have to watch every little thing. I've drawn up whole designs and gotten excited about them only to realize that some little detail I missed torpedoes the whole thing.

The most common one I forget to check is the compression ratio and its effect on the driver diaphragm. I had one design with a car audio woofer that looked absolutely beautiful... until I realized the diaphragm likely wouldn't hold up in reality. And there was no way around it either - that woofer had to have a higher compression ratio. So much for that one.

And about reliable TS parameters... I won't even consider woofers anymore whose parameters might not come close to matching reality. Not for anything big, anyway. I don't have a way to measure them for myself, so I won't take the chance of building up something and finding out I just wasted my time and money. I don't have a lot of either these days
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post #336 of 713
12/9/10 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stewin View Post

i meant 4 the 12"jbl gt (48"x34"x13")

The point that lilmike is trying to make here is that you can not just increase the width of his design (or any design) and put a larger driver in it. If you want to use a 12" JBL GT1200 in a folded horn, you have to either
  1. find a horn already designed for that driver (or a driver with very similar parameters to the JBL), or
  2. design a horn for it and then fold that horn into shape.
Unless the diyaudio collaborative horn you mentioned was designed for your driver, you cannot just put the JBL driver into it and expect it to work.
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post #337 of 713
12/10/10 at 12:29pm
The point that lilmike is trying to make here is that you can not just increase the width of his design (or any design) and put a larger driver in it. If you want to use a 12" JBL GT1200 in a folded horn, you have to either
  1. find a horn already designed for that driver (or a driver with very similar parameters to the JBL), or
  2. design a horn for it and then fold that horn into shape.
Unless the diyaudio collaborative horn you mentioned was designed for your driver, you cannot just put the JBL driver into it and expect it to work.[/quote]

can you please do the sim 4 me in horn resp and please advice me on how to go about or how to fold stewin
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post #338 of 713
12/10/10 at 12:34pm
"can you please do the sim 4 me in horn resp and please advice me on how to go about or how to fold stewin"
What you are asking is for someone to design a car for you from the ground up. That is a lot to ask of someone without paying them What you might want to do is pick something that has already been designed.
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post #339 of 713
12/10/10 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stewin View Post

The point that lilmike is trying to make here is that you can not just increase the width of his design (or any design) and put a larger driver in it. If you want to use a 12" JBL GT1200 in a folded horn, you have to either
  1. find a horn already designed for that driver (or a driver with very similar parameters to the JBL), or
  2. design a horn for it and then fold that horn into shape.
Unless the diyaudio collaborative horn you mentioned was designed for your driver, you cannot just put the JBL driver into it and expect it to work.

can you please do the sim 4 me in horn resp and please advice me on how to go about or how to fold stewin

In a word, no.

This is the "Do It Yourself" section, not the "Do It For Me" section.

Nothing personal, and no offense meant. I started that tutorial thread I suggested for you earlier for cases just like this. I will share my map, I will show you the trail I took and the pitfalls I experienced, as well as explain how they might be avoided, but I will not climb your mountain for you.

Of all the designs I have done for people on and off-forum, this forum and others, (not calling anyone out ), only two of my designs have been built to date by people other than me. This is not my job. I spend hours of my free time on these things, it is not as if I can whip out a set of plans in five minutes. The last project I took on took me over 40 hours to simulate and fold, but it was quite complex and pushes the envelope a bit. He's making sawdust tomorrow.

These are not easy designs to get right, even though they look simple.

Sometimes simple isn't.
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post #340 of 713
12/10/10 at 2:26pm
wow just like drawing an amp schematic and laying it out on a board takes time . guyz sorry i thought it was just coping specs of a speaker and frequency you want to the program then it computes the length required .
anywayz what you guyzs said above is very true i've put different drivers on tapped horn and yes the bass lows were very clean but there is a lack of power in the 60 - 120hz . yes i k now above 100hz tapped horns have issues . but the ones i do with speakers apart from the specified tend to do well in some songs and notes esspecially low ones but a big problem in the high i.e not audible even if i boost the eq in 80,100hz
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post #341 of 713
12/11/10 at 11:33pm
how much for an anarchy?
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post #342 of 713
12/13/10 at 6:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

how much for an anarchy?

http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=538
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post #343 of 713
12/19/10 at 4:14am
I am looking at building one of these soon but was wondering wether the following tang band woofers would suit as these are the only ones i can source in the uk.

W6-1139SG
W6-1139SH

Any help would be mush apprecited.

Cheers,
Greg
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post #344 of 713
12/19/10 at 7:17am
I've seen worse sims that folks said performed well. Your call though:

GM
LL
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post #345 of 713
12/24/10 at 9:48am
these are very impressive. I just now saw this thread for the first time and I am very intrigued by it.

However, I do have a question....like everyone else...

this design uses a driver that was originally designed for use as a midrange driver....do these kinds of folded horns not work for the mids at all? I was thinking it would be nice to build a folded horn like this for mid use and then have a tractrix horn for the highs.

I am new to this so I am sorry if this is an idiotic question.
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post #346 of 713
12/24/10 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

these are very impressive. I just now saw this thread for the first time and I am very intrigued by it.

However, I do have a question....like everyone else...

this design uses a driver that was originally designed for use as a midrange driver....do these kinds of folded horns not work for the mids at all? I was thinking it would be nice to build a folded horn like this for mid use and then have a tractrix horn for the highs.

I am new to this so I am sorry if this is an idiotic question.

While it may have been designed as a "midrange", the motor of the Anarchy driver has an impressive one-way x-max of 13 mm, and makes nearly no mechanical noise at high excursions. The Tang Band W6-1139 also has these traits. A great many "subwoofer" drivers do not.

In this subwoofer design, I sacrificed the midrange to extend the usable bandwidth lower in the spectrum. I recommend crossing this over near 100 Hz, because the response gets ugly above that point. DSP or equalization can correct things to a point, but this was designed as a subwoofer.

Compare this design to a mid/high horn. This design loads the driver to 25 Hz. It is folded up into a handy take-home size, otherwise it would be 13 feet long. It is also folded because the tapped configuration loads both sides of the driver, which means there has to be at least one fold to place the sides of the driver in the correct relationship. The folds also attenuate the higher frequencies. In contrast, a typical mid horn is no more than a few feet deep, loads the driver to 500 Hz or so, and typically has no bends to attenuate higher frequencies.
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post #347 of 713
12/24/10 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmcquaid View Post

I am looking at building one of these soon but was wondering wether the following tang band woofers would suit as these are the only ones i can source in the uk.

W6-1139SG
W6-1139SH

Any help would be mush apprecited.

Cheers,
Greg

I originally designed this with the Tang Band W6-1139-SI, so those should also work. Looks like GPM's simulation was done at 2.83 V, so the actual 1-watt response will be ~3 dB lower.

I'm listening to a tapped horn with a lumpier modeled (and measured) response than that. It is not so objectionable to cause me to rush out and build something different. To be honest, moving it into position in my room made things much worse (as most rooms are apt to do....). I am working on an improved design, slowly......
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post #348 of 713
12/24/10 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

While it may have been designed as a "midrange", the motor of the Anarchy driver has an impressive one-way x-max of 13 mm, and makes nearly no mechanical noise at high excursions. The Tang Band W6-1139 also has these traits. A great many "subwoofer" drivers do not.

In this subwoofer design, I sacrificed the midrange to extend the usable bandwidth lower in the spectrum. I recommend crossing this over near 100 Hz, because the response gets ugly above that point. DSP or equalization can correct things to a point, but this was designed as a subwoofer.

Compare this design to a mid/high horn. This design loads the driver to 25 Hz. It is folded up into a handy take-home size, otherwise it would be 13 feet long. It is also folded because the tapped configuration loads both sides of the driver, which means there has to be at least one fold to place the sides of the driver in the correct relationship. The folds also attenuate the higher frequencies. In contrast, a typical mid horn is no more than a few feet deep, loads the driver to 500 Hz or so, and typically has no bends to attenuate higher frequencies.


I see, but what if you did a folded horn with a mid range for midrange use?

say I wanted to do something like this but also mount a CD horn ontop of it for a 2 way horn? is that possible?
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post #349 of 713
12/24/10 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I see, but what if you did a folded horn with a mid range for midrange use?

say I wanted to do something like this but also mount a CD horn ontop of it for a 2 way horn? is that possible?

That's certainly possible. For example, Klipsch has been selling speakers like that for decades.

Compromise the lower end, make it a shorter horn, and minimize the folds. Tapped horns are typically not the right tool for midbass - you'd probably want a front-loaded horn.

That's a completely different project than what we did here.
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post #350 of 713
12/24/10 at 11:55am
ok, I have never built any speakers but I have already decided that horns, even thought they are the most complicated....are the most fascinating so I am trying to learn as much as i can about them before i consider a build. I have ordered a few books as well. However, they have yet to arrive.
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post #351 of 713
12/24/10 at 6:58pm
I'm building 2 of these out of mdf and the tang bands this weekend. This is my first speaker build of any kind. Couple of newb questions....

1. Right now I've got the metal speaker housing butting up to the hole in the baffle, is this the correct way or is the speaker supposed to go through the hole of the baffle and mount/screwed down from the front?

2. Is pl or some kind of adhesive used in addition to screws to hold it in place/seal the metal housing of the speaker to the baffle? Right now I've just got screws.

3. When you say this needs to be crossed over at 100mhz.....is that something that I do in my receiver or is that some other piece of gear I need? I am using Jack's plate amps to power these and a Denon 1611 receiver.
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post #352 of 713
12/24/10 at 7:29pm
1. Yes.

2. I use PE's speaker caulking or duct seal. In a pinch, I have used plumbers putty. Don't use pl, the driver will never come out.

3. That will work fine. Jack's amps are a good fit. Set the receiver to a 100 hz crossover.

Sorry so terse, posting from the phone.
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post #353 of 713
12/25/10 at 2:20pm
Lilmike where can I find the exodus anarchy plan
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post #354 of 713
12/25/10 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kornny View Post

Lilmike where can I find the exodus anarchy plan

First page of this thread, second post....

Scroll down one post from this one

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post #355 of 713
12/25/10 at 4:04pm
find it
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post #356 of 713
1/4/11 at 5:07am
At the risk of exposing my newbie-ness I have a question regarding amplification for these awesome Exodus Anarchy TH's. (I have read through this thread many times and have seen the wide range of amps from the 240W Dayton to JHidley's NHT amps) I am planning on using 3 of these TH's for music and movies. 2 of them will be for the home theater, and 1 for music in another room with a pair of bookshelves. I need an amp for the three TH's and bookshelf pair.

I would like to purchase an amp that I can also use for this TH build and possible future builds (in a sense, future-proofing if I ever desire to build another sub for lower frequencies. This is why I'm looking at larger amps). Will a Behringer EP2500 + DSP1124 (for EQ and to high pass at 25Hz) be overkill for 3 of these Exodus Anarchy TH's + Bookshelf pair? I understand that this amp has excessive power for this setup, but will it be ok if the volume is kept down? I'm trying to prevent myself from purchasing multiple amps down the road.

I would also like this amp/DSP to run a separate pair of bookshelves for a 2.1 music system (as a zone 2 in another room) outside of my main 5.2 movie system. (Disclaimer: I come from a car audio background and am not familiar with what pro-audio amps are capable of.) If this EP2500 + DSP1124 setup is not a good combination for my needs, what do you guys recommend? Thanks for your time and for this great community

As for the bookshelf pair, I'm planning on building the Karma Indignias. My AVR is a Denon1911
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post #357 of 713
1/4/11 at 6:10am
How do these compare output wise to a BFM table tuba?
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post #358 of 713
1/4/11 at 12:43pm
@justphil

Check #292 above for comparison to THT. Use BFM site for comparison of table tuba to THT.

Also #124 for output level from four.

Also #309 for alternative driver.
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post #359 of 713
1/4/11 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxjr View Post

At the risk of exposing my newbie-ness I have a question regarding amplification for these awesome Exodus Anarchy TH's. (I have read through this thread many times and have seen the wide range of amps from the 240W Dayton to JHidley's NHT amps) I am planning on using 3 of these TH's for music and movies. 2 of them will be for the home theater, and 1 for music in another room with a pair of bookshelves. I need an amp for the three TH's and bookshelf pair.

I would like to purchase an amp that I can also use for this TH build and possible future builds (in a sense, future-proofing if I ever desire to build another sub for lower frequencies. This is why I'm looking at larger amps). Will a Behringer EP2500 + DSP1124 (for EQ and to high pass at 25Hz) be overkill for 3 of these Exodus Anarchy TH's + Bookshelf pair? I understand that this amp has excessive power for this setup, but will it be ok if the volume is kept down? I'm trying to prevent myself from purchasing multiple amps down the road.

I would also like this amp/DSP to run a separate pair of bookshelves for a 2.1 music system (as a zone 2 in another room) outside of my main 5.2 movie system. (Disclaimer: I come from a car audio background and am not familiar with what pro-audio amps are capable of.) If this EP2500 + DSP1124 setup is not a good combination for my needs, what do you guys recommend? Thanks for your time and for this great community

As for the bookshelf pair, I'm planning on building the Karma Indignias. My AVR is a Denon1911

Pro amp vs car amp? While "Watts are watts", pro amps deliver higher voltages to get those "watts", and volts are what drive speakers.

Strapping these onto a pro amp like the EP-2500 is way past overkill. These really can't use more than 100 watts each. Sure, headroom is nice, and more power is better than less, but 100 watts X2 is a lot less than an EP2500 delivers, and three of Jack Hidley's surplus amps cost lots less than the EP2500 does.

The MiniDSP is probably a better EQ choice, as it will do a highpass as well as EQ (the DSP1124 does not do highpass).

However, these are pretty flat through the range of interest, so if you use one of the surplus plate amps mentioned above, they have an appropriate highpass built in already.
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post #360 of 713
1/4/11 at 1:53pm
Thanks, Mike! I can always count on you. I'll get dedicated amps for your TH build.

Would you advise to get 3 of the NHT Foster amps or a 300 Bash amp or the Dayton 240? From what I can tell, of the 3 only the NHT has a highpass filter. It would sort of be ideal for me to have just one amp and DSP rather than an amp for each build. However, I'm still a newbie . Are there advantages to having a dedicated amp to each sub?
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