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21" Maelstrom Curved Box Build - Page 8

post #211 of 732
Damn.

That is one HELL of a job you've done there, excellent work! I love the shape of the enclosure, and I'm very excited to see the finished product. The resined plywood on the interior looks surprisingly good, the outside should be even better!

Subscribed, keep up the good work!
post #212 of 732
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

corock,

What type of plywood is that?

sanded 3/4" pine
post #213 of 732
amazing...simply amazing
post #214 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by corock View Post

Does it matter what stage of sanding I coat the surface with wood filler to fill in all the little holes and gaps? I just finished sanding with 120, should I do it now while the grit is coarse enough to easily take the filler off, or wait til the final sanding with 180?

Here's my 2 cents.
The smoother the surface before applying wood filler, the less sanding you will need to do to remove the filler from the areas surrounding the repair site.

You want to fill the gaps, yet leave no evidence of the filler on the solid areas around the gap, to reduce the likelihood of drawing attention to the repair.
This issue is irrelevant if you are painting the surface. Sorry, I forgot whether you intend to paint or tint.
post #215 of 732
Thread Starter 
Experimenting on one of my test pieces has raised a problem. Because I'm dealing with a very porous wood it releases a lot of air when the epoxy is applied and causes air bubbles; more than can be removed by traditional methods.

I'm going to try a tip from System 3. I won't seal the wood, put on a thin layer of epoxy, let it soak into the wood and squeegie the excess off. That is suppose to close off the pores and prevent air releasing into subsequent coats of epoxy.

If that doesn't work I guess I'll be looking at a different way of finishing the wood.
post #216 of 732
Corock, did you try mixing some sawdust with a clear drying wood glue for filling,, ???

have used this method on my wood RC (radio control) boats with great results,,

Derry
post #217 of 732
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derry View Post

Corock, did you try mixing some sawdust with a clear drying wood glue for filling,, ???

have used this method on my wood RC (radio control) boats with great results,,

Derry

No I didn't. Because I'm dealing with ply ends there are hundreds if not thousands of little voids, pits, saw marks, etc that need to be filled. Instead of trying to spot fill all that I wiped the entire enclosure with Minwax stainable wood filler. I'm in the process of taking off the excess now. I figured your sawdust/glue mixture wouldn't work well with that method.
post #218 of 732
[quote=corock;18574790]Experimenting on one of my test pieces has raised a problem. Because I'm dealing with a very porous wood it releases a lot of air when the epoxy is applied and causes air bubbles; more than can be removed by traditional methods. QUOTE]

One or two coats of a shellac-based sanding sealer should eliminate the air-bubble problem--just make sure the shellac is unwaxed, as any sanding sealer would be. That sounded a little confusing. Because I mentioned shellac, I realized that you have some shellac options beyond the Sanding Sealers. That's why I said to make sure the shellac is unwaxed.

If you have never used shellac before, then you will want to spray it, as it flashes off very quickly (dry to the touch).

One or two light coats should do the trick, just keep it light so you won't have to sand any runs.

If you can't spray, then forget about using shellac (once you experiment on a large panel scrap piece, you will understand why you only want to spray shellac on a large project).

Shellac cures so quickly, you can begin applying epoxy over it within an hour.

Alternatively, you can seal the wood with a solvent-based poly, which can be sprayed, brushed or rolled. Just keep it thin, so it will cure reasonably quickly (two or three weeks).
post #219 of 732
Thread Starter 
I had sealed my test piece with two coats of dewaxed shellac...maybe I did something wrong?
post #220 of 732
I doubt that you did anything wrong.

Since the plywood edges are so porous, it may very well require a couple more coats to seal it up.

It's just my opinion, but I think you can get it sealed up a whole lot quicker and easier--not to mention cheaper--by spraying shellac than any other means.
post #221 of 732
Very nice.
I'd consider vacuum veneering it. It really justifies a killer finish.
post #222 of 732
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassingInterest View Post

I doubt that you did anything wrong.

Since the plywood edges are so porous, it may very well require a couple more coats to seal it up.

It's just my opinion, but I think you can get it sealed up a whole lot quicker and easier--not to mention cheaper--by spraying shellac than any other means.

I'll give 4 coats of shellac a try and see if that makes a difference.

btw is shellac easy to spray? Ive never sprayed on a finish before.
post #223 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by corock View Post

I'll give 4 coats of shellac a try and see if that makes a difference.

btw is shellac easy to spray? Ive never sprayed on a finish before.

Shellac is very easy to spray, but if you've never sprayed a finish before, I would not begin with shellac, because it is not fun to sand.
Shellac gums up the sandpaper quickly.
So, any unevenness or drips or orange-peel, before you get the bugs worked out for spraying, will be an unreasonably difficult challenge to sand smooth.

Considering the amount of voids you have in the plywood edges, even minute ones, I can't help thinking that you may be very likely to get a lot of air bubbles in the epoxy no matter how thin you try to make the layer, as the epoxy will be in the voids. A solvent-based poly might be the safe route to seal this beast.

Just my opinion.
post #224 of 732
Thread Starter 
Well.......the voids aren't going to be an issue since it took a wood filler bath.

post #225 of 732
its only May this month, but this is looking to be the sexiest sub of the year already
post #226 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

Very nice.
I'd consider vacuum veneering it. It really justifies a killer finish.

Is there a veneer that can follow those contours?

Either way, I much prefer the plies.
post #227 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Is there a veneer that can follow those contours?

Either way, I much prefer the plies.

I vacuum veneer every day. I would not attempt that. The veneer would likely wrinkle and or tear near the bump out.

I like the plies also, it makes it very unique.

What I have not seen is a photo that gives it scale. That's a 21" driver!
post #228 of 732
CoRock--If you can get your hands on some spray equipment, now is the time to start practicing with it on large scrap panels. You could come up to speed a bit more quickly if you have a friend who can help with adjusting the spray.

Face it. In order to get the fine furniture finish you desire on this large project, you're going to have to spray.

If you're spraying anyway, then this is how I would approach it if it were me.
4 light coats of shellac based sanding sealer.
Keep it light and easy, so you won't have to sand any runs.
Next, I would spray 8-10 light coats of MinWax Oil Modified Water Based Polyurethane, High Gloss.
Water Based, for speed. This specific water based product has the kind of clarity that you expect with the solvent based polys. High gloss, because the stuff that knocks down the sheen in the semi-gloss and satins can affect the clarity in multiple layers. The final topcoat determines the sheen, not the several coats in between.

Once you have built up 8-10 layers on this beast, sand to 220.
Then, spray 2 more coats of the poly and sand to 220.

Now, you're ready to tint.
I like Trans-Tint.
It dissolves really well in alcohol and can be added to shellac.
But, I don't recommend that approach for this project, because of the sanding issues I mentioned earlier, should any sanding be necessary.

Thankfully, Trans-Tint can also be added to the water based poly, but it may not dissolve completely and may need to be filtered with a paper cone paint filter (medium mesh). But, it sands easily if sanding is needed.

I like to mix the Trans-Tint a little pale, so that it takes me 3 light coats to reach the depth of color I am after.

Once you get the look you want, spray another 6 coats of clear, untinted poly, to protect the color coat.

Sand to 220, then spray 2 final topcoats.

This sounds like a lot of time, but it goes pretty fast.

It's just my opinion. Perhaps someone has a better approach.
post #229 of 732
Thread Starter 
P.I., you sound like you've might have done some wood finishing before. You know Saskatchewan isn't all that far from Texas, and our oil is in the ground instead of the water. I'll buy the beverages.

Seriously though, I've never tried a furniture grade finish before and I really don't want to mess this thing up. I called a customer of mine who does furniture building and he says if I have it ready to spray, ie. already stained, he can spray it with catalyzed lacquer. I'm not sure if that would be a good way to go.
post #230 of 732
I think the more daunting challenge than top coating is going to be the staining process. The stain is going actually change the look of the piece whereas the top coat only seals the stain and adds varying degrees of sheen. All that filler you put on is not going to take stain the same as the areas where there is no filler. End grain sections of the ply will take stain different from edge grain. I think you need to spend the most amount of your experimenting on samples with the stain process. Good luck!

Beautiful speaker you're building there!!
post #231 of 732
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy3d View Post

I think the more daunting challenge than top coating is going to be the staining process. The stain is going actually change the look of the piece whereas the top coat only seals the stain and adds varying degrees of sheen. All that filler you put on is not going to take stain the same as the areas where there is no filler. End grain sections of the ply will take stain different from edge grain. I think you need to spend the most amount of your experimenting on samples with the stain process. Good luck!

Beautiful speaker you're building there!!

I agree, which is why I want to stay away from staining the wood if I can.

I've got the filler off part of it already. For the most part the filler is gone except in all the little holes. The parts with filler are very minute, there's just hundreds of them, which is why I wiped down the whole box. Staring at plys close up for extended periods can make a guy go blind.
post #232 of 732
i would see if you can contact somebody at one of the stain companies and ask for some advice on how to make the plywood take the stain in the most even fashion.
post #233 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Is there a veneer that can follow those contours?

Either way, I much prefer the plies.

I'm not sure, I never tried anything that complex / curved. The veneer would need to be thin, sequenced and seamed.
I'm in the minority, but I'm not a fan of ply edges. I edge band when I have exposed plywood, unless it's shop furniture. Yet, It's your project, and your doing a great job. Frankly, finishing is always the hardest part of any project, and often the most under appreciated.
Again . . . killer project.
post #234 of 732
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the props SwampFox.

The plys are definately staying. If I was to cover them up I probably could have acheived the same result by just fibeglassing the shape and saved myself a lot of work.
post #235 of 732
here is some furniture made out of...plywood...with complex curves and the like. if done well, it can look *beautiful*
http://3rings.designerpages.com/2008...#axzz0mz7cxgXv


LL
post #236 of 732
Thread Starter 
wow, that stuff really is nice. A little closer to home you just have to look at Magico speakers. They're stuff is made just like mine and sells for tens of thousands of dollars, although they use better wood. I've sent them an email asking how they finish their speakers. I'm not sure if they'll share that info.

post #237 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

here is some furniture made out of...plywood...with complex curves and the like. if done well, it can look *beautiful*
http://3rings.designerpages.com/2008...#axzz0mz7cxgXv


Awesome work.
post #238 of 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by corock View Post

wow, that stuff really is nice. A little closer to home you just have to look at Magico speakers. They're stuff is made just like mine and sells for tens of thousands of dollars, although they use better wood. I've sent them an email asking how they finish their speakers. I'm not sure if they'll share that info.


Maybe you should send Magico a picture of your sub as well and offer to let them use the design for a nominal fee
post #239 of 732
Thread Starter 
Perhaps 10% of sales

I actually don't expect them to even respond to my inquiry. These guys put so much $ and effort into r&d that they're not real eager to share it. I know my local Paradigm dealer tried to smooth talk his way into getting a 3000 watt plate amp from a Sub 25 for my build. Paradigm shot him down hard.
post #240 of 732
Staining can be done, but tinting a clearcoat can be done with much less effort and no worries about even absorbtion.
Here is an example of the process I described earlier--seal, several coats of clear poly, sanded smooth, tint coat, clear topcoat, buff. No stain was used, only tinted clearcoat.

In this thread are some photos of a tinted shellac (red mahogany Trans-Tint) over lacewood veneer. Again, no stain was used.
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