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Krell 707 Evolution. Is this the Best Processor? - Page 3

post #61 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrips View Post

Ok. Great. So i will ask my question again, is there someone here that had the chance to compare Krell/Ares vs. Anthem/ARC?

Thanks

Not directly back-to-back but I have used them in the same system/room. Comments will appear in print.
post #62 of 209
hihi
you are learning
post #63 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackx View Post

Hi Boonyarat. Glad to hear your 707 is working fine!

Below is an image of my Finite Pagode Master Reference rack with all of its 'inhabitants'

On top you'll find Hanss T-60 TT with 2 arms (Thales w/Lyra Titan i - and SME V Gold w/EMT 5), hooked up to Ypsilon Stepup & Ypsilon VPS 100 RIAA)

Next is Krell EVO 505 CD/SACD to the left, right is Marantz UD9004 BR (to be ditched when my EVO 555 BR arrives, hopefully some time this autumn )

Then, to the left is the Ypsilon VPS100 - to the right 707

Bottom: Nordost Thor


My theater/listening room:

Krell LAT 1 and LAT 2 (rear) Lat C (center) Resolution LFE
Krell EVO 600's and EVO 403.
Room treated with various diffusors and absorbers.

Everything is linked together with the new and amazing cable brand Zensati. They even provide CAST cables; I used to have Krell's own MMF CAST, but Zensati outrunned them hands down in direct comparison in my home.




--

Rear side.


Cheers!

JackX

Nice (understatement) set up Jackx. What are you using for subs?
post #64 of 209
@Matjet: I'm using Krell's Resolution LFE

http://www.stereotimes.com/amp021506.shtml

It isn't a CAST lfe, but what the h**k; it's still a marvelous bass loudspeaker. With the new V-6 bass traps the bass push now really kicks in when called for, and the sound of the deepest notes is just that, the "sound of the notes".

The LFE is situated between the LAT-2 in the rear of the room, not depicted.

I have, since the above images were taken, got my Finite Rack upgrade. My turntable is so heavy (you can see the down force from the TT making the shelf buckling down ever so slightly) so I was forced to buy the Heavy Duty top shelf from the German manufacturer.

Cheers, and TY for nice words!
post #65 of 209
KRELL EVOLUTION 707 reviewed by Kal Rubinson

http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...n_the_round_44
post #66 of 209
I was told there is a used one up on ebay real cheap or there will be on Monday.
post #67 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boonyarat View Post

KRELL EVOLUTION 707 reviewed by Kal Rubinson

http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...n_the_round_44

The room correction, and even the manual parametric EQ (1/3rd octave, really?), don't seem very effective; especially for the price.
post #68 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I was told there is a used one up on ebay real cheap or there will be on Monday.

Out of curiosity, what does the seller / user not like about it that is resulting in the sale...

Thanks...
post #69 of 209
I don`t know. Change is good. Maybe he was so happy with it he couldn`t stand being so happy and satisfied and needed to inject some imperfection into his existence. Undoubtedly he will buy something cheaper. Maybe he needs cash. Maybe it had weaknesses he couldn`t live with. I just don`t know.
post #70 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Maybe he was so happy with it he couldn`t stand being so happy and satisfied and needed to inject some imperfection into his existence.

You crack me up sometimes...
post #71 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Out of curiosity, what does the seller / user not like about it that is resulting in the sale...

Thanks...

I heard that The Bland bought it, but then after receiving it in the box, without even taking it out, he bought the ADA instead!
post #72 of 209
Hi Kal-this is my opinion only.
I have been a one box lover(no pun intended)for years starting with the Pioneer elite reciever(still have) and then the Anthem AVM 30,D1,D2,Classe SSP 600 and now a Krell HTS 7.1.I have found that a good pre/pro satifies my audio needs for both HT and 2ch(also 2.1ch) and SACD(5.1).As I do understand your article was based on EQ'n,you had plenty to attribute to sound quality and this is my quarrel.As with the Micheal Freemer review of the 7bsst2 mono's in a $400,000 plus room(and still to this day have not seen anyone with this combo($68,000 speakers with $8000 mono's)),you have made sound quality judgments with a $30,000 top dog pre/pro combined with Paradigms Studio 20,60,servo 15 and a Bryston 9bsst.I have used all of these products together myself with the Anthem AVM 30 and D1 and found the metal dome tweeters with the Bryston a little to crisp and again,I doubt anyone with this 707 will have your level of products.Yet you seem to make judgment calls on this pre/pro.I have been working on my system a while now but you may not want to make many to decisions on SQ with your $5500(used market value) setup.
again...my opinion
regards
post #73 of 209
Jackx .... what are those rectangular bass traps at the back of your room? (Maybe even a link?)
post #74 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Not directly back-to-back but I have used them in the same system/room. Comments will appear in print.

Hi Kal,
I have followed your reviews for a long time and I love them. However, I am very surprised by your underwhelming review of the Krell Evo 707. The processor has the best sounding preamp section I have ever heard (including two channel preamps). The 707 preamp section is almost the same used in the Krell Evolution 2 which retails for $55,000 for two channels (it is used in all channels in the 707, which makes the 707 a 'bargain', sort of). My upgrade from the Krell KCT to the Evo 707 was easily by far the most stunning single improvement I have ever made in my music or home theater system. I have been involved in this hobby since my early college days in 1974 and have been upgrading continuously over the years.
Maybe the equalizer and set up program are nothing special in the evo 707, but the sound with stereo music and home theater is incredible. You need to try it out with great speakers, Krell amps and Krell or other high end CD/SACD player and Blue Ray disc player. Also, try it with and without Cast connections if you get a chance. You should take up Bill Mckeigan's challenge in his response letter and have him put together an all krell system, including speakers and Evo amps, and try the 707 again. It would be particularly interesting if you compared the stereo preamp section of the 707 to the Evo 2. I think you would be extremely impressed with the 707.

You are usually dead on, Kal, but you really missed on this one. The 707 is a very special piece of equipment.
post #75 of 209
I believe that a Kal should take up Bills offer.
post #76 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

You should take up Bill Mckeigan's challenge in his response letter and have him put together an all krell system, including speakers and Evo amps, and try the 707 again.

And what would that prove about the 707 if I listened to it in a completely unfamiliar context?

Quote:


It would be particularly interesting if you compared the stereo preamp section of the 707 to the Evo 2. I think you would be extremely impressed with the 707.

Again, that is not really relevant as the column is about multichannel equipment.

Quote:


You are usually dead on, Kal, but you really missed on this one. The 707 is a very special piece of equipment.

I thought I was pretty positive about it. My few caveats were quite specific and explicit.
post #77 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

And what would that prove about the 707 if I listened to it in a completely unfamiliar context?

You know your audio. I don't think high end gear is unfamiliar to you.

Again, that is not really relevant as the column is about multichannel equipment.

Kal, The multichannel Evo 707 has the same great pre-amp section in each channel as the Evo 2. I think it would be an interesting comparison. I bet the sound quality of the Evo 707 would very close to the Evo 2 if not just as good (but in ALL channels with the Evo 707).

I thought I was pretty positive about it. My few caveats were quite specific and explicit.

I interpreted your reiview as: average equalizer/set up, good/excellent sound, too big, too expensive. I respectfully diasagree. The sound is spectacular. It must be heard with good equipment to be fully appreciated. Maybe the type of review I am suggesting is not a perfect fit for your column, but I do think it would be well worth the time and effort.
post #78 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

I interpreted your reiview as: average equalizer/set up, good/excellent sound, too big, too expensive. I respectfully diasagree. The sound is spectacular. It must be heard with good equipment to be fully appreciated. Maybe the type of review I am suggesting is not a perfect fit for your column, but I do think it would be well worth the time and effort.

Shilling for one's own kit, perchance?

I read the review in question and it WAS pretty positive - and, for what it's worth, I happen to think the 707 is too expensive and a bit of an eyesore. But you are right, it is how it sounds that is the most important thing.
post #79 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

I interpreted your reiview as: average equalizer/set up, good/excellent sound, too big, too expensive. I respectfully diasagree. The sound is spectacular. It must be heard with good equipment to be fully appreciated. Maybe the type of review I am suggesting is not a perfect fit for your column, but I do think it would be well worth the time and effort.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lesser pre-pro auditioned with 'good equipment' might [positively] surprise you as well. I think Kal's reference system is familiar to him and when trying a new piece in the familiar system allows for the best means to assess differences (improvements or not). I found his review pretty positive.
post #80 of 209
Krell definitely lost business from Kal's review I must state.
post #81 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Krell definitely lost business from Kal's review I must state.

Anyone buying a processor based on a review has more money than brains. If Krell needs to sell processors that way, they should change their strategy and try to sell equipment based on performance.

I don't see what's wrong with the review. It was very positive overall and Krell should be happy with it. I've tried it as well, with really good equipment (there's no such thing as a single best speaker, amp, cable, whatever in the world) and the Krell didn't make it into my Top 3. But I'm sure there's a market for it and Krell with sell a bunch of them.
post #82 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Anyone buying a processor based on a review has more money than brains. If Krell needs to sell processors that way, they should change their strategy and try to sell equipment based on performance.

I don't see what's wrong with the review. It was very positive overall and Krell should be happy with it. I've tried it as well, with really good equipment (there's no such thing as a single best speaker, amp, cable, whatever in the world) and the Krell didn't make it into my Top 3. But I'm sure there's a market for it and Krell with sell a bunch of them.

What were your top three and why? Did you demo all three?
post #83 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I thought I was pretty positive about it.

I have no horse in any SSP race and read lot of reviews. So my comment are entirely based on a dispassionate interpretation of the text.

All reviews have somewhat of a positive bias. This is not a criticism, but the result of the natural tendency of the reviewer to look for the positive. Besides, if every average sounding piece of kit would be described as such in a review, magazines would quickly run out of pieces to review, because manuacturers would opt out.

So if a review is "pretty positive", after adjustment for reviewers bias, this means it is an average component at its price point. For a component to be considered "very good", the reviewer would have to be raving about it (like Kal was about the Classe). The Krell review, was clearly in the "positive review" = average compent, category.

I can totally understand why Krell lost sales based on this. People can only audition so many pieces equipment. If I had 30K to spend on an SSP, and used reviews to draw up the shortlist, I would audition Meridian before the Krell.
post #84 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

I have no horse in any SSP race and read lot of reviews. So my comment are entirely based on a dispassionate interpretation of the text.

All reviews have somewhat of a positive bias. This is not a criticism, but the result of the natural tendency of the reviewer to look for the positive. Besides, if every average sounding piece of kit would be described as such in a review, magazines would quickly run out of pieces to review, because manuacturers would opt out.

So if a review is "pretty positive", after adjustment for reviewers bias, this means it is an average component at its price point. For a component to be considered "very good", the reviewer would have to be raving about it (like Kal was about the Classe). The Krell review, was clearly in the "positive review" = average compent, category.

Perhaps we should get Umberto Eco's take on the semiotics of audio reviews.

Quote:


I can totally understand why Krell lost sales based on this. People can only audition so many pieces equipment. If I had 30K to spend on an SSP, and used reviews to draw up the shortlist, I would audition Meridian before the Krell.

That is unfortunate and was not my intent. My intent was to provide enough information for someone to decide if the product was appropriate for his own use. I do not accept the premise conveyed by the title of this thread as there is no product that is equally suitable for everyone. For example, I would not recommend the Meridian (which I own) for anyone who dotes on his turntable. I have seen many setups, such as here on AVS, for which the 707 would be ideal.
post #85 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

I don't see what's wrong with the review. It was very positive overall and Krell should be happy with it. I've tried it as well, with really good equipment (there's no such thing as a single best speaker, amp, cable, whatever in the world) and the Krell didn't make it into my Top 3. But I'm sure there's a market for it and Krell with sell a bunch of them.

Nor a 'best' surround-sound processor. I would think (hope?) that at the super high end of the processor market, there is nothing notably wrong with any of the contenders. When interest turns to buying, different folks will have different experiences, and value equipment interactions differently. In my case, the Meridian 861 worked better with my equipment (Genesis speakers; VTL amps) in my room than the Classe and Theta. I did not audition the Krell (nor the ADA), but I can certainly imagine there will be folks who prefer it for their own unique reasons.

And, for what it is worth, my subjective ranking was:

1. Meridian 861v6
2. Classe
3. Meridian 861v4
4. Theta (admittedly, an older version, so probably not fair)

I am not a turntable guy, so the 'all digital' nature of the Meridian is not a detractor for me.
post #86 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That is unfortunate and was not my intent. My intent was to provide enough information for someone to decide if the product was appropriate for his own use. I do not accept the premise conveyed by the title of this thread as there is no product that is equally suitable for everyone. For example, I would not recommend the Meridian (which I own) for anyone who dotes on his turntable. I have seen many setups, such as here on AVS, for which the 707 would be ideal.

On its mertis as a SSP alone there is nothing in the review that suggests the 30K pricetag is justified. If - as matjet suggests - the 707 is also a reference quality analog preamp for which some folks would happily shell out $20K+ by itself, all of suddent you may have a competitive product. To be fair, assessing 2 channel analog performance is not in the charter of music in the round.

There is an analogy with the upcoming Ayre universal review. If you assess it as a digital HDMI transport you may well conclude it is a very good transport, but question if it is worth 10K (as an HDMI transport). In this case, Fremer can come to the rescue by reporting it is a reference 2 channel analog player, worth every penny.

The difference is the Krell is primarily designed and marketed as SSP, while the Ayre is designed and positioned as a SOTA HDMI transport and 2 channel analog player.
post #87 of 209
I think there is no reason for a $30K surround processor. It's like paying $300 for a special Kobe Deluxe filet. Is it really good? Perhaps. Is it really any better than your run of the mill $60 filet?? Probably not.

This idea that it is as good as a $60K pre-amp is hilarious. That would suggest that a $60K pre-amp may really improve the home theater experience. Most buy SSPs for movies. If you're that finicky about music, time to splurge for a second system and do it right. With the highly compressed Blu Ray soundtracks, a $30K SSP, to me, is a laugher. There is a threshold in paying for a movie processor and it is far below $30K.

Now mind you, spend what you like... but $30,000 for an SSP is akin to $500 piece of meat or $100,000 bottle of wine. Nice to brag about, but not living up to it's price.

Simply my opinion.
post #88 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I think there is no reason for a $30K surround processor. It's like paying $300 for a special Kobe Deluxe filet. Is it really good? Perhaps. Is it really any better than your run of the mill $60 filet?? Probably not.

This idea that it is as good as a $60K pre-amp is hilarious. That would suggest that a $60K pre-amp may really improve the home theater experience. Most buy SSPs for movies. I'd you're that finicky about music, time to splurge for a second system and do it right. With the highly compressed Blu Ray soundtracks, a $30K SSP, to me, is a laugher. There is a threshold in paying for a movie processor and it is far below $30K.

Now mind you, spend what you like... but $30,000 for an SSP is akin to $500 piece of meat or $100,000 bottle of wine. Nice to brag about, but not living up to it's price.

My point is that if I am the high end snob with unlimited budget you are alluding to and decided to spend 30K on an SSP, this would be a rounding error in my total system outlay.

Simply my opinion.


With people happily paying $60K+ for "the DCS stack", $100K plus for any number of speakers, $10K for speaker cables, $30K preamps (and the list goes on), I am frankly surprised the ultimate statement in SSPs (for now) sells for a mere $30K. This thing packs RoomEQ, 8 channels worth of DA converson, analog preamp, HDMI switching, decoding etc.

SSPs are by far the cheapest components around in the ultra high end segment. In a multi channel system, you can easily spend more on speaker cables.
post #89 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

With people happily paying $60K+ for "the DCS stack", $100K plus for any number of speakers, $10K for speaker cables, $30K preamps (and the list goes on), I am frankly surprised the ultimate statement in SSPs (for now) sells for a mere $30K. This thing packs RoomEQ, 8 channels worth of DA converson, analog preamp, HDMI switching, decoding etc.

SSPs are by far the cheapest components around in the ultra high end segment. In a multi channel system, you can easily spend more on speaker cables.

I can see spending a lot for a music system as there are pristine recordings to be heard and can be so well reproduced by the aforementioned mega-priced gear.

However, Movie sound for home is different. With HDMI, you simply don't need analog sections and a whole other bunch of useless features. Blu Ray discs (soundtracks) are highly mixed, multi-tracked, make believe sound. There is no 'pureness' in the typical movie soundtrack be it Transformers 2 or A Beautiful Mind.

The idea that a movie recording is better on a $30K pre-amp than the run of the mill $10K (or cheaper model), to me, is ludicrous. The SSP in my opinion is not the most important cog in the machine - particularly as we are no longer in an analog world.

I've said it before, if you're serious about music, buying a piece to do double duty (music and movies), particularly at this price point, is a waste of money. Buy the DCS or such and put it in it's own room. Room treatments would certainly be different as would doing away with acoustical problems that may be created by a decent sized movie screen!
post #90 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

On its mertis as a SSP alone there is nothing in the review that suggests the 30K pricetag is justified. If - as matjet suggests - the 707 is also a reference quality analog preamp for which some folks would happily shell out $20K+ by itself, all of suddent you may have a competitive product.

Not sure I entirely 'get' the logic here. Unless one happens to have digitial speakers, surely the function of the SSP as an analog preamp is as critical as anything it might do as a processor of incoming digital signals? Your analogy to the Ayre player is a good one; I guess I see the SSP in a similar light.

One can, I suppose, use a two-channel analog preamp to augment the SSP, but absent analog sources (which I do not use) the approach seems unecessary if hi-end SSPs have correspondingly best-in-class analog output capability.

So, the question is, 'do they' and does a best-in-class analog output capability justify the $30K pricetag? Matjet suggests the Krell 707 does, and I believe the Meridian 861v6 does also.
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