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Design & Cooling of Built in A/V Cab

post #1 of 14
4/1/10 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
Hey everyone. After much exploration, I was looking to get some advice on fan locations and install for my built in A/V cabinet. This will be a long post, but I hope to get some serious help on this. I will do my best to explain everything but I will attach pics to make it easier and give you all an idea of what I am working with. I have several questions, most involve where would you put each component and where would you install intake and exhaust fans for each of the cabs.

Here are my components I have to fit in:
1. Pioneer 1019
2. xbox 360
3. Playstation 3
4. Directv Box
5. Monster HDP 1800
6. Netgear Router

Overview:
- All cabs will have a glass front and will be closed during operation.
- My cabinets are 15" tall, so this will effect which components are by themselves and which can be combined.
- Because of certain components and their heat output, I can put them on a shelf inside the cab with a fan underneath blowing up into their belly (if this helps).
- Seems to me, the largest heat outputs are from the Pio, PS3 and directv.
- If there are 2 components in a single cab, the shelf in the middle cuts off most airflow from the top and bottom (creating 2 separate spaces). I assume this will effect placement of fans.

My first initial layout included from top to bottom:
1st cab: directv / router
2nd cab: top: xbox 360 / bottom: PS3
3rd cab: Pio 1019
4th cab: Monster Power

Things that should probably be considered:

- If I need to put components with others, which create the most heat.
- What are your preferences with stacking order of your components.
- Air flow
- I have 4 total cabs to work with each being 15" high

Questions:

1. What would be the order from top to bottom you would put these components in and which ones together?

2. Where would you put your intake & exhaust fans, and if need be, any fans inside the cab directing airflow.


One question I have is pulling air in. I have about 6 inches of space to the right of the cabinet that is covered. If I put intake fans pulling cool air from that space, for every fan I have sucking air from there, do I need a fan pushing air back into the space? If not, how does it "refill with air"? There are very small gaps at the bottom, is that enough?

I'm sure I missed some stuff, but this will do for now. Below are some pics!

Thanks in advance!



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post #2 of 14
4/2/10 at 4:13am
I am looking at the actual photo not the rendering... Looks pretty good as is.. This is what i would change.. Can you put a shelf in above the AVR ? If so put the DirecTV receiver on that shelf. Give yourself a couple inches above the AVR before you install the shelf for the DirecTV receiver.

Where is the Monster HDP 1800? Do you plan on pulling the xbox and ps3 in and out or will they stay in this cabinet forever?

If the consoles will stay put i would try and squeeze the Monster unit in that cabinet with them. If you want to take them in and out then put the monster unit in the top cabinet under where the DirceTV box is in the photo. This way you still have plenty of room for storage above it.

The idea here is to try and keep that top cabinet as empty as possible for storage. Plus you wont see the messy cabling when you eliminate the large empty spaces between your components.

Now for cooling.. Is there any ventilation in the cabinets at all?Is it acceptable to vent (cut a hole) the left side? If so i would get a CAB-COOL Cabinet Cooler from Middle Atlantic and install it at the height of the top cabinet. Its very quiet and it only runs when the cabinet heats up. Installation is pretty easy.

Then you need to make sure that air can pass from the bottom cabinet up past each shelf into the top cabinet where the CAB-COOL is installed. A nice big 3"+ hole in a straight line thru the center of each cabinet and shelf will be perfect for airflow and your cables to run between components.

The CAB-COOL has to be mounted at the top of the cabinet for it to work properly. It can be painted but your going to see it. For some people its not a huge deal but for others its a deal breaker.

You might also be able to get creative and find a better cover for it. They also have a version called CLOS-COOL that has a register style cover.
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post #3 of 14
4/2/10 at 5:03pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the great response and feedback.

As for your initial recommendation of putting a shelf above the AVR with the Directv on it, that is how I originally had it. However, I don't have the couple of inches you suggested, I have maybe an inch above the AVR. I was worried about heat just bouncing off and heating up that space. Thoughts of that space getting too hot too quickly?

The Monster right now is in the closed off cab directly below the receiver. I plan to keep the 360 and PS3 in the cabinet. I had been pulling them out, but it started to annoy to me. I would love to be able to fit the Monster in with them but after checking, there is not quite enough room for all three.

As for ventilation. Right now there is about a 2.5 inch hole going straight up the rear center of each cabinet and shelf to run wires through. Most of the hole is filled by wires so I was thinking of drilling an additional hole in the back left or right that runs straight up through all of them.

I totally have the option of venting to the left towards the TV. If I take your suggestion, would adding an intake at the very bottom cab and an exhaust at the very top with a straight through run of cut holes through each cab be enough ventilation for each section? I might be over thinking it but what I was worried about was one "section" getting hotter than another and the thermal sensor not catching it b/c it is in another part of the cabinet? Say I have the xbox and 360 together and the Directv with the AVR, and the thermal sensor is in the cabinet with the latter 2, will the fans not turn on to cool the xbox and 360 b/c it is reading a lower temp output from the AVR and directv? Or does cutting the straight through holes make enough of an impact to have the entire unit a similar temp?

I noticed you aren't too worried about cramming stuff in together. I was trying to separate each piece as best as i could thinking the more air space the cooler it would be. I did think it looked sloppier b/c of the gaps and being able to see the cords but wasn't sure if the gaps would be beneficial. I do notice in a lot of AV cabs, people cram everything together. So maybe I shouldn't be too worried about it.

Thanks again for the responses! This all will help immensely!
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post #4 of 14
4/2/10 at 5:30pm
The AVR vents from the top but the DirecTV box vents out of the back. So put the DirecTV box up as high as possible to see if you can make more space between the AVR and the shelf that the DirecTV box will be sitting on.

IMO as long as you have thermal management in place the 1 inch above the AVR will be fine. While you do have a lot of products that produce heat in a single cabinet its not out of the ordinary and if you add thermal management you will be fine.

The warm air will rise up and be pulled out of the cabinet with CAB-COOL. I would probably put the sensor in the cabinet with the AVR. I don't know if putting an intake at the bottom of the cabinet is necessary or if it will cause a problem with the CAB-COOL product. Its usually best to follow the instructions with products like this and i didnt find anything in the spec sheet about having an intake with it.

The CLOS-COOL product will provide you with an intake. Its probably twice the price but it should keep the air moving better as its meant for closets with racks in them.

Do you have a way to measure the temperature in there now? Maybe stick a thermometer in there and leave the doors shut all day while the system is being used and check to see how hot it gets in there. If its not much more than room temperature then the CAB-COOL product should be fine.

I don't know how hot the Monster component gets or if it gets hot at all. If it does get hot then be sure to include the cabinet it is in as part of the air flow path.

As for moving the consoles in and out.. This is something people do often but in your situation the only way to make it painless is to have extra sets of cables & power cords. That way you can just disconnect the box and not have to deal with the cables. Keep the additional cables in a travel bag where you can just throw in the xbox or ps3 and be on your way.

This is the pdf for CAB-COOL: http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/CA...et_toprint.pdf

This is the pdf for CLOS-COOL: http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/CL...et_toprint.pdf
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post #5 of 14
4/5/10 at 11:02am


I don't see how a single CAB COOL is going to work in what you have - if I understand, it's three separate and independent cabinets, each with a rear panel? If so you need ventilation for each cabinet, like this. In your case you would exhaust to the side, towards the TV.


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt






LL
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post #6 of 14
4/6/10 at 12:03pm
Thread Starter 
You are correct in your understanding of this being 3 separate cabinets. If what I understood of 39cent's advice, cutting a 3 inch hole that goes through each of the cabinets and shelves from the bottom all the way to the top would create enough of an airflow to cool each compartment.

I do have glass cabinet fronts, but I am not sure how the gaps, being smaller than 1/16 of an inch could let in enough return air to keep the airflow moving.

I took temp readouts in the sections and most within each cabinet is getting close to 100 degrees, the PS3 cab exceeding it after running it for an hour. The Monster doesnt create a ton of heat but it will be put into the air flow.

I was looking at having an intake and exhaust for EACH cabinet. If I rip down the shelves in each making them an inch or 2 shorter in the back could I have the intake coming in from the right blowing cool air in the lower half, with the exhaust blowing out at the top left towards the TV? Would this create enough airflow for each cabinet? And would the air in the top compartment of each cabinet be cool enough?

This leads me back to one of the questions in my initial post. If I have fans for each cab pulling cool air from the 6 inches of space to the right, do I need to have fans pushing air back into that space to refill it?

Thoughts?
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post #7 of 14
4/7/10 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post


I don’t see how a single CAB COOL is going to work in what you have

Quote:


Then you need to make sure that air can pass from the bottom cabinet up past each shelf into the top cabinet where the CAB-COOL is installed. A nice big 3"+ hole in a straight line thru the center of each cabinet and shelf will be perfect for airflow and your cables to run between components.



CAB-COOL is meant for closed cabinets with a few components. It will work fine for your application. If you really want the intake then use the CLS-COOL that was designed with one. Treat your cabinet like an AV rack and create a pass thru from the bottom to the top. Put the intake low and the exhaust high so that fresh air is pulled in from the bottom and the warm air is allowed to travel up and out of the exhaust. MA's white paper on thermal management is a good read. http://repnet.middleatlantic.com/COM...ent%203-04.pdf
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post #8 of 14
4/13/10 at 9:14am
Thread Starter 
So I have drawn up these little diagrams to get some votes on what you think would be the best method of air circulation. From what it sounds like, 39 cent would vote for D. and Wayne votes for A.

Can anyone make an argument for B. or C.?

I personally was thinking B might have been a good solution because it supplies the cabinet with more cool air, but I wasn't sure if it would effect airflow negatively.

I would assume A. replenishes the cabinet with cooler air the quickest but am not sure it is 100% necessary to have 6 fans if 1 intake and 1 exhaust will suffice.

Thanks again!
LL
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post #9 of 14
4/13/10 at 11:10am
Thread Starter 
Sorry, here is the diagram:

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post #10 of 14
4/13/10 at 11:56am

The problem I have with 39’s concept is that you’re not going to get much hot air rising from the lower compartment (where the receiver is) to the upper, unless the hole in the shelf is really large. Assuming that return air is coming through gaps around the doors, for the most part it’s going to flow in a straight line from the doors to the fan. There will be no force-air cooling of the lower cabinet, only convection, and how effective that is will be directly related to the size of the hole in the shelf.


My initial diagram (see previous post) was based on what I did with one of those three-piece entertainment centers that were popular back in the 90s. A concern was possible future resale of the unit, so I couldn’t go crazy with the hole-cutting. With a custom built in unit, that’s not your situation; you’re obviously free to cut holes anywhere you please.

Actually, now that I think about it, I only had one fan in each of my units. In each one an amp was on the lowest shelf, with a fan centered right behind (as I pictured above), exhausting heat from the amp. The idea was to eliminate most of the heat before it could drift up to the equipment in the upper shelves, and it worked very well. The upper portion of the cabinet did get a bit warm, but nothing that would be considered a concern. No fan for the upper cabinet was needed.
Quote:


So I have drawn up these little diagrams to get some votes on what you think would be the best method of air circulation. From what it sounds like, 39 cent would vote for D. and Wayne votes for A.

Can anyone make an argument for B. or C.?

Really, the only thing I see wrong with your diagrams is that the forced inlet fans are unnecessary. Only the exhaust fan(s) are needed, with inlet holes (a requirement if there is no leakage from gaps around the doors). By the way, some kind of filtering over the inlet holes (like a piece of an A/C air filter) will minimize dust in the cabinet.

Your diagram “D” is an excellent option, so long as your front doors are fully sealed and air tight. If not, as noted, most of the air flow will be only between the upper section of the door (i.e., from leakage around it) and the fan. If you want air flow from the bottom of the cabinet to the top, the cabinet doors will have to be sealed.

The pass-through holes are a good idea, but having all of them one above the other like that, I’d be concerned that air would pass straight up the holes and leave a pool of hot air lingering in each compartment. Perhaps staggering the holes, left side on one shelf and right side on the one above it, would be better. That way the airflow is forced to pass all the way through each compartment.

As I mentioned, you could isolate the heat-generating components in one of your three compartments, and fan-cool only that one. The components that don’t generate heat, if they are in their own fully-isolated compartments, you shouldn’t need any fan cooling for them.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


LL
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post #11 of 14
4/14/10 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post

[font="Comic Sans MS"]
The problem I have with 39's concept is that you're not going to get much hot air rising from the lower compartment (where the receiver is) to the upper, unless the hole in the shelf is really large. Assuming that return air is coming through gaps around the doors, for the most part it's going to flow in a straight line from the doors to the fan. There will be no force-air cooling of the lower cabinet, only convection, and how effective that is will be directly related to the size of the hole in the shelf.

My suggestion to only use the single fan is because based on the gear hes putting in there IMO it will move the air enough to keep things cool. Obviously theres nothing wrong with more fans.. i am just used to clients who don't want to see any fans or intakes at all.

Quote:


Really, the only thing I see wrong with your diagrams is that the forced inlet fans are unnecessary. Only the exhaust fan(s) are needed, with inlet holes (a requirement if there is no leakage from gaps around the doors). By the way, some kind of filtering over the inlet holes (like a piece of an A/C air filter) will minimize dust in the cabinet.

I agree with this. The cabinet doors should have some sort of rubber pad in the corners thats meant to keep the door from slamming into the shelving. This rubber pad creates an opening all the way around the cabinet door and IMO it should be enough.
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post #12 of 14
4/20/10 at 12:10pm
I installed a 120mm fan on top of the cabinet. The inlet for air would be the gap between the door edges and the hole from where all the cables come in the a/v cabinet.
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post #13 of 14
3/9/12 at 10:41am
Hi, I thought it would be good to put my issue in an existing thread rather than create a new one. I have some built-in cabinets with a wood top. Here's a photo:



As you can see, my components are in the middle. I usually open the glass doors to allow air circulation when I'm playing the PS3 or using the HTPC. The cable box/dvr seems to do ok even though I leave the doors closed.

So what are my options for keeping it cool? Here are some ideas that I have:

1. Cabinet ducting that exhausts air through the toe kick. Here's one system:

http://www.coolcomponents.com/Cabine...tem_p_305.html

Has anyone used this type of system?

2. Using some sort of vent fan tubing to exhaust into the basement below. Something like this:

http://www.activethermal.com/Cool-Cube.htm

3. Another idea would be to cut some holes or slots in the wood top. If I do that, are there some ways to have a cover that is very low profile? I wouldn't want a large bulge on top of the counter.

The back walls are on the exterior and have spray foam so I can't run a tube there.

I'm kind of leaning towards option #1. I know it's not ideal as venting through the top would be.
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post #14 of 14
3/28/12 at 5:12am
Looks like this area of the avsforums is pretty dead. Oh well.

I think I'm going to go with the cabinet ducting through the toe kick solution.
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