How to get/record subchannels on older t.v. with cable?

Cable providers have converter boxes or Digital Transport Adapters (DTAs) that assign digital and analog services to number locations according to their own numbering scheme.

Cable converter boxes provide recordable analog RF and composite outputs (and sometimes a S-Video output that must be paired with the white/red audio connections). The RF output is a threaded coax cable video/audio connection and the composite outputs are RCA type cable color-coded as yellow for video and white/red for audio. The entry-level DTAs often provide only a RF output.

Those are the only outputs that may be recorded by VCRs and current model DVD recorders.

Even though many recent and current consumer products have "digital" or "HD" tuners those will soon be of only limited use when cable systems scramble all but the "must carry" local stations, government and local access services, and a few other networks.

You will have to rent converter boxes or DTAs to receive most "digital" services and unscramble the encoded services.

With basic cable it is unlikely that you would be able to get many subchannels even with a new TV. My cable system, Time Warner, in Nebraska provides few if any subchannels on basic cable. Nothing will tune them if they are not present. You are probably stuck with the channels you are now receiving.

Since you need a new recorder anyway, I would try the Panasonic DMR-EZ28 DVD or Philips H2160A HDD/DVD recorder with the limited (or extended basic) cable first, and see if you can pick up anything more (if it's extended basic, you will probably need their cable box down the road anyway, but at least you'll already have the recorder).

Even if they are available in your area over clear-QAM (and most of them are here with Comcast), the reason you wouldn't be picking up any of the subchannels anyway with your old TV is that it most likely only has an analog tuner in it, therefore you'd only be able to pick up analog channels. The subchannels are digital, and those newer DVD recorders have clear-QAM (unencrypted digital cable), NTSC (analog) and ATSC (over-the-air digital) tuners in them (no VCR has ever had a clear-QAM tuner in it, and that's what you need, so forget about that even if you could find one. Good time to join the 21st century, anyway).

The Panasonic has a little better picture quality (which will be more noticable should you ever upgrade your TV to a newer, higher-definition digital one), but the Philips has a hard drive and lots of recording space, and thus is more like their DVR - except that you'll have to set the timers manually (with both), of course. Up to you which means more. The Panasonic can be found for about $175.00 online (Dell.com currently has it for that price), and the Philips is available from walmart.com for about $230.00. Those two models are the best of the DVD recorders that are available in the US now.

What's with the narrow-margin posts?

Your post refers to the Philips H2160A. That's actually the Magnavox H2160A. Recent and current Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders were designed by Philips and have been manufactured by Funai.

I own four of these outstanding 2160 Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders. Mine were manufactured in May, August and December 2008 and May 2009. I also own an earlier Magnavox 2080 manufactured in July 2007. All five of these Funai-built HDD/DVD recorders have proven themselves to have very good clear QAM and ATSC tuners.

I also own two of the earlier Funai-built Philips HDD/DVD recorders, a 3575 of August 2007 manufacture and a 3576 of February 2008 manufacture. The 3575 has never been set up for clear QAM or ATSC tuning as it’s been enslaved to a Comcast Motorola converter boxes. The 3576 was initially set up for clear QAM reception but the clear QAM tuner gave unsatisfactory performance. The 3576 was switched over to an antenna were it's ATSC performance has been good. The 3576 is also enslaved to a Comcast Motorola converter box and also records from other external sources.

I also own two Magnavox combo recorders, earlier and later versions of the ZV450MW8, one manufactured in March 2007 and the other in August 2008. Both these Funai-built recorders have very good clear QAM and ATSC tuner performance. I also owned the somewhat similar Sylvania ZV450SL8 manufactured in April 2007. The Sylvania had unsatisfactory clear QAM performance but was satisfactory for ATSC tuning. (The Sylvania was given away.)

If anything, my experience suggests that clear QAM tuner performance "issues" with some Funai-built recorders is due to "sample variations" and/or "quality control" problems rather than design defects.

I currently own fifteen fully-functional Panasonic ES and EZ recorders and eleven Funai-built recorders. Some recorders are set aside for standby use. (I also own six non-functional Panasonic parts machines.)

My five Panasonic EZ series digital tuner recorders consist of one DMR-EZ28 and four DMR-EZ17 models. The DMR-EZ28 is a decent enough (but often overpriced) DVD Recorder.

One of the EZ17 models had unsatisfactory clear QAM and ATSC performance. That recorder was used as a slave to a Comcast Motorola converter box but experienced a laser assembly failure and it is now a parts machine.

The other four Panasonic EZ series models were found to have marginally satisfactory clear QAM performance. To bypass their weak clear QAM tuners they were set up as slaves to Comcast Motorola converter boxes. Of those four EZ series recorders two of them, the one EZ28 and one EZ17, continue in daily use, one EZ17 is in a standby status and the fourth, another EZ17, experienced a laser assembly failure and is now a parts machine.

My experience is such that I am more inclined to rely on Funai-built clear QAM tuners than Panasonic clear QAM tuners.

Panasonic recorders are capable of producing outstanding picture quality at the XP, SP and LP recording modes. For my use Funai-built recorders are capable of producing outstanding picture quality at the HQ, SP and SPP recording modes and entirely satisfactory picture quality at the LP recording mode.

What's with the narrow-margin posts?

You might want to start with the Magnavox 2160A as a clear QAM tuner (watch jr.com for new stock of like-new refurbished models at $160) but sooner or later your cable provider will require that you obtain a converter box or DTA.

This is the J&R page to watch for refurbished 2160A models:

http://www.jr.com/category/video-tv/dvd/dvd-recorders/

Here is the WalMart listing for new 2160A models:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-1...Tuner/10104532

The first post in Wajo's sticky thread is the gateway to a wealth of information concerning the Magnavox 2160A and earlier 2160, 2080, 3575 and 3576 models:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post12244086

Someone just posted that they just received a refurb that was mfg in 2008, which indicates the ORIGINAL 2160, which is slightly preferred over the 2009 "A" model.

The A model has a FW bug, E19 error during DVD Finalize/Format/Erase ops, but there are TWO ways to fix or work around that bug:

1. On 4/19/10, Funai posted a FW update that fixes the E19 error, and
2. There's a simple workaround,
BOTH described here.

Here's his post... I'm waiting to hear where he got it and how much!

The Panasonic DMR-EZ28 is discussed in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1007613

Don't wait too long. The Magnavox 2160 is the only hard drive one left (new.) While I think there is a decent supply of them, they're not going to be stocked forever. DVD recorders have been disappearing like the rainforest.

TiVo with a lifetime subscription (one time fee) or a Moxi DVR. Neither are "cheap" but you can pay once and keep it for the life of the unit. That's about it for QAM, unless you want to go the PC route (again, not usually cheap, but you might already have a compatible PC that just needs the tuner and some software.)

Moxi doesn't work over the air, but TiVo does.


They can't encrypt the locals under current regulations. That COULD change, but it's probably not likely. Anything else is fair game. It depends on what your local Comcast office decides to encrypt. It's a crap shoot, but I always go by the assumption that everything sans locals will be encrypted at some point.

The two DVRs (TiVo and Moxi) can accept a cableCARD from Comcast and you'll get their encrypted channels up to the limits of your current subscription.

Well, you'll always be able to record from an external tuner to an HDD/DVD recorder though a line input.

In that event, the thing you might want to do is make sure you get a tuner from the provider that has the ability to change channels on it's own (so you can do unattended recording from more than one channel at a time). The simple, basic DTA's that they're giving free right now don't do that. But you often get one, more upscale model included with the package price when you subscribe to digital cable, anyway.

But will a cable company always give (or rent) you the CableCARD if you are only subscribing to Limited Basic?

I always thought I remembered people saying that they were able to get that, but somebody not long ago around here said that they refused him, and some other posters responded by saying "No - they won't give you that".

I was pretty disappointed to hear that myself, as I have a TiVo HD which I only use for the OTA locals, but may eventually have to use for Limited Basic somewhere down the road.

I would think that if you at least were paying a separate rental price for the card, they would, right? Or does it depend on the cable company, maybe?

That's a good question, but are there areas that have limited basic encrypted? If so, they'd be the ones to call up their cablecos and ask (academically) if they can get a card.

It's a hard drive recorder, so you'll probably always find someone who wants one if you want to sell it. Other than the one tuner and the standard def-only recording, it's a pretty versatile unit. And considering the other HDD based recording devices are at least twice the price, you can't complain too much.

No (probably not many, anyway), but that's not really what I was getting at.

Unless you have the card for the TiVo, the channels won't map correctly. I'm not even sure if you'll get the guide info. I think you might still be able to set manual timers, but I'm not even 100% sure of that, either.

With the Moxi, just from what I've gathered from the little bit that I've read the thread, I don't think that's as much of an issue, although I could be wrong there, too.

Where do you live (Zip Code?) that you can't get good reception?

Maybe post your results from "TV Fool", or similar site.

With TV Fool, they have a color coded circle graph that pops up when you put in your zip. Your location is in the center of the circle, and how strong the other channels (and their general direction) fall in the colored regions. There is also a more detailed chart that is also colored.

Green: An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels

Yellow: An attic-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above

Red: A roof-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above

Grey: These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up

Things like hills and other obstructions might make your location a bit more difficult to receive channels, depending where you are in your zip code.