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3D glasses: what a mess this is

post #1 of 28
4/3/10 at 5:27pm
Thread Starter 
Let me start by making a statment and then talking about the glasses themselves.

Open standard is not proprietary. Google it.

Open Standards create a fair, competitive market for implementations of the standard. They do not lock the customer in to a particular vendor or group.

This means there is no 3D tv for sale yet...there is Panasonic 3D tv for sale, Sony 3D tv for sale, LG 3D tv for sale, Samsung 3D tv for sale, but there is NO 3D TV FOR SALE!.
This is not being advertised. Because there is no open standard being used on all 3D tv's there is no open market so the tv's are really not open standard 3D tv's.

When there is a open standard used by all the tv companies a pair of glasses could be made by a 3rd party company it would work on all 3d tv's with no crosstalk or flicker because the standard would be that good.

What do you think about that!?
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post #2 of 28
4/3/10 at 5:39pm
I think you have forgotten about either the XpanD X103 or X104 3D glasses. The first is a Universal IR model and the X104 is All Universal; IR, DLP-Link and BlueTooth.

IMO, it is NOT up to the 3DTV CEMs to have a open standard for 3D glasses. Just that other CEMs source (3D content) equipment will work on a mix and match basis.
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post #3 of 28
4/3/10 at 6:28pm
Also there are very well defined HDMI 1.4 standards for the new 1080p 3D TVs for the 3D resolutions they must accept and those that are optional and the Samsungs, the Panasonics, the LGs, the Sonys and the upcoming Vizio allmeet this standard and I assume the upcoming Mits 2010 LCD models will also meet them.
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post #4 of 28
4/3/10 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post


What do you think about that!?

It's like saying all cell phone batteries should be the same. Makes great sense from a very limited consumer perspective. Otherwise it's mildly amusing, and will not happen.

Not all glasses are created equal. There is no point to a 'standard' that prevents a better product from making it to market. The technology and market is more complicated than you understand.
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post #5 of 28
4/4/10 at 12:53am
Thread Starter 
imo cell phones are apples and oranges different to tv.
cell phones offer different abilities, and some are even mini pc's.

A tv on the other hand is no as complicated as deciding on cell phone features you want.
For hd tv you buy a hd reciever. For hd audio you buy a audio reciever. These two examples show there is no thought to if you buy this will it work.
Glasses requiring thought from a generation with no tv or internet is asking too much, it needs to be a packag so he old people can just read "3d tv" and buy it easy as that.

I grew up with computers and surf every day looking at internet stuff, but I think these glasses are way over even my head. Lee said something about xpand glasses, I'm not sure if he meant transmission of signal to glasses or the type of 3d they can display and from which manufacturr.

I play onine ps3 games and hear people talk. Sometimes they ask about tv's and which to buy. The advice and conversation is not geek talk, it is no use trying to educate them over the mic either.
This glasses saying blue tooth, ir, name brand, cost/performance difference would not be understood by these people and they are young adults. Old people in their 60's is even worse at getting it with these glasses in 3D tv packages.

What do you think about that?
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post #6 of 28
4/4/10 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

Lee said something about xpand glasses, I'm not sure if he meant transmission of signal to glasses or the type of 3d they can display and from which manufacturr.

XpanD will be releasing 2 Universal type of 3D active shutter glasses. One will work with any 3DTV that uses IR (Infa Red) as the comm (Sony, Panasonic, LG, Samsung). The other will also be Universal IR plus DLP-Link (Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP RPTVs + FPTVs that use DLP) and BlueTooth (Vizio).

Details here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1237122
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post #7 of 28
4/4/10 at 6:36am
I never understand people's desire for TV standards beyond what we have already. You hear some claim Panasonic should stop making plasmas to make the buying decision easier, when in reality to most consumers LCD or Plasma, they can watch the same channels and discs. Active shutter or circular polarized, it doesn't really matter which you prefer, you'll still be able to watch the same programming regardless.

And saying Panny's glasses should work with Samsung's is like saying the remotes should work with any TV. It just doesn't mater, especially when companies make universal remotes.
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post #8 of 28
4/4/10 at 9:21am
I think this is a bigger problem than most people are acknowledging. Ideally there would be one set IR standard frequency for 3D glasses so that all models would have interoperability. Clearly this is not going to happen, but at the very least CEMs should open their protocols (or license them) so 3rd parties can make universal glasses. I think that would be a fair compromise.

Imagine a world where if you bought a Sony TV it would only work with a Sony receiver, and a Sony BluRay player. Even worse, it only worked with PS3. Xbox360 or Wii was not supported. Who would put up with that? I don't think the situation with 3D glasses is much different.
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post #9 of 28
4/4/10 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybereality View Post

I think this is a bigger problem than most people are acknowledging. Ideally there would be one set IR standard frequency for 3D glasses so that all models would have interoperability.

What if a company wants to use Bluetooth, or RF, or like the DLP sets has a unique method of controlling the glasses? What if these alternatives turn out be to better than IR, especially in a demanding IR environment? (If you think this is not happening as we speak, see the HDTV Technical Forum for examples of IR problems.)

A standard as you suggest would stifle creative solutions and products.

Quote:


Imagine a world where if you bought a Sony TV it would only work with a Sony receiver, and a Sony BluRay player. Even worse, it only worked with PS3. Xbox360 or Wii was not supported. Who would put up with that? I don't think the situation with 3D glasses is much different.

Then the marketplace will sort it all out. Besides, the example of XpanD coming up with a 'universal' product already addresses your concern.

Again, not all active LCD glasses are created equal, just as not all displays and sources are created equal. It's better to have options.
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post #10 of 28
4/4/10 at 12:53pm
Remote codes have been brand specific since day 1, for good reason, and the glasses are brand specific for many of the same reasons.

Universal remotes have been available since day 2, for good reason, and universal glasses are available for the same reasons.

Tempest in a teapot.
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post #11 of 28
4/4/10 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybereality View Post

... Imagine a world where if you bought a Sony TV it would only work with a Sony receiver ...

Imagine a world in which Sony made an AV receiver that wouldn't communicate properly over HDMI with a Sony projector. It happened to a friend of mine. Proprietary 3D glasses are small potatoes compared to offenses like that.
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post #12 of 28
4/9/10 at 2:21pm
This issue of proprietary glasses is not sitting in a vacuum:

Quote:


Broadcast standards for 3D TV will continue to be explored, along with efforts to standardize glasses.

"Eyewear from one TV doesn't necessarily work with other TVs," Fannon said, pointing out that with a standard, consumers could bring their glasses to a neighbor's house and view 3D on different TV brands. "We want to be sure the maximum number of people can see the content."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/...a8df3213b?pn=1
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post #13 of 28
4/9/10 at 2:31pm
No need to bring any glasses over to my house. If I invite you over for a 3D screening, I will have glasses for you.
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post #14 of 28
4/9/10 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

No need to bring any glasses over to my house. If I invite you over for a 3D screening, I will have glasses for you.

The issue becomes more significant if you want to invite a 20 strong class of 8 year olds to a birthday party and plan to show "Ferngully 3D" [or 8 'classless' 20 year olds plus dates to a SuperBowl 3D party?! . . . although with sufficient alcohol they might not notice the difference with/without glasses! . . . but the 8 year olds would. ]

Presumably this will be an issue of some concern for 'sports bars'...?!
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post #15 of 28
4/9/10 at 6:13pm
They did a 3Dtv rollout in several bars in the UK. They use the LG system though that use polarized glasses that cost a few quarters.

So Id imagine if sports bars here wanted 3D, they'll probably have to pass on shutter glasses until a polarized solution comes along.
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post #16 of 28
4/12/10 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

The issue becomes more significant if you want to invite a 20 strong class of 8 year olds to a birthday party and plan to show "Ferngully 3D" [or 8 'classless' 20 year olds plus dates to a SuperBowl 3D party?! . . . although with sufficient alcohol they might not notice the difference with/without glasses! . . . but the 8 year olds would. ]

Presumably this will be an issue of some concern for 'sports bars'...?!


Aamazing theater you have there.... I can only squeeze 12 in mine, and I think I only had more than 10 twice in nearly 5 years now. Maybe 3D will bring them out in hoards though?
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post #17 of 28
4/12/10 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

XpanD will be releasing 2 Universal type of 3D active shutter glasses. One will work with any 3DTV that uses IR (Infa Red) as the comm (Sony, Panasonic, LG, Samsung). The other will also be Universal IR plus DLP-Link (Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP RPTVs + FPTVs that use DLP) and BlueTooth (Vizio).

Details here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1237122

And DLP owners don't have to wait for the X104s, they can use the X103s with an IR emitter (cost ~$30).
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post #18 of 28
4/12/10 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by taz291819 View Post

And DLP owners don't have to wait for the X104s, they can use the X103s with an IR emitter (cost ~$30).

Really? I figured $150 -$200 minimum. Not including the IR emitter. I hope you're right.
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post #19 of 28
4/12/10 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post

Really? I figured $150 -$200 minimum. Not including the IR emitter. I hope you're right.

I think its just the IR emitter that is approx. $30 while all of the Xpand 3D glasses sell for over $100 per pair and their X103 lists for $160/pair. There are less expensive alternatives for use with 3D DLP rear projection TVs, but Xpand are generally considered the best.
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post #20 of 28
4/12/10 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Again, not all active LCD glasses are created equal, just as not all displays and sources are created equal. It's better to have options.

That is the whole point I am getting at. With the current system there are no choices. You buy a Panasonic HDTV you are forced to buy Panasonic glasses. Buy a Samsung TV, it only works with Samsung glasses. Lot of options there...
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post #21 of 28
4/12/10 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybereality View Post

That is the whole point I am getting at. With the current system there are no choices. You buy a Panasonic HDTV you are forced to buy Panasonic glasses. Buy a Samsung TV, it only works with Samsung glasses. Lot of options there...

That is being done intentionally by the CEMs. But XpanD will be another option for the new FPD 3DTVs - their X103 series.

And potentially Bit Cauldron for Sony 3D ready 3DTVs (HX900 series) and any other models/manufacturers that have a VESA port.
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post #22 of 28
4/13/10 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybereality View Post

That is the whole point I am getting at. With the current system there are no choices. You buy a Panasonic HDTV you are forced to buy Panasonic glasses. Buy a Samsung TV, it only works with Samsung glasses.

I believe this may only be true if you must use the internal emitter on the 3DTV.

If the 3DTV has a '3D Port' VESA, like many (most, all?) of the DLP RPTVs have, you should be able to use any active stereo glasses and their associated emitter.

At some point relatively soon, I think all glasses manufacturers will offer universal products.
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post #23 of 28
4/13/10 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post

Really? I figured $150 -$200 minimum. Not including the IR emitter. I hope you're right.

Sorry, the $30 was for the emitter, not the glasses.
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post #24 of 28
4/17/10 at 1:02am
I've just found out the glasses require batteries, why? I went to the movies the other day and had a pair of real D glasses and they were not battery operated. Why can't I use those?
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post #25 of 28
4/17/10 at 3:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I've just found out the glasses require batteries, why? I went to the movies the other day and had a pair of real D glasses and they were not battery operated. Why can't I use those?

RealD using passive polarization for their 3D presentation. Consumer 3D is being based on active (battery) shutter glasses and Frame Sequential 3D presentation.
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post #26 of 28
4/17/10 at 3:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

RealD using passive polarization for their 3D presentation. Consumer 3D is being based on active (battery) shutter glasses and Frame Sequential 3D presentation.

I wonder why they wouldn't go passive? Thanks btw Lee for that explanation.
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post #27 of 28
4/17/10 at 5:56am
Passive would make the cost prohibitive. It's less expensive to make shutter glasses (and pass these costs to consumers that want it) than it is to make the display with polarization.
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post #28 of 28
4/17/10 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I wonder why they wouldn't go passive? Thanks btw Lee for that explanation.

Currently, to do passive on a flat panel display, you only get Half HD resolution per eye versus using active and getting Full HD per eye - from 3D BD.
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