FAQ for the 3D HTPC - Page 4

yes but sony announced a firmware patch for the ps3 that they said converted it to 3D so does it also convert the 1.3 to 1.4 output?

Are you replying to the following post?

PS3 with firmware update 3.50 supports all four mandatory HDMI 1.4a 3D video formats.

The reason why THD/DTS-HD is limited to core DD/DTS in PS3 3D mode has nothing to do with HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4. It is likely to be that PS3 lacks enough hardware resources (or has not been tweaked enough) to decode both MVC and THD/DTS-HD at the same time. Yes, THD/DTS-HD must be decoded internally to search for watermarks by the AACS requirement even when it is bitstreamed over HDMI. Bitstreaming HD audio may be possible with a future firmware update.

Thanks 8:13

That makes it understandable. 1.3 has good bandwidth for regular 1080p and HD audio, OR 3D 1080p and regular audio, but not both.

So the 430 card that comes out next week is supposedly the lowest cost NVidia that has HDMI 1.4, I hear... Hope they make a low profile version, or I may just have to do a motherboard swap after all...

Do the GTX 460's have HDMI 1.4?
I picked up a Zotac 768MB GTX 460 from Newegg on the cheap in hopes of getting 3D Blu-ray working. Also received the Pioneer VSX-1120-K receiver which has been installed and working nicely. Tonight I'll be adding a small SSD for the OS and the 460 card in hopes that I'll be able to watch a 3D Blu-ray maybe by midnight or 1am tonight.

Yes, it has full HDMI 1.4a support because it is based on the GF104 silicon from nVidia (unlike the GF100 based GTX465 and higher models which are not true HDMI 1.4a due to lack of HD audio bitstreaming, but those can support some sort of crippled 3D experience too)..

Thanks Jakmal. So I'm guessing 3D Blu-ray is going to work once I'm done with the rebuild tonight. My daughter will be happy. Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs will be the test Blu-ray.

Great ! Make sure your nV drivers are the latest R260 variety, and you have the proper PowerDVD version to handle the 3D stuff

Well, bandwidth-wise, HDMI 1.3 is identical with HDMI 1.4 (version comparison). That is, HDMI 1.3 already has enough bandwidth for all four mandatory HDMI 1.4a 3D video formats and 8 ch/192 kHz/24 bit LPCM (let alone TrueHD/DTS-HD bitstreams) simultaneously.

As for PS3, limiting HD audio to core DD/DTS bitstreaming is due to an internal memory issue right now (this post or an interview with PS3 developers). 8:13's claim, "On the PS3 the HD audio is blocked while playing 3D blu ray due to the HDMI being only 1.3", is wrong. PS3 developers suggest that a future firmware upgrade *could* make Blu-ray 3D + HD audio bitstreaming possible.

As for GeForce GT 240 (and 210, 220, 480, 470, 465), his claim "the 240 only having HDMI 1.3 is also limited" is totally perplexing at best. These cards do not support HD audio bitstreaming from the beginning even for 2D video simply because of HDMI transmitter limitation and/or the lack of PAP.


I wonder where 8:13 came up with this strange theory.

Spec-wise, both HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 have the same bandwidth (340 MHz clock), but in reality, it is very difficult to clock the HDMI controller at 340 MHz in an ASIC. Usually, the HDMI controller design is constrained to operate at lower frequency.. so even chips which claim HDMI 1.4a might not run their controllers at 340 MHz. I think this is probably the issue with the PS3 (HDMI controller being clocked lower resulting in lesser than available bandwidth as per spec). I am not sure just firmware updates could increase the operating frequency of the HDMI controller. This is just conjecture, but I think we might need a new chip in the PS3 to be proper HDMI 1.4a compliant.

Well, PS3 developers explained the main reasons for limiting HD audio to DD/DTS in an entirely different way, whatever you (or 8:13 or whoever) think. (I am sorry the interview is Japanese as the 3D developers are Japanese.)


It looks like they are not so optimistic about implementing HD audio bitstreaming by a firmware upgrade (need to tweak memory and SPU further). It is under development anyway.


This is correct, but: Actually the video bandwidth necessary for the mandatory HDMI 1.4a 3D video formats is not so different from that of HDMI 1.3 2D video formats.

- Frame Packing 1080p@24: 1920 x (1080+1080+45 [Active space]) x 24Hz = 101.6MHz, 101.6MHz x 24 bit x 10/8 [overhead]= 3.04 Gb/s
- Frame Packing 720p@60: 1280 x (720+720+30 [Active space]) x 60Hz = 112.9Hz, 112.9Hz x 24 bit x 10/8 [overhead] = 3.39 Gb/s
- Side-by-Side (Half) 1080i@60: (960+960) x 540 x 60Hz = 62.2MHz, 62.2MHz x 24 bit x 10/8 [overhead] = 1.87 Gb/s
- Top-and-Bottom 720p@60: 1280 x (360+360) x 60Hz = 55.3MHz, 55.3MHz x 24 bit x 10/8 [overhead] = 1.66 Gb/s
- Top-and-Bottom 1080p@24: 1920 x (540+540) x 24Hz = 40.8MHz, 49.8MHz x 24 bit x 10/8 [overhead] = 1.49 Gb/s.

Compare:

- 2D 1080p@60: 1920 x 1080 x 60Hz = 124.4MHz, 124.4MHz x 24 bit x 10/8 [overhead] = 3.73Gb/s.

The resolution of Frame Packing 1080p is twice, but the refresh rate is only 23.976Hz/24Hz.

And audio is nothing compared with video, ~0.04 Gb/s (multichannel LPCM). Further audio data are carried in the Data Island Period (Hblank and Vblank), so that audio bandwidth is guaranteed. Seeking the reason for non-HD audio bitstreaming in the bandwidth argument of HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 sounds ridiculous for me (and is wrong according to the developers [although they did not deny it explicitly]).

I do have what should be the proper version of PowerDVD 10 but can you point me in the direction of the driver download. I only see 258 on the NVIDIA site.

Nevermind. I found them in the Beta section.

Any HDMI 1.3 transmitter chip can transmit all of the HDMI 1.4a mandatory formats including double packed buffer 3D format. I believe Sony when they say they did not have enough firmware or memory buffer space remainging in the PS3 after implemnting the video when playing of 3D BR disks to also implement full HD audio.

That's exactly what I found in the interview. Where did you find it? (Never mind, you found it in my posts, right? )

HD audio bitstreaming actually involves decoding HD audio to LPCM and doing more tasks inside an AACS-compliant player. For PS3, decoding MVC and doing these tasks simultaneously is not easy (in particular memory-wise, however powerfull Cell is).

Actually this computation doesn't take into account Vertical Blanking and Horizontal Blanking. The possible bandwidth values are slightly greater and grouped in only two possible values:

2,23Gbps/74,25Mhz: 1280x720p@50/60, 1920x1080i@50/60, 1920x1080p@24

4,45Gbps/148,5Mhz: 1920x1080p@50/60, 1280x720p@50/60 Frame packing (3D games), 1920x1080p@24 Frame packing (Blu-Ray 3D)

but the conclusion is correct: HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 have the same bandwidth and this is sufficient for 3D formats, by far sufficient, as chips (both 1.3 and 1.4) have a 220MHz bandwidth.

Yes, I deliberately excluded Vblank and Hblank because I wanted to calculate the video bandwidth in Gb/s (Vblank and Hblank constitute the Data Island Period, that does not carry video data, but audio and auxiliary data). Pxel clock rate = TMDS clock rate in 24 bit mode/TMDS bit rate in 24 bit mode is:

148.5MHz/4.45Gbps Group

- 3D Frame Packing 1080p@24: (1920+830 [Hblank] x (1080+1080+45 [Active space]+45 [Vblank]) x 24Hz = 148.50MHz, 148.50MHz x 30bit = 4.45Gb/s.
- 3D Frame Packing 720p@60: (1280+370 [Hblank] x (720+720+30 [Active space]+30 [Vblank]) x 24Hz = 148.50MHz, 148.50MHz x 30bit = 4.45Gb/s.
- 2D 1080p@60: (1920+280 [Hblank] x (1080+45 [Vblank]) x 60Hz = 148.50MHz, 148.50MHz x 30bit = 4.45Gb/s.

74.25MHz/2.23Gbps Group (half of 148.5MHz/4.45Gbps)

- 3D Side-by-Side (Half) 1080i@60: (960+960+280 [Hblank]) x (540+[22 +23 ]/2) x 60Hz = 74.25MHz, 74.25MHz x 30bit = 2.23 Gb/s.
- 3D Top-and-Bottom 1080p@24: (1920+830 [Hblank]) x (540+540+45 [Vblank]) x 24Hz = 74.25MHz, 74.25MHz x 30bit = 2.23 Gb/s.
- 3D Top-and-Bottom 720p@60: (1280+370 [Hblank]) x (360+360+30 [Vblank]) x 24Hz = 74.25MHz, 74.25MHz x 30bit = 2.23 Gb/s.
- 2D 1080i@60: (1920+280 [Hblank]) x (540+[22 +23 ]/2) x 60Hz = 74.25MHz, 74.25MHz x 30bit = 2.23 Gb/s.
- 2D 1080p@24: (1920+830 [Hblank] x (1080+45 [Vblank]) x 24Hz = 74.25MHz, 74.25MHz x 30bit = 2.23 Gb/s.
- 2D 720p@60: (1280+370 [Hblank]) x (360+360+30 [Vblank]) x 24Hz = 74.25MHz, 74.25MHz x 30bit = 2.23 Gb/s.

where

- 30 bit = 8 bit x 10bit/8bit [overhead] x 3 ch for video, 4 bit x 10bit/4bit [overhead] x 3 ch for audio

For Deep Color, the TMDS clock rate is obtained by multiplying the pixel clock rate by the ratio:

- 24 bit mode: 1
- 30 bit mode: 1.25
- 36 bit mode: 1.5
- 48 bit mode: 2.0


Will you elaborate on this point? The max clock rate of HDMI 1.3/1.4 is 340MHz, isn't it? I found this post:

1080p 120Hz frame sequential is supported only by dual-link DVI and VGA. I have been wondering why. So the actual HDMI chips are limited to a lower bandwidth, like 220MHz?

I found this:


So the actual clock rate supported by HDMI chips is much lower than the max clock rate 340MHz (but much higher than the bandwidth for 3D). 340MHz is not the mandatory bandwidth to qualify the chip for HDMI 1.3/1.4?

Yes, the max bandwidth of the HDMI standard is 340MHz, but AFAIK chips with bandwidth greater than 225Mhz are not available today.

All formats, 2D and 3D, are well within the 225Mhz limit, except 1080p@120Hz, which requires 297Mhz, within the standard limit, but beyond the limit of today chips.

This is the reason why 1080p@120Hz requires a dual link DVI or VGA and why PS3, with its HDMI-only ouput, can't support 3D games Full HD at 60Hz per eye.

Not just PS3, but the HDMI 1.4a Primary 3D Video Format Timings (= mandatory) excludes Frame packing 1080p@60, perhaps for this practical reason. But the Secondary 3D Video Format Timings includes this.

Hello to all:

I really need help here. I'm at the point of throwing my equipment at the wall....lol. I have read the above posts and am confused with alot of the terms. So I decided to post up what I'm running and hope someone can help me.

I have a pjd-6531w 3D projector. It is running through ATI Sapphire 5770 1GB DDR5 graphics card which gets run by a 2.4 ghz quad core 8GB ram gateway pc. Output goes through a 3D capable pioneer 1020k receiver which finally feeds into the 3D projector.

To run the 3D i have my computer running on 1280 X 720 to get the 120hz even though when you check on the projector itself its says horizontal is at 92hz and vertical at 120hz. I am also using pgd-150 glasses, so I switched the projector to dlp link rather then 3D vision which I believe is for the Nvidia root. The picture output on my screen is very light in 3D mode, visible but very washed out. Once I turn on my 3D glassed and put them on, the picture automatically looks darker and more redefined. Actually looks great as a 2D mode but don't really notice any 3D.

I've spoke with viewsonic several times and after many frustrating conversations with people who read customer services response booklets instead of actually knowing the product, I found a rep who was sort of helpful. He mentioned that the Light image was due to the fact that two images were being displayed at the same time. Now I have seen normal 3d displays where you see that two images are being portrayed but its not the same.

If anyone has opinion on something i'm doing wrong, please help me out. Any help would be gladly appreciated. I'm mainly want to use the 3D for movies.....and if possible my XBOX 360. Thanks.

What is the 3D content source you are trying to watch on your PJ?
The Viewsonic glases only work with DLP-LINK.
Have you tried reversing the eye sync using the switch built into the glases?
3D glases reduce the bightness by 10-40% you have to have your brightness set a lot higher when using them.
Suggest you check out one or more of the AVS 3D content forums instead of using this forum.

walford: "What is the 3D content source you are trying to watch on your PJ?
The Viewsonic glases only work with DLP-LINK.
Have you tried reversing the eye sync using the switch built into the glases?
3D glases reduce the bightness by 10-40% you have to have your brightness set a lot higher when using them.
Suggest you check out one or more of the AVS 3D content forums instead of using this forum."

Thank you for the advise. I will check out the other forums but doesn't the pjd-6531w convert 2d into 3d? Most of my content is 2d.

A 720p@120Hz DLP 3D projector (such as PJD6531w) + DLP-Link glasses (such as PGD-150) works only with HQFS format files/DVDs with a 3D player such as Stereoscopic Player.

Every attempt to make them work with PowerDVD/TMT will fail simply because CyberLink/ArcSoft has not yet implemented the support for 720p@120 DLP 3D projector + DLP-Link glasses.

2D-3D conversion requires a software player such as PowerDVD 10 or TMT3 with 3D plugin (neither works with your system) or Stereoscopic Player with 3Dfier plugin (it works with your system).

If you want to use PowerDVD/TMT, then GeForce GT 430 (or GTS 450 or GTX 460)+NVIDIA 3D Vision Kit (3D glasses and a USB IR emitter) is the way to go.

Sorry I still can't get one simple thing.
Is it possible to watch 3D Blu-ray with TMT or Cyberlink If I have one of the listed GPUs which supports HDMI 1.4a and 3D TV with its own glasses (like Sony)?

Renethex: "A 720p@120Hz DLP 3D projector (such as PJD6531w) + DLP-Link glasses (such as PGD-150) works only with HQFS format files/DVDs with a 3D player such as Stereoscopic Player.
Every attempt to make them work with PowerDVD/TMT will fail simply because CyberLink/ArcSoft has not yet implemented the support for 720p@120 DLP 3D projector + DLP-Link glasses.
2D-3D conversion requires a software player such as PowerDVD 10 or TMT3 with 3D plugin (neither works with your system) or Stereoscopic Player with 3Dfier plugin (it works with your system).
If you want to use PowerDVD/TMT, then GeForce GT 430 (or GTS 450 or GTX 460)+NVIDIA 3D Vision Kit (3D glasses and a USB IR emitter) is the way to go."


Thank you for the advise. Now i'm going to download stereoscopic player, but as for 3Dfier plug in, could you recommend one that last longer? Even a paid service I would appreciate it. Thanks.

PowerDVD: yes.

TriDef Media Player?

What do you mean by "last longer"? None of them are free. If you purchase them, you can use them without limitation.

Maybe I missed where someone mentioned it in this thread already but Toshiba has announce a 3D TV that doesn't need glasses:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-revi...thout-glasses/

I wish they were less expensive.

- 20GL1 20" 720p: 240000 Yen = $2,930
- 12GL1 12" 350p: 120000 Yen = $1,465

A great news for you:

Confirmed fix for ATI 5000 series 120hz page flipped 3d output

What you need are:

- A new beta ATI driver (8.78 RC1; official release in November?)
- TMT3 with 3D plugin (BR 3D & 2D-3D conversion)

Me too. I won't be getting into home 3D until there is a cheaper method. Personally, I have no interest in overpriced shutter glasses. Either an inexpensive eyewear-less setup or an inexpensive circular polarized setup (Real3D) will be what wins me over.