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OTA signal not strong enough - set-up help needed!

post #1 of 65
4/5/10 at 9:57am
Thread Starter 
We are nearing the end of our discounted rate with ATT and I am not going with another provider except as a last resort.

I ordered an antenna from monoprice.com per the suggestions on antennaweb.org. I am getting a fine quality signal (100% according to my Eyetv), but I can only get around 50% on my signal strength.

I have done some research and found that there are both pre-amplifiers and boosters that can help with strengthening your signal, but I am not sure which one to employ.

I have the antenna mounted on the highest point of my house, pointing the correct direction. There is a small 5v powering device that I run the RG6 coax into and then connect that to my long cable run (30 feet or so) and then into a Motorola 15db booster and then into a splitter, which goes to my TV and computer respectively.

While I can watch fine on my computer with the EyeTV, I can't get a consistent signal on my main TV (Samsung 32" LCD). I am thinking that a pre-amplifier will boost the signal strength enough, but hate to try that only to find out I need a higher power booster. Does anyone want to offer me some suggestions before I spend more $$? Much appreciated!!
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post #2 of 65
4/5/10 at 10:22am
Generally, adding an amp to an already amplifed antenna often makes reception worse, not better. You may need a more suitable antenna.

Please post the TVFool results for your address back in this thread. Your address will not display on the results page.
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post #3 of 65
4/5/10 at 10:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Generally, adding an amp to an already amplifed antenna often makes reception worse, not better. You may need a more suitable antenna.

Please post the TVFool results for your address back in this thread. Your address will not display on the results page.

Here's my TVfool results - http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c80ac40fc802
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post #4 of 65
4/5/10 at 10:45am
Digital TV tuners unlike an analog TV tuner will not receive any content it the signal is either too strong or too weak. Since most digital tuners in TV sets are more sensitive then those in HDTV tuner cards so I suspect that the signal going to your TV is too strong and not to weak.
In any case if the signal to the TV is not strong enough or has too low of a signal to noise ratio try switching the cables on the splitter outputs or bypassing the splitter all together as a test for getting a better signal to the TV.
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post #5 of 65
4/5/10 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Digital TV tuners unlike an analog TV tuner will not receive any content it the signal is either too strong or too weak. Since most digital tuners in TV sets are more sensitive then those in HDTV tuner cards so I suspect that the signal going to your TV is too strong and not to weak.
In any case if the signal to the TV is not strong enough or has too low of a signal to noise ratio try switching the cables on the splitter outputs or bypassing the splitter all together as a test for getting a better signal to the TV.

So, the EyeTv for my Mac likely has a less sensitive tuner than my TV and therefore by boosting the signal, I make it worse for the TV and better for the EyeTV? Please confirm if I am understanding correctly. Also, maybe throw some knowledge my way b/c I don't know that I really am grasping this signal to noise ratio thing.

I have tried direct to the tv without the splitter and didn't have any luck, but I don't know that I have tried switching the cables around on the splitter b/c I thought the output would be identical for each splitter output.

I will try:
  • Switching the cables from the splitter outut
  • Taking the splitter out altogether
  • Both of the above with and without the motorola booster

Did I miss anything?
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post #6 of 65
4/5/10 at 11:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Generally, adding an amp to an already amplifed antenna often makes reception worse, not better. You may need a more suitable antenna.

Please post the TVFool results for your address back in this thread. Your address will not display on the results page.

I would like to avoid some huge monsterous directional thing, if that is what you are referring to.
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post #7 of 65
4/5/10 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndurantz View Post

I would like to avoid some huge monsterous directional thing, if that is what you are referring to.

Try this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= Aim it at 80 degrees and hope that the stations aimed to the side still come in.

Eliminate all amplifiers and powered splitters. The antenna might even work in the attic.
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post #8 of 65
4/5/10 at 12:20pm
Ditto on TowerGuy's antenna suggestion. It should work well in your situation. It's also a small antenna and can be spray painted a flat color to blend in with whatever's behind it.
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post #9 of 65
4/5/10 at 12:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post

Try this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= Aim it at 80 degrees and hope that the stations aimed to the side still come in.

Eliminate all amplifiers and powered splitters. The antenna might even work in the attic.

Thanks! That doesn't look too huge, so if I can get my current one to work, I will try that.
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post #10 of 65
4/5/10 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndurantz View Post

Thanks! That doesn't look too huge, so if I can get my current one to work, I will try that.

Your current antenna is doomed. You are too close to the transmitters to use any amplification whatsoever.
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post #11 of 65
4/5/10 at 1:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post

Your current antenna is doomed. You are too close to the transmitters to use any amplification whatsoever.

So, I need a NON-amplified antenna and the one I have with it's 20db of amplification is doing what exactly? Over-amplifying? If you can help me understand, that would be great.
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post #12 of 65
4/5/10 at 2:08pm
It's likely either overloading one of your tuners or adding more NOISE to the signal than the lesser tuner can deal with.

The unamp'd antenna Tower Guy recommended, aimed slightly to the left of due East, should work well.
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post #13 of 65
4/5/10 at 2:15pm
You are close enough to the antennas that a paper clip should work.
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post #14 of 65
4/5/10 at 2:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBri99 View Post

You are close enough to the antennas that a paper clip should work.

Thanks. I will try that and see how that works
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post #15 of 65
4/5/10 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

It's likely either overloading one of your tuners or adding more NOISE to the signal than the lesser tuner can deal with.

The unamp'd antenna Tower Guy recommended, aimed slightly to the left of due East, should work well.

Do I need to mount this on the outside of my house or would mounting it on the inside of the attic work since I am so close to the sources? All that would be between the antenna and the sources is wood shingles and plywood (no brick or metal).
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post #16 of 65
4/5/10 at 3:11pm
As Tower Guy said, it may work just fine in the attic. If so, that's great, because it's out of the weather and you don't have to ground it. An easy way to mount it in the attic is to hang a broom handle or other handy pole down from the roof rafters and clamp the antenna to it, with the clamp that's included.
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post #17 of 65
4/6/10 at 1:06am
A $10 pair of rabbit ears is all you need since you are so close to the towers.
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post #18 of 65
4/6/10 at 1:16am
This Radio Shack antenna is often recommended here as a starting point for experimentation because it's cheap, readily available, and its UHF loop is slightly larger than most other similar antennas which makes it more suitable for the lower range of channels that digital TV "lives" in (only up to ch 51 instead of through ch 69):

Budget TV Antenna (15-1874)

You don't have any VHF stations nearby, so don't bother screwing in the "rabbit ears" which are for VHF. Use the UHF loop by itself.
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post #19 of 65
4/6/10 at 4:43am
@jtbell, the RS antenna would likely work, although the OP might need one for each TV/tuner.
Leaving the dipole rods off is good, too, since there are no VHF channels. All that's needed is the loop.

It's quite possible though, that this loop antenna placed in the attic and split to two tuners, would be all that's needed. The signals are extremely strong, per the TVFool results.

The antenna could be easily returned if it doesn't work.
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post #20 of 65
4/6/10 at 6:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

The antenna could be easily returned if it doesn't work.

Is it ever worth anyone's time and effort to return a ten dollar item when gas costs $3.00 a gallon and their time is worth anything at all?
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post #21 of 65
4/6/10 at 6:08am
That antenna you currently have looks like a re-branded Philips, whose model number I forget.

If so, the photos will often mislead you. In the Netherlands (where Philips is headquartered), they use both vertical and horizontal polarization, depending on the station's transmitting power. In the US, we use horizontal polarization, so that antenna needs to turn horizontally....lying flat, like an airplane wing. The edge where the connector is, is the front (think of the connector just continuing inside, as a wire or rod...but it has a small amplifier right inside).

The opposite edge has a passive element, probably a metal tape, and is slightly longer than the front element, making it the "reflector", or rear element.
So, the edge closest to the connector is the "front" and needs to be horizontal and facing the transmitters.
The antenna is designed for UHF frequencies, and the cable itself acts as the VHF element, so VHF reception is kind of unpredictable.

My experience is, this antenna is not a good idea if you are near the stations, and especially bad if near any FM transmitters (which will greatly overload the built-in amplifier).
It might be OK in the near suburbs, IF IT'S INSTALLED right.

Your set's "Signal Strength" meter is actually showing a quasi-"Signal Quality" reading, not actual strength. So, it may be indicating that the antenna is oriented wrong, and is getting very bad multi-path. Some sets, and some computer tuners, handle multi-path better than others. So, that would be the big difference.
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post #22 of 65
4/6/10 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

Is it ever worth anyone's time and effort to return a ten dollar item when gas costs $3.00 a gallon and their time is worth anything at all?

I don't make special trips to return something unless it's urgent. I return it the next time it's convenient and the store is on my way. I could get a refund at our local RS in just a few minutes, so yes, it would be worth my time to get a refund. YMMV
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post #23 of 65
4/6/10 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post

Try this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= Aim it at 80 degrees and hope that the stations aimed to the side still come in.

Eliminate all amplifiers and powered splitters. The antenna might even work in the attic.

$22 plus $13 shipping for something one could make for about $5-$10
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post #24 of 65
4/6/10 at 7:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi Master View Post

A $10 pair of rabbit ears is all you need since you are so close to the towers.

I tried the one from radio shack and that is when the intermittent signal began. I was also using a "rabbit ears" on my Mac w/EyeTV upstairs and while I would get a decent signal, the picture would freeze all the time.

I see all these comments on other sites that with OTA "You either get the channel or you don't." I am not finding that to be the case. The signal will come in super strong and then go to nothing in the blink of an eye and continue that cycle every 30 seconds or so. Maybe I am not describing things correctly, but that seems to be intermittent to me!

I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that I needed a better antenna, mounted higher would solve things. It did for my Mac Mini/EyeTV set-up (great picture on all channels and no freezing), but not for my TV, but then we already know that
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post #25 of 65
4/6/10 at 7:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

@jtbell, the RS antenna would likely work, although the OP might need one for each TV/tuner.
Leaving the dipole rods off is good, too, since there are no VHF channels. All that's needed is the loop.

It's quite possible though, that this loop antenna placed in the attic and split to two tuners, would be all that's needed. The signals are extremely strong, per the TVFool results.

The antenna could be easily returned if it doesn't work.

I am not sure the dipole rods are removable on the set-top antenna I have, but I will give this a shot tonight and see what happens.
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post #26 of 65
4/6/10 at 7:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

$22 plus $13 shipping for something one could make for about $5-$10

I don't have the time to devote to making an antenna. Heck - the few hour process of installing the other antenna and running the cable was about all I could spare on a Saturday. Little kids are great IMO but time to work on projects, etc are scarce to say the least!
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post #27 of 65
4/6/10 at 7:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

That antenna you currently have looks like a re-branded Philips, whose model number I forget.

If so, the photos will often mislead you. In the Netherlands (where Philips is headquartered), they use both vertical and horizontal polarization, depending on the station's transmitting power. In the US, we use horizontal polarization, so that antenna needs to turn horizontally....lying flat, like an airplane wing. The edge where the connector is, is the front (think of the connector just continuing inside, as a wire or rod...but it has a small amplifier right inside).

The opposite edge has a passive element, probably a metal tape, and is slightly longer than the front element, making it the "reflector", or rear element.
So, the edge closest to the connector is the "front" and needs to be horizontal and facing the transmitters.
The antenna is designed for UHF frequencies, and the cable itself acts as the VHF element, so VHF reception is kind of unpredictable.

My experience is, this antenna is not a good idea if you are near the stations, and especially bad if near any FM transmitters (which will greatly overload the built-in amplifier).
It might be OK in the near suburbs, IF IT'S INSTALLED right.

Your set's "Signal Strength" meter is actually showing a quasi-"Signal Quality" reading, not actual strength. So, it may be indicating that the antenna is oriented wrong, and is getting very bad multi-path. Some sets, and some computer tuners, handle multi-path better than others. So, that would be the big difference.

I will try messing around with the orientation prior to uninstalling and returning the item.
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post #28 of 65
4/6/10 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndurantz View Post

I am not sure the dipole rods are removable on the set-top antenna I have, but I will give this a shot tonight and see what happens.

The specific RS model which often works well (previously linked to) definitely has removable dipoles. It comes unassembled and the rods can be left off.
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post #29 of 65
4/6/10 at 7:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

The specific RS model which often works well (previously linked to) definitely has removable dipoles. It comes unassembled and the rods can be left off.

Which I can't take back because it has been too long since I purchased it. It is the one pictured on the radio shack homepage as an example indoor antenna
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post #30 of 65
4/6/10 at 7:57am
Wrong antenna.

See: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077
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