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The Official Samsung PNxxC6500, PNxxC7000, and PNxxC8000 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 5

post #121 of 7930
I'm so paranoid now.. I know black level isnt everything but after seeing that picture of the Pio/Panny/Sony OLED black levels i dont want them to look like the grey black lol... Do you guys think i should keep in my order..

I'm probably thinking way to into it.. i know no matter what i get its going to be amazing, especially coming from the tv i have now, i'll never know the difference.
post #122 of 7930
filters, if im correct, don't help black levels. they just help with glare and reflections in brightly lit rooms i think.
post #123 of 7930
I wonder if the c-models look any better than the B-models. Hm.
post #124 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

filters, if im correct, don't help black levels. they just help with glare and reflections in brightly lit rooms i think.

They also help PERCEIVED black level in brightly lit rooms.
post #125 of 7930
any buzzing issues with the Sammy?
post #126 of 7930
I have the pn50c8000. I don't have a lot of experience with other plasmas, but I did have a b8000 LED and c7000 LED. This picture on the plasma is the best looking picture I've ever seen on a TV. The colors seem more natural than the LED's and is incredibly clear.

The blacks are not black black. The bezel doesn't disappear when watching at night. However, I don't notice an issue with the black level when watching it. I think the picture looks great, with nice looking black levels in the picture, just the bars at the top and bottom are visible rather than disappearing.

The brighter blacks has nothing to do with 3D. When you go into 3D mode, the entire picture including blacks get brighter (increased gamma?).

The real black filter is like the AR filter on the Panasonics. It cuts down on reflections quite well. The reflections seem to be much less to me than the LED sets. I couldn't tell you though if its as good as the Panasonics.

If you've ordered this TV, don't regret it. It's extremely nice.
post #127 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirbrillo View Post

any buzzing issues with the Sammy?

This is the one complain I have with the c8000. I head a buzzing sound from 8+ feet away. I can hear it during normal viewing unless their is some constant noise in the program. Its audible during moments of calm and talking.

This is annoying to me, but I may be overly sensitive to it. My wife can hear it but it doesn't bother her. This the exact same sound as the Panasonic VT20 I listened to at Best Buy the other day, but on that one I could only hear it if I put my head behind the set.

I posted a video of it on another thread. One person commented they could hear it, several others said they couldn't.
post #128 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^ If the added features are not needed, save your cash. I bet there will be no picture value added. Why wait for a C8000 when a C7000 can be bought now?

For me the major reason to spend the 300 bucks was not only the 96hz mode, but more importantly the fact that it has 3 fully adjustable presets instead of just 1 (movie, custom 1, and custom 2.)

This way you can have daytime and night time viewing settings, which is pretty darn useful if you ask me.

If you're a little less discerning and plan to pretty much just use it "out of the box" the C7000 is probably fine for most folks, though. I'd imagine it's the same panel which means the PQ is identical.
post #129 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Black level, measured with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV, measured .033 fL.

With all due respect, that can't possibly be accurate. A black level of .033 FtL would make this set about 3x worse than Samsung's midrange 2009 plasmas. And it would look really, really bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The TC-P42G25 was at .016 and right next to the samsung PN50C7000.

That also seems impossible; the 2009 g10 was measured at like .008 ft/L, no?

How can all of these sets be significantly worse in black level than last year's models?
post #130 of 7930
Thread Starter 
^^^ Your first quote is not from me. That was posted by Chad.

--The second quote was a guess and I was wrong. It was much lower for the Panasonic at 0.0083. I did fix that post.
post #131 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

With all due respect, that can't possibly be accurate. A black level of .033 FtL would make this set about 3x worse than Samsung's midrange 2009 plasmas. And it would look really, really bad.

Yeah something doesn't add up here. Either the measurements are wrong (unlikely) or maybe the new Samsungs need to be broken in before they settle on their final black level.
post #132 of 7930
i was planning on purchasing a c7000 plasma this week. decided to do some research anyway and came across this forum. correct me if i'm wrong, is someone saying that the b650 plasma, that i forced myself not to buy, because i was hoping for a 2010 model that had better blacks, thin and all, somehow is far better than a 2010 model? if the black level of the c7000 is .033? what was last years level at? i've waited just to spend more money on a c7000 or c8000 just for thinness and 3d. forget that. i'm not waiting anymore. i'll just pick up an older model or a cheap lg 550. samsung really disappointed. what a waste!
post #133 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

With all due respect, that can't possibly be accurate. A black level of .033 FtL would make this set about 3x worse than Samsung's midrange 2009 plasmas. And it would look really, really bad.

How can all of these sets be significantly worse in black level than last year's models?

You know, now that you mention it, I looked it up and the A550 LCD I have would have better black levels if this were the case. .025 ftl. I can tell you that it's fine during the day but at night it doesn't cut it.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/plasma...up/index1.html

Last year's B850 plasma measures .014.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1245336433

When I get my TV this weekend I'll check but from what I've seen I severely doubt the black levels tripled on this year's model. If they did, I won't be hanging onto it!
post #134 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^ Your first quote is not from me. That was posted by Chad.

Sorry about that. Do you have a black level rating for the C7000? I just can't imagine it's 3 times worse than the B550 and B650 from 2009.
post #135 of 7930
Thread Starter 
The quote was not from me, but the reading was correct as far as I know.
post #136 of 7930
Thanks Chad, thanks for your big work for us.
From Italy
Alex
post #137 of 7930
0.033 does seem unusually high for a 2010 midrange plasma.
post #138 of 7930
Will there be a C6500/C7000/C8000 Settings thread?
post #139 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by christberg View Post

You know, now that you mention it, I looked it up and the A550 LCD I have would have better black levels if this were the case. .025 ftl. I can tell you that it's fine during the day but at night it doesn't cut it.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/plasma...up/index1.html

Last year's B850 plasma measures .014.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1245336433

When I get my TV this weekend I'll check but from what I've seen I severely doubt the black levels tripled on this year's model. If they did, I won't be hanging onto it!

I'm no expert, but is it reasonable to assume that measurements made with different meters should not be compared?
post #140 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

I'm no expert, but is it reasonable to assume that measurements made with different meters should not be compared?

For pro calibrators like Chad, the meters must be calibrated to a NIST standard or something every so often, so there should be good agreement between readings taken by others as long as everyone is keeping up the maintenance.

I think the flawed assumption is that this TV would be like other TVs. Remember it is a 3D system. My understanding is that the phosphors have to be different than a "standard" plasma to keep up with the higher refresh rates required in the 3D mode.

What we need are other readings on this particular TV by other sources. Then we can build a better idea of what is really going on. The pn50c8000 is at the top of my purchase list (pulling the trigger next week), so I am very interested in the a resolution of this. I know blacks aren't everything, but in my experience, a 0.03 mll will put this unit in the area of a midrange lcd. Even the panny will beat it after the expected rise.

Mantis
post #141 of 7930
Wonderful. Sounds like I gotta call Crutchfield and cancel my pn58c8000. Man this sucks. I figured there would be a bit of a difference between the Panys and Sammys, but it looks like Samsung has really dropped the ball here.

If only the Toshiba Cell's were gonna be even close to my price range
post #142 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Black level, measured with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV, measured .033 fL. Black had a very slightly greenish cast. The modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 958:1.

These measurements have to be disregarded. An i1Pro is not a proper device to measure black levels. It is meant to measure colors. You need a light meter (and a good one) to measure these things. I own an i1Pro and would never even think of using it to measure black levels or ANSI Contrast. The i1Pro even has trouble measuring colors at the lower IREs.

I have no idea if the black levels on this display are good or not but don't judge them by what an i1Pro tells you.
post #143 of 7930
I so lost haha....all the ces vids show dark blacks...maybe samsung brought out something special just for ces

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXgW0...eature=related
post #144 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

These measurements have to be disregarded. An i1Pro is not a proper device to measure black levels. It is meant to measure colors. You need a light meter (and a good one) to measure these things. I own an i1Pro and would never even think of using it to measure black levels or ANSI Contrast. The i1Pro even has trouble measuring colors at the lower IREs.

I have no idea if the black levels on this display are good or not but don't judge them by what an i1Pro tells you.

Didn't he use a Milori Trichromat-1?

It says "with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV,"

I admit i have no idea what this all means but it sounds like he used the Milori profiled off of the eye one pro... whatever that means lol.
post #145 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

These measurements have to be disregarded. An i1Pro is not a proper device to measure black levels. It is meant to measure colors. You need a light meter (and a good one) to measure these things. I own an i1Pro and would never even think of using it to measure black levels or ANSI Contrast. The i1Pro even has trouble measuring colors at the lower IREs.

I have no idea if the black levels on this display are good or not but don't judge them by what an i1Pro tells you.

The method I use does give accurate results for the light levels we're concerned with here. You are right that the i1Pro does not give accurate low light readings; that's the whole reason why I use a low light capable colorimeter profiled off the i1Pro to take the readings. A good colorimeter is much, much better at low light readings than the i1Pro. All the profiling does is line up the readings of both meters (the colorimeter to the i1Pro in this case) at higher light levels so they read the same throughout the upper brightness range.
post #146 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

Didn't he use a Milori Trichromat-1?

It says "with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV,"

I admit i have no idea what this all means but it sounds like he used the Milori profiled off of the eye one pro... whatever that means lol.

I missed that but it does not change much, IMO. The i1Pro is very good for measuring colors but it loses accuracy at lower IREs. So, he trains his Milori to measure like an i1Pro. This increases color measurement accuracy at low light levels.

But, while the Milori may be a good low light colorimeter, it is not a light meter. This is just the wrong tool for the job.

This won't affect a calibration, you can calibrate a set to perfection without a good light meter, but I would never use a colorimeter to measure black levels.
post #147 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Overall, I think the C7000 is a very good set with textbook measurements. It's color may be too vibrant for some while the cat's meow for others; and it's black level is not as dark as I would prefer, but in every other way it is a stand out set.

Thanks for the review Chad. I have been waiting for this. Will you be updating your website's ratings index with the latest reviews?
post #148 of 7930
From the Milori Trichromat-1 specifications:
Luminance Range: 0.05 — 800 cd/m2
.05 cd/m2 is 0.014593175 fL.
I have found this meter to give stable, repeatable, and believable (agrees with what I see) readings even far below that number. Now, it won't accurately measure the black level on a 9G Kuro, though.
post #149 of 7930
Chad,

Is it true that the black levels on 2010 Samsung plasma is worse than 2009? If so, were you surprised by these readings? You think that's by design or something is wrong?
post #150 of 7930
.033 black level? LOL Glad i go the G20 becasue even if the blakc level rises..it will still be better than samsungs plasmas
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