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Netflix+Linux+petition=????

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
The following how-to explains how to watch Netflix in a Windows VM, and it also has a link to a petition to Netflix asking for Linux support: http://how-to.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_...ly%29_in_Linux

There are over 4600 signatures on the petition so far which, at $9/mo., represents $41,400 PER MONTH of existing and/or potential income for Netflix. Hopefully, nearly $500,000 per year of income will actually get their attention.

EDIT: or maybe not
Quote:
For the quarter ended December 31, the company reported that it earned $22.7 million

Source
post #2 of 43
IMO, closed services with DRM should be used with closed hardware, like the Roku, AppleTV, iPad, etc.

General purpose PC's and Linux are open and should always be open and free (speech).

Netflix would require a DRM'd plugin and video path, so only closed OS's like OSX and Windows.

I used to get frustrated by this, feeling we (FOSS/Linux users) are "missing out" on things like NF streaming, but then you realize that you don't *want* closed services anyways.

If we slowly add DRM'd services and plugins to Linux, it will eventually be no different than OSX or Windows, functionally or philosophically. I'd rather have my OS remain philosophically in the Right, at least...

...besides, I'm still reading a lot of forum posts all over the net that the selection in NF streaming still isn't great anyways. Plus, if the Comcasts/$EVIL_ISP's of the world get their way re: net neutrality (see recent FCC court ruling), say bye-bye to the NF streaming or Amazon OnDemands of the world...
post #3 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post

Plus, if the Comcasts/$EVIL_ISP's of the world get their way re: net neutrality (see recent FCC court ruling), say bye-bye to the NF streaming or Amazon OnDemands of the world...

That seems to be a bit of a stretch, that if Comcast is allowed to rate-limit BT transfers, that you can say bye-bye to NetFlix streaming or Amazon OnDemand.
post #4 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by k_ross View Post

That seems to be a bit of a stretch, that if Comcast is allowed to rate-limit transfers, that you can say bye-bye to NetFlix streaming or Amazon OnDemand.

Howso?

NF and Amazon video streams compete with the ISP's cable video on demand services. Why *wouldn't* they block/rate limit competing video sources if there is no regulation prohibiting blocking/rate limiting?
post #5 of 43
Thread Starter 
I'd rather have DRM inside, say, an Adobe AIR app than boot Windows just so I can watch NF and have video accel in Flash. Lesser of two evils, I guess. BTW, while it doesn't have its entire library available online, NF still has thousands of movies and TV shows to watch instantly. I've spent days on end watching stuff, and there's still a ton of stuff there that I want to watch. Plus, the quality is higher than Hulu and there aren't any commercials.

Like darkpheonix said in another post, DRM isn't going away, and we have to accept that. Linux can never be a fully mainstream desktop platform unless it can figure out a way to deliver the goods.

As for the FCC ruling (assuming that you're referring to this one), Comcast and Verizon have stated that they have no intentions of charging more for video, etc. Also, it's not a bad thing to keep the FCC in check.
post #6 of 43
*rant* Up here in Canada, we have no streaming services for video (well there is web site streaming but nothing on the level of Hulu or Netflix).

I just want to watch TV on my computer. Man, because of where I live I can't even do that on Windows. :P
post #7 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

Like darkpheonix said in another post, DRM isn't going away, and we have to accept that. Linux can never be a fully mainstream desktop platform unless it can figure out a way to deliver the goods.

I beg to differ, DRM was abandoned on music and the same will happen eventually on movies, mark my words.

Also do you really want Linux to be a mainstream desktop platform? I don't, as it would lose most of it strengths and become just another dumbed down OS for clueless mainstream PC users.
post #8 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

I beg to differ, DRM was abandoned on music and the same will happen eventually on movies, mark my words.

Also do you really want Linux to be a mainstream desktop platform? I don't, as it would lose most of it strengths and become just another dumbed down OS for clueless mainstream PC users.

...beat me to the punch on both points...
post #9 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

I beg to differ, DRM was abandoned on music and the same will happen eventually on movies, mark my words.

It disappeared on music because Apple and other companies slowly removed the restrictions until there was none left.

If a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out. But if it is placed in cold water and is slowly heated, it will die a slow, painful (and quite deserving) death.

Quote:


Also do you really want Linux to be a mainstream desktop platform? I don't, as it would lose most of it strengths and become just another dumbed down OS for clueless mainstream PC users.

Linux' strengths are the lack of lock-in and configurability. How will that be lost if it becomes mainstream? In fact, isn't freedom something we should advocate and share?
post #10 of 43
Thread Starter 
Distros such as Ubuntu, Mandriva, and SUSE are *already* dumbed down too much IMHO. This will continue. And, yes, I *do* want it to be mainstream so we can have a stronger influence on hardware manufacturers to make drivers and service providers such as NF to provide equal access.

DRM will *not* go away for movies. There will *always* be CSS and HDCP for DVD's and Blurays, and the entertainment industry will *never* allow its content to be freely distributed. Distribution is where 90% of their money comes from.

I'd love to be an idealist, but I'm too much of a realist. I don't like it, either, but compromises have to be made for the greater good.
post #11 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

I don't like it, either, but compromises have to be made for the greater good.

Beware of that phrase, that phrase has been used so many times in history to justify all sorts of atrocities...

Personally I don't see any greater good in getting Netflix (even if I was living in the US and actually could use it). Also I don't see the future of streaming video being proprietary DRMed services like Netflix. Peer-to-peer is waaay to entrenched to be ever beaten by these services, it's more likely that eventually someone will figure out how to make a legal file sharing service where the content owner get a reasonable fee without all the overhead that a service like Netflix causes.

Think of it, streaming (one-to-many) like Netflix does is a 90's technology, technology has long evolved to peer-to-peer streaming which is a lot more efficient and cheaper for the contetn providers. There is no turning back, the movie industry will have to face reality eventually and make a business out of peer-to-peer.

Quote:


It disappeared on music because Apple and other companies slowly removed the restrictions until there was none left.

Don't give Apple the credit for it, Apple is the most closed controlling company there is, more than MS (and that means a lot). Apple wasn't the first to give up DRM on music and they only did it due to customer pressure.
post #12 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

Distros such as Ubuntu, Mandriva, and SUSE are *already* dumbed down too much IMHO.

I disagree, I can only speak for Mandriva as I have used Ubuntu and Suse too little but I doubt they are much different in this respect. There are a few minor aspects that have been dumbed down, but in practice I can still configure anything I want to meet my personal taste by editing config files as has always been the case with Linux.
The Mandriva GUI config tools (MCC) might seem limited to an expert (but they are quite good for most purposes especially for newbies), but they don't prevent an expert to edit the config files directly in any way.

If anything Gnome has always been a very dumbed down desktop environment, that's maybe why you are saying that about Ubuntu since it uses Gnome by default, but noone stops you from switching to a better DE.
post #13 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Beware of that phrase, that phrase has been used so many times in history to justify all sorts of atrocities...

Guns can be used to rob banks. Should we disarm the military?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Personally I don't see any greater good in getting Netflix (even if I was living in the US and actually could use it). Also I don't see the future of streaming video being proprietary DRMed services like Netflix. Peer-to-peer is waaay to entrenched to be ever beaten by these services, it's more likely that eventually someone will figure out how to make a legal file sharing service where the content owner get a reasonable fee without all the overhead that a service like Netflix causes.

Think of it, streaming (one-to-many) like Netflix does is a 90's technology, technology has long evolved to peer-to-peer streaming which is a lot more efficient and cheaper for the contetn providers. There is no turning back, the movie industry will have to face reality eventually and make a business out of peer-to-peer.

I disagree. Hulu and NF would never work in a peer-to-peer model. Since they would have no control of who's seeding what and for how long, they wouldn't have any control over quality-of-service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Don't give Apple the credit for it, Apple is the most closed controlling company there is, more than MS (and that means a lot). Apple wasn't the first to give up DRM on music and they only did it due to customer pressure.

Exactly, *customer pressure* -- in their case, it was preposterous to pay for a song and only be able to listen to it on one device. That isn't the case with video streaming since it isn't downloaded for later use...you can watch it anytime as many times as you want on any supported device.

If Linux doesn't become more mainstream, then we don't have any *customer pressure*. I'm not the only person that wants to watch NF without paying for, booting, and maintaining a separate OS specifically for that single purpose. They can DRM it however they want to, just let me access my PAID SUBSCRIPTION service from Linux.
post #14 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

I disagree, I can only speak for Mandriva as I have used Ubuntu and Suse too little but I doubt they are much different in this respect. There are a few minor aspects that have been dumbed down, but in practice I can still configure anything I want to meet my personal taste by editing config files as has always been the case with Linux.
The Mandriva GUI config tools (MCC) might seem limited to an expert (but they are quite good for most purposes especially for newbies), but they don't prevent an expert to edit the config files directly in any way.

If anything Gnome has always been a very dumbed down desktop environment, that's maybe why you are saying that about Ubuntu since it uses Gnome by default, but noone stops you from switching to a better DE.

I'm not saying that you can't still make expert modifications (such is even the case with Windows). I'm saying that I usually end up disabling all of the crap that gets initially installed "to make things easier". If I want a CD to be mounted, then I'll freakin' mount the CD. If I buy a bluetooth device, then I'll load the necessary software -- QUIT LOOKING FOR A BLUETOOTH DEVICE, etc., etc.
post #15 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

Guns can be used to rob banks. Should we disarm the military?

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

I disagree. Hulu and NF would never work in a peer-to-peer model. Since they would have no control of who's seeding what and for how long, they wouldn't have any control over quality-of-service.

What you mention are procedural and technological issues that can be easily overcome (for example a service based on a flat monthly fee doesn't really have to know who watches what how many times), the main hurdle is getting the movie industry to accept what the music industry has already accepted: that there is no future for them in DRM so they either drop the DRM or they lose the money (their current business model is on the road to nowhere, they either adapt to the new realities or they die).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

Exactly, *customer pressure* -- in their case, it was preposterous to pay for a song and only be able to listen to it on one device. That isn't the case with video streaming since it isn't downloaded for later use...you can watch it anytime as many times as you want on any supported device.

The pressure simply comes from the wast amounts of people who simply ignore these restricted DRMed services and use free peer-to-peer or usenet downloads or rapidshare downloads, etc...
Did you know that the 3 strikes rule in France has actually increased peer-to-peer use there?
Simply because people now know they don't face any risk at least until after they have been caught twice!

Also more and more people want to watch streaming videos on their media players (popcorn hour etc) and on those devices Netflix is not working either, so it's not just Linux users.
post #16 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Yes.

Oh, a "lefty" -- I should've known. Let's not get political

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

What you mention are procedural and technological issues that can be easily overcome (for example a service based on a flat monthly fee doesn't really have to know who watches what how many times), the main hurdle is getting the movie industry to accept what the music industry has already accepted: that there is no future for them in DRM so they either drop the DRM or they lose the money (their current business model is on the road to nowhere, they either adapt to the new realities or they die).

You're missing the point -- (a) it cannot work, (b) they most certainly DO need to know who's watching what and how often, (c) DRM for the music industry was a completely different story since the content was *downloaded*

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

The pressure simply comes from the wast amounts of people who simply ignore these restricted DRMed services and use free peer-to-peer or usenet downloads or rapidshare downloads, etc...

"customer pressure" and "copyright violation" are two different things. It wasn't the latter that forced Apple's hand, it was the anger of paying customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Also more and more people want to watch streaming videos on their media players (popcorn hour etc) and on those devices Netflix is not working either, so it's not just Linux users.

Isn't the OS on the popcorn hour Linux?
post #17 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

Oh, a "lefty"

Wrong, but as you said let's not get political. One cheeky reply doesn't reveal anything about my political ideas, if anything my past debates with quantumstate are more revealing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

"customer pressure" and "copyright violation" are two different things. It wasn't the latter that forced Apple's hand, it was the anger of paying customers.

Lost business is lost business, if it's down to active customer pressure or customers doing copyright violation (btw, pure downloads are perfectly legal in many countries, uploads probably nowhere) makes no difference to the bottom line of the movie industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmaster View Post

Isn't the OS on the popcorn hour Linux?

Sure but if popcorn hour works out some proprietary deal (as they are doing for the Popbox) with Netflix then that won't help you as a desktop Linux user at all.

Also viceversa, if Netflix writes a DRMed client for Linux that doesn't mean it will run on the limited hardware of a media player (even if the OS is the same).
post #18 of 43
I currently use my parents' netflix account on my Xbox 360. I have a 360 because I like competitive social gaming. There is no open equivalent. I use netflix because it costs me nothing and gives me access to tons of content. (They just added almost all of King of the Hill!) I would pay for DRM'ed Netflix in linux.

I do hate DRM though. I hate that Hollywood would rather "license" you a movie than let you own it. I hate that Blu Ray and 3D enforce this by getting people to repurchase the SAME media with little "added value". The execs don't want us to have digital libraries because they are permanent (when properly backed up) and cut into the "licensing" they live off of from tv networks.

I don't like that at any moment Netflix could drop King of the Hill and I couldn't show my friends my favorite episodes. When recording from TV though, networks have started issuing generic episode information so I can't categorize episodes automatically. (The Simpsons is especially guilty of this.) Netflix gives me the content I want with the only alternative being to not watch it or pirate it. It's far from ideal, but I make the same sacrifice I make for gaming.

DRM for movies is going to stay until bandwidth allows for DVDs/BluRay to download at the quality and speed of current full length albums. When it becomes that trivial to pirate, the model has to change (as it has with music). What is the model that can support DRM free movies? It has to beat the pirating model.
post #19 of 43
Thread Starter 
/rant

all good points!
post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

I beg to differ, DRM was abandoned on music and the same will happen eventually on movies, mark my words.

Wait, wait wait! You mean I don't have to burn DRM removal CDs anymore??? Where the heck have I been?
post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Don't give Apple the credit for it, Apple is the most closed controlling company there is, more than MS (and that means a lot). Apple wasn't the first to give up DRM on music and they only did it due to customer pressure.

Yes Apple is very controlling, but for the sake of being fair, ire is due to the RIAA and MPAA, that is where the push for DRM actually starts.
post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by shane2943 View Post

Wait, wait wait! You mean I don't have to burn DRM removal CDs anymore??? Where the heck have I been?

What are 'DRM removal CDs'? Are you talking about those CDs with intentionally defective sectors? That's not really DRM at all, it's a very crude and ineffective attempt at copy protection (which is not the same as DRM).

Are those still around? I though they had given up on that, at least here in Europe where loads of people brought them back to the stores for a refund because they didn't play in their car stereos.

Anyway, I meant DRM on downloaded music, like from the itunes store or amazon.
post #23 of 43
No, a (what I call) DRM removal CD is an audio CD that I make and burn full of music from the iTunes store loaded with the DRM garbage. When iTunes converts the files into AAC for audio CD player use, the DRM is eliminated. I would then rerip the same disk to 320 MP3s without DRM. It was my crude way of eliminating the DRM from my music.
post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by zim2dive View Post

Yes Apple is very controlling, but for the sake of being fair, ire is due to the RIAA and MPAA, that is where the push for DRM actually starts.

I would tend to agree if Apple was only controlling with regards to media downloads, but when you look at their iphone apps store rules and all their other lock-ins then it's quite clear that Apple themselves is controlling regardless of the extra pressure from RIAA and MPAA.
post #25 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by shane2943 View Post

No, a (what I call) DRM removal CD is an audio CD that I make and burn full of music from the iTunes store loaded with the DRM garbage. When iTunes converts the files into AAC for audio CD player use, the DRM is eliminated. I would then rerip the same disk to 320 MP3s without DRM. It was my crude way of eliminating the DRM from my music.

I don't use the itunes store, but I thought any new downloads are plain DRM free files these days?
Are you talking about files you bought before they started selling DRM-free files?
AFAIK you can buy DRM free mp3 from the itune store these days, you certainly can from amazon.
post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

I would tend to agree if Apple was only controlling with regards to media downloads, but when you look at their iphone apps store rules and all their other lock-ins then it's quite clear that Apple themselves is controlling regardless of the extra pressure from RIAA and MPAA.

Apple is a company of restrictions. I say that as an owner of both a Macbook and an iPhone. They should be the first and number-one target of the open source community.

They are much worse than Microsoft in every conceivable way.
post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

I don't use the itunes store, but I thought any new downloads are plain DRM free files these days?
Are you talking about files you bought before they started selling DRM-free files?
AFAIK you can buy DRM free mp3 from the itune store these days, you certainly can from amazon.

And that's what I was surprised to read! I didn't know (mostly because I just don't keep up with it) that the files were DRM free. Guess I can quit wasting CDs then!

What changed everything regarding DRM?
post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by shane2943 View Post

And that's what I was surprised to read! I didn't know (mostly because I just don't keep up with it) that the files were DRM free. Guess I can quit wasting CDs then!

What changed everything regarding DRM?

The influence of Amazon and eMusic and the fact that Apple was willing to trade their lower prices for the removal of DRM.

Apple would have never been able to remove Fairplay, and probably never would have wanted to, if it wasn't for Amazon and eMusic nipping at their toes.
post #29 of 43
Well, good ridens to that DRM Fairplay crap.

Is Amazon and eMusic a better source for music than the iTunes store?
post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by shane2943 View Post

Well, good ridens to that DRM Fairplay crap.

Is Amazon and eMusic a better source for music than the iTunes store?

Depends on where you live and what you want.

The iTunes Music Store has some really obscure stuff and Amazon is US only.
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