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Logitech Squeezebox Touch Owners Thread - Page 6

post #151 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugnax555 View Post

Wireless at the moment. Although it is sitting on a stand that has 5 other devices wired up at the moment (didn't realize I had that much stuff there until I went through it in my head). Just never got around to grabbing another ethernet cable to hook it up--it's been working great as is.

That's good to know. I have pretty good signal strength (85% min.) at my main rig but I haven't tried any hi-res files yet. I'll see what happens tomorrow.
post #152 of 1055
Hello Friends,

I am exploring the purchase of a SBTouch as well as trying to understand playing and streaming high resolution (eg. 24/96 audio). My only prior experience was with a panasonic dvd player that played DVD-A. With that player and 24/96 multi-channel audio DVD-A discs(AIX records), I could not output digital audio via optical or S/PDIF to my receiver (Denon 3808). I was required to use muti-channel analog outs. In reading some reviews of the SBTouch, many people comment on using it as a transport and sending audio files through it's digital outputs to an external DAC or to the DAC in their receivers/pre-pros.

So, my noobie question is this. Is the SBTouch capable of sending 24/96 audio signals through it's digital audio outputs in their full resolution? If it can actually do this, is it limited to stereo signals, or does it also pass along hi-resolution, multi-channel audio files (e.g. iTrax 5.1 WMAlossless)?

I would love to hear from someone who has checked and verified that the SBTouch can pass these signals via it's digital outputs.

Thank you in advance for the help.


WT
post #153 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenheaven View Post

So, my noobie question is this. Is the SBTouch capable of sending 24/96 audio signals through it's digital audio outputs in their full resolution? If it can actually do this, is it limited to stereo signals, or does it also pass along hi-resolution, multi-channel audio files (e.g. iTrax 5.1 WMAlossless)?

The Touch can send 24/96 stereo audio through S/PDIF connections (I think it can do up to 24/192 stereo), but not 24/96 multichannel audio. This is a limitation of the S/PDIF protocol, so no standards-compliant device will get around it.
post #154 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugnax555 View Post

The Touch can send 24/96 stereo audio through S/PDIF connections (I think it can do up to 24/192 stereo), but not 24/96 multichannel audio. This is a limitation of the S/PDIF protocol, so no standards-compliant device will get around it.

However, I believe it "downmixes" any multi-channel to stereo? So...you can play them, just not multi-channel.

CD
post #155 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

As for better AQ utilizing the digital output...I guess that depends. Understand, using the digital output means you're bypassing the Touch's DAC and using something else. Now, if the review (and I haven't had the pleasure yet. I've been waiting on this month's Stereophile...maybe my subscription is up?) ran the Touch into a 4-digit DAC, or even the $400 DacMagic, or the $800 Decco2...or any really good-sounding external DAC...then sure; you wouldn't be surprised to hear an improvement over the one in the $300 Touch. OTOH, if you were running it digitally into a $300 AVR, you might find the Touch's DAC to sound better.

I have to say, I'm kinda surprised; the buzz I had been hearing was that the Touch's DAC was really nice-sounding. IMO, the Classic/V3 had a very nice-sounding DAC, the Duet took a slight step back to my ears; I thought the Touch was a bit of a return, but I actually haven't A/B'd mine the way I usually do. Life's too short, and I'm very happy with my Decco2 as DAC/Pre...so why futz?
CD

I dont know about that. I've got the Squeezebox Classic myself and use with with a Cambridge Audio 540 R2 AV Receiver, which isnt exactly high end. Running it via analog outs on the Squeezebox versus digital into the AVR and letting the receiver convert, well my impression is that the receiver as DAC is better. Which surprised me. And as far as I know the SB Touch does not have better DAC than the SB Classic.
post #156 of 1055
Thank you for the reply.

Since I note there are only stereo RCA outputs on the SBTouch, I am assuming there is no way to play multi-channel, high resolution audio files through the Touch. Am I wrong, or have I missed something?

WT
post #157 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenheaven View Post

Thank you for the reply.

Since I note there are only stereo RCA outputs on the SBTouch, I am assuming there is no way to play multi-channel, high resolution audio files through the Touch. Am I wrong, or have I missed something?

WT

The only way to get multichannel out of the touch is by ripping the DD/DTS multichannel files from the DVD-Video portion of discs or by encoding the hi-res multichannel files into DD/DTS streams yourself, and then outputting those via S/PDIF to an AVR for decoding. This is obviously lossy, but can still sound pretty good.
post #158 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

I dont know about that. I've got the Squeezebox Classic myself and use with with a Cambridge Audio 540 R2 AV Receiver, which isnt exactly high end. Running it via analog outs on the Squeezebox versus digital into the AVR and letting the receiver convert, well my impression is that the receiver as DAC is better. Which surprised me. And as far as I know the SB Touch does not have better DAC than the SB Classic.

I don't think you read my post very carefully. I'm very deliberate not to make sweeping generalizations; or at least I try.

I said "you wouldn't be surprised to hear an improvement over the one in the $300 Touch. OTOH, if you were running it digitally into a $300 AVR, you might find the Touch's DAC to sound better". IIRC, the OP was asking about why the reviewer wrote an external DAC sounded better than the one in an AVR, or the on-board decoding, and I tried to give an answer that could explain it.

I also said the DAC in the v3/Classic (a good Burr-Brown model) was a musical-sounding DAC, IMO; and that the Duet took a step back with that Wolfson...but that the Touch was rumored to have a good-sounding DAC again (although I hadn't tested it against the digital output to my DAC). So where is that me saying the Touch has a better DAC than the v3/Classic??

CD
post #159 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

However, I believe it "downmixes" any multi-channel to stereo? So...you can play them, just not multi-channel.

CD

Not that I know of. That would require it have a decoder for the mch format in question and I doubt it has any. OTOH, you can send plain vanilla DD and dts through it.
post #160 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenheaven View Post

Thank you for the reply.

Since I note there are only stereo RCA outputs on the SBTouch, I am assuming there is no way to play multi-channel, high resolution audio files through the Touch. Am I wrong, or have I missed something?

WT

You can send lossy multi-channel (dts/DD) or you can send stereo high resolution but not "multi-channel, high resolution audio files."
post #161 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

You can send lossy multi-channel (dts/DD) or you can send stereo high resolution but not "multi-channel, high resolution audio files."

That's great. I have a few DTS music discs but I hadn't ripped them to my PC because I didn't think they would work with the Touch.
post #162 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60SXRD View Post

That's great. I have a few DTS music discs but I hadn't ripped them to my PC because I didn't think they would work with the Touch.

There is one caveat: You must be careful to keep the Touch volume control at maximum, as you should anyway, and control listening levels with whatever it is plugged into.
post #163 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

There is one caveat: You must be careful to keep the Touch volume control at maximum, as you should anyway.

But of course! No chopping off bits for this kid.
post #164 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Not that I know of. That would require it have a decoder for the mch format in question and I doubt it has any. OTOH, you can send plain vanilla DD and dts through it.

Well, I had never tried it myself...it was something that I thought I read. And it turns out you're right Kal; and wrong, but also a little right...lol.

I tested a track from my multi-track 24/96 rip of Greendale, and it "played"; it streamed. Now, I couldn't hear much in my 2-channel rig...some muffled-sounding bass notes, like a movie soundtrack through 2 channels.

So...it plays...but it doesn't "downmix" in any substantial way; and I guess, unless you had a mix that had a lot of L-R info, it's no kind of option.

CD
post #165 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I tested a track from my multi-track 24/96 rip of Greendale, and it "played"; it streamed. Now, I couldn't hear much in my 2-channel rig...some muffled-sounding bass notes, like a movie soundtrack through 2 channels.

So...it plays...but it doesn't "downmix" in any substantial way; and I guess, unless you had a mix that had a lot of L-R info, it's no kind of option.

Was that MCH FLAC? Or what?
post #166 of 1055
If it's a multichannel WAV or FLAC, I wonder if the Touch is only playing the LF and RF channels (or some other combination of two channels).
post #167 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Was that MCH FLAC? Or what?

Still in WAV, as extracted by DVD-A Explorer; but I suspect it would do the same if converted to FLAC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugnax555 View Post

If it's a multichannel WAV or FLAC, I wonder if the Touch is only playing the LF and RF channels (or some other combination of two channels).

That was my guess, although I would have expected more than I heard, even in just the LF and RF. I'd have to drag my Touch to the HT to test for other channels, when I'm almost sure it won't do it.

CD
post #168 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Still in WAV, as extracted by DVD-A Explorer; but I suspect it would do the same if converted to FLAC.

I will give it a try.
post #169 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60SXRD View Post

That's great. I have a few DTS music discs but I hadn't ripped them to my PC because I didn't think they would work with the Touch.

I've done exactly that, and the resulting ripped files..I use wma lossless...sound great and are recognized by the decoders in my Integra 9.9 and Outlaw 990 as a DTS encoded 5.1 recording.
post #170 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by strindl View Post

I've done exactly that, and the resulting ripped files..I use wma lossless...sound great and are recognized by the decoders in my Integra 9.9 and Outlaw 990 as a DTS encoded 5.1 recording.

Very cool. I'll give it a try tomorrow. It'll be interesting to compare the ripped version playing through the Touch to the disc playing through my Oppo.
post #171 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60SXRD View Post

Very cool. I'll give it a try tomorrow. It'll be interesting to compare the ripped version playing through the Touch to the disc playing through my Oppo.

Since all of the decoding is handled in the receiver in both cases, there should be no difference.
post #172 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugnax555 View Post

Since all of the decoding is handled in the receiver in both cases, there should be no difference.

True, but I'm interested to hear if there's an audible difference between S/PDIF coax from the Touch and HDMI from the Oppo.
post #173 of 1055
Does any one know how much power the Touch puts out of the analog outputs? I'm considering it to drive a pair of Monoprice 4101 (8 Inches 2-Way In-Wall Speakers) in my kitchen.

Thanks!
post #174 of 1055
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreOfSD View Post

Does any one know how much power the Touch puts out of the analog outputs? I'm considering it to drive a pair of Monoprice 4101 (8 Inches 2-Way In-Wall Speakers) in my kitchen.

Thanks!

The Touch does not have an amplifier.
post #175 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Well, I had never tried it myself...it was something that I thought I read. And it turns out you're right Kal; and wrong, but also a little right...lol.

I tested a track from my multi-track 24/96 rip of Greendale, and it "played"; it streamed. Now, I couldn't hear much in my 2-channel rig...some muffled-sounding bass notes, like a movie soundtrack through 2 channels.

So...it plays...but it doesn't "downmix" in any substantial way; and I guess, unless you had a mix that had a lot of L-R info, it's no kind of option.

CD

I wanted to follow-up on this. As I said, I'm not a multi-channel guy like our friend Kal here; but with recently starting to pull the hi-res, 2-channel tracks off DVD-A...I have been keeping certain multi-channel releases as well, just in case I ever want to stream them to a suitable solution.

So when this issue came up...as to whether the Touch would stream them or not...I decided to try one that I had ripped. I reported that, it didn't really "work", because through my 2-channel rig all I heard was some "rumbling" and distant vocals...like a movie soundtrack through a 2-channel rig. I assumed I was getting the LF and RF, but even posted I was surprised there wasn't more information to be had in those channels; after all, this wasn't a movie soundtrack, where sometimes those channels are barren...this was a music recording, where certainly there should be plenty of info to be had up front.

Well, it turns out...pulling those multi-channel tracks out of DVD-A Explorer...there's a C/LFE track and then a LF/RF/LS/RS track; and it turns out, when I thought I was testing multi-channel track 1...as a whole...I was only playing the C/LFE portion. No wonder it sounded the way it did! LOL

So I guess now I'm wondering how...or if...you can (easily) rip the multi-channel from DVD-A? Maybe DVD-A Explorer has an option to merge the C/LFE and LF/RF/LS/RS into one file? If it turns out it can be done easily, I'll test the Touch again...but if it turns out, it can be done, but it involves this other ripper, and this other software for the merge, etc...I'll pass, as like I said...I'm not really a multi-channel guy.

But I am curious about the Touch's capability here. For example, it will play the LF/RF/LS/RS track...even though that's got 4 channels of info...and I am getting "normal" info out of the LF/RF in my 2-channel rig. Someone test this in their multi-channel rig? I'm sure you've got files, but if for some reason you need one, let me know. At the very least...even if I don't go to the trouble of merging the C/LFE and LF/RF/LS/RF files, I'd be curious to know if the Touch passed all 4 channels of the LF/RF/LS/RS track. If it did, I'd see no reason to believe it wouldn't pass all 6, for someone who did take the time to merge the files.

EDIT- OK, edit; don't mind me...I've said many times, I am not a multi-channel guy. So, of course, what I was talking about was the C/LFE being on one group of a track, and the LF/RF/LS/RS on another. And the optiion in DVD-A Explorer to pull them as one is simply "merge groups"; duh. So I'm doing it, and I'll test it on my Touch...but again, this'll just be to my 2-channel rig. I have no doubt it'll play...and I'll get the LF and RF...but we still need someone to confirm or not if the Touch will pass discrete, multi-channel.

CD
post #176 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Well, it turns out...pulling those multi-channel tracks out of DVD-A Explorer...there's a C/LFE track and then a LF/RF/LS/RS track; and it turns out, when I thought I was testing multi-channel track 1...as a whole...I was only playing the C/LFE portion. No wonder it sounded the way it did! LOL

So I guess now I'm wondering how...or if...you can (easily) rip the multi-channel from DVD-A? Maybe DVD-A Explorer has an option to merge the C/LFE and LF/RF/LS/RS into one file?

Indeed. There is a merge groups option on the extract menu.

Quote:


But I am curious about the Touch's capability here. For example, it will play the LF/RF/LS/RS track...even though that's got 4 channels of info...and I am getting "normal" info out of the LF/RF in my 2-channel rig.

I doubt it will unless you have some device capable of decoding the MCH PCM. I will also try converting it to FLAC.

Quote:


Someone test this in their multi-channel rig? I'm sure you've got files, but if for some reason you need one, let me know. At the very least...even if I don't go to the trouble of merging the C/LFE and LF/RF/LS/RF files, I'd be curious to know if the Touch passed all 4 channels of the LF/RF/LS/RS track. If it did, I'd see no reason to believe it wouldn't pass all 6, for someone who did take the time to merge the files.

I extracted a 6 channel PCM file from a DVD-A and I will try to stream it, via the SBT to my prepro. I am both hopeful and doubtful.

Quote:


EDIT- OK, edit; don't mind me...I've said many times, I am not a multi-channel guy. So, of course, what I was talking about was the C/LFE being on one group of a track, and the LF/RF/LS/RS on another. And the optiion in DVD-A Explorer to pull them as one is simply "merge groups"; duh. So I'm doing it, and I'll test it on my Touch...but again, this'll just be to my 2-channel rig. I have no doubt it'll play...and I'll get the LF and RF...but we still need someone to confirm or not if the Touch will pass discrete, multi-channel.CD

I will let you know.
post #177 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I doubt it will unless you have some device capable of decoding the MCH PCM.

Yeah Kal, but won't just about any capable HT Pre/Pro do that? My movie streamer in the HT will play these multi-channel files, but that raises another question...for this non-multi-channel guy...

What DSP do you use for true multi-channel? In other words, something like the All Channel Stereo on my Integra, will simulate 6 channels from 2. But what do you use when you really have discrete, 6-channel music?

CD
post #178 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Yeah Kal, but won't just about any capable HT Pre/Pro do that? My movie streamer in the HT will play these multi-channel files, but that raises another question...for this non-multi-channel guy...

What DSP do you use for true multi-channel? In other words, something like the All Channel Stereo on my Integra, will simulate 6 channels from 2. But what do you use when you really have discrete, 6-channel music?

CD

None. Whatever format the mch signal is in works for me. All Channel Stereo does not simulate multichannel, it is just a party mode.
post #179 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Yeah Kal, but won't just about any capable HT Pre/Pro do that? My movie streamer in the HT will play these multi-channel files, but that raises another question...for this non-multi-channel guy...

The issue is the S/PDIF output from the SBT. All lossless MCH signal streams require more than it is supposed to handle.

Quote:


What DSP do you use for true multi-channel? In other words, something like the All Channel Stereo on my Integra, will simulate 6 channels from 2. But what do you use when you really have discrete, 6-channel music?

CD

None. Whatever format the mch signal is in works for me. All Channel Stereo does not simulate multichannel, it is just a party mode.
post #180 of 1055
I have had my TOUCH now for a little over a month. A few impressions:

Likes/Loves:

Sound quality is top notch. I am running it through coax digital audio out to a Beresford Caiman DAC, then RCA out to a Cambridge AZUR 640A v2 integrated amp. Royd Minstrel speakers. Modest system by many standards here, but the sound is as good as it ha ever been with any source. I am sourcing my music on an HP Mediasmart Server and the TOUCH is connected to my network via ethernet. I was formerly using a ROKU Soundbridge (M1000 and M2000 versions), so this will be my comparison benchmark.

I have not bothered with using the RCA outs to the amp so I can't comment on sound differences between it's internal DAC vs the Beresford.

My CD library is ripped to Apple Lossless and I also have a separate folder of hi-rez (24 bit, 88.2 and 92 khz) FLAC files. All play flawlessly and sound great. Very open and revealing, especially the jazz and classical pieces.

I purchased iPeng and use it on my iPhone and it is very convenient for picking music to play, although there are some hiccups. I will describe below.

Challenges:

Menu is polluted a bit. Using the TOUCH sourced by the HP MSS< the folder menu can be a challenge to navigate. This might be because the music in in the MSS' music folder, but there are also some subfolders which confuse the issue.

For some reason, when searching by artist, it includes EVERY fricking band member name when you are scrolling through the menu. So U2 shows up with Bono, The Edge, Larry Mullen, etc. Probably quadruples the number of listings in the menu. I simply want the primary artist name that I put in the iTunes info box.

You have to scroll through every listing to get to an artist or album. In the ROKU menu, you could pick the first letter and drill down from there. Much faster than scrolling thru the A's, B's, C's and D's etc to get to U2. Or Van Morrison, worse yet.

Playlists have been a royal PIA. With the Roku, I simply exported the playlists from iTunes into a PLAYLIST folder on the MSS and the ROKU happily went to work. With the TOUCH, every playlist shows up empty. I have tried editing them in a text editor to alter drive pathways, change slash directions, change folder location, all to no avail. Nothing works and all playlists are empty. I posted about this in a separate thread and the reply, while detailed, simply didn't get me working. This is causing me to tear my hair out and frankly is really reducing the usability of this unit for me. Posting questions in the Squeezebox forums elicits zero reply, and frankly is useless to me. Better answers here.

The screen is not visible to my eye from any distance over 5'. The ROKU, especially the M2000, while a simple interface, was light years easier to see and much easier to navigate from my viewing chair. The menu system was simpler and I could use it with just the MSS running and didn't need the computer on, which is what I wanted. The TOUCH software for the MSS is fine, but as I said, the menu and searching is problematic.

iPeng: full featured, but it seems to want to put every song in a playlist before it will play. Just clicking on the first song in an album plays that song, but nothing else. Really a headache to get working. The ROKUMOTE app written for the Roku by a guy out there works well and is very simple to operate. Points to the ROKU again here.

Honestly, my family was happy with the ROKU, however I wanted the ability to play hi-res files, which the ROKU won't do. My wife was happy navigating artists and playlists. The TOUCH has been a no go. Can't find what she wants, scrolling forever, hard to see the menu, etc. Of course, hi rez fies are lost on her.

So the plusses:

Sound quality on hi-rez files


The minuses:

Navigation
Visibility
Playlist management
Playing albums easily.

I'll add more as I go through this process....
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