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2-Channel Analog Interconnects/Speaker Cables - Page 7

post #181 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I don't buy it because cables will alter 2D sound as much as 3D sound. You can not alter 3D sound without altering 2D sound.

Yes, and it's easy to show what affects the perceived change of soundstage. This is a repeat but here goes.
Prominent high frequency (tilted up towards HF) tends to make the soundstage seem more forward, rolled off high frequency (tilted down towards HF) makes it seem further away. Both can easily be documented with RTA when there is audible change from swapping components.
post #182 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

lol, sense of humor notwithstanding.

You would say that but can't quote my name calling post, can you?
post #183 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

lol, sense of humor notwithstanding.



Not at all man, I'm just doing what I do. I'm not trying to call you out, just offering my findings. You know how it goes in threads, the more you say the more you open up yourself for comment..

No worries from me, I enjoy a good debate
post #184 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You need to higher better people that learn how to effectively use money

calm down 'penn', you're getting all wound up ! ....it's..'hire' btw
post #185 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

calm down 'penn', you're getting all wound up ! ....it's..'hire' btw

ugh....I try to spell check.....ugh I have must have ADD its hard to keep on one thread when you have actually three sites going
post #186 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Yes, and it's easy to show what affects the perceived change of soundstage. This is a repeat but here goes.
Prominent high frequency (tilted up towards HF) tends to make the soundstage seem more forward, rolled off high frequency (tilted down towards HF) makes it seem further away. Both can easily be documented with RTA when there is audible change from swapping components.

Lets take Tara Labs RSC air 2 cables

"The AIR 2 Series 2 is a very neutral and revealing speaker cable that combines dynamic bass, neutral mid-range frequencies with high-frequency extension."

When we use the word extension that would me the cable extends the frequency range higher. If this is true then its easily measured.

$500 on audiohone for a pair (3 foot cable) What a steal considering MSRP $2K
post #187 of 1116
I have concluded that the new Favorite audiophile buzzwords are DEPTH and 3D sound
post #188 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Dude, I have been married for 15 years, I have two kids. Its my first wife. I outlasted 90% of my friends who are on second marriages,. Before that I dated > 100 different girls. (Jock and bartender helps, a new girl ever weekend....hmmmm...the good old days...)

Dosen't say much for your friends..........btw 15 years, you're still a rookie ! as for the 100 plus girls you got a long way to go to catch 'Wilt the Stilt' !

Quote:


Lets just say I know success daily, its harder then you think

Id say so, it took you 100 + girls to figure things out ...LOL ..


Just bustin' your stones a bit 'penn', I do crack up when people try and 'brag' about still being married to their 'first' wife as if marriage is a throw away experience.
post #189 of 1116
For all who really care about listening you should read and keep updated on this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1151581
post #190 of 1116
When I talk about depth I mean front to back distance perception of the entire band within the space (or room) of original recording. Level changes will artificially change positioning within the depth of the soundstage, but not the overall depth of the original recording.

For example, if we accentuate say the vocals range, they would be more forward within the soundstage. While this could be construed as added depth, actually everything in that range is artificially pushed forward, therefore all that was accomplished was an offset on the position of that frequency range of information relative to the rest of the image. Having vocals 10 feet out from the drummer does not necessarily mean proper depth from a 2 channel playback system (although it could be possible given enough space and maybe a set of planer loudspeakers).

Increased spacial information, as if you were there, allows the brain to better localize the space between and behind instruments and singers. If it exists in playback, the depth can be reconstructed in the brain, if not, then playback is more 2D. This tends to be the case in many 2 channel systems I've heard.

This would be far easier to explain in person in front of a system while making these changes. Trying to describe it in a few paragraphs is proving to be difficult.
post #191 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

For all who really care about listening you should read and keep updated on this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1151581

Agreed. This software Harman is so kindly putting out there should be required listening.
post #192 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

When I talk about depth I mean front to back distance perception of the entire band within the space (or room) of original recording. Level changes will artificially change positioning within the depth of the soundstage, but not the overall depth of the original recording.

For example, if we accentuate say the vocals range, they would be more forward within the soundstage. While this could be construed as added depth, actually everything in that range is artificially pushed forward, therefore all that was accomplished was an offset on the position of that frequency range of information relative to the rest of the image. Having vocals 10 feet out from the drummer does not necessarily mean proper depth from a 2 channel playback system (although it could be possible given enough space and maybe a set of planer loudspeakers).

Audio cables only attenuate signals, never boost. "Accentuate" is an inappropriate term for cable discussion. If the cable happens to attenuate more of lower and higher frequency (below and above vocal range), it will make the vocals seem more pronounced because the adjacent frequencies receded even though the overall volume level is reduced (it can easily be compensated by turning up the volume knob). It's a trick to make the listener (unformed and unsuspecting ones) to think that there's some magical property in some audio cables while not realizing what they are getting is coloration (bad).

Quote:


Increased spacial information, as if you were there, allows the brain to better localize the space between and behind instruments and singers. If it exists in playback, the depth can be reconstructed in the brain, if not, then playback is more 2D.

More sugar coat on the cable trickery.

Quote:


This would be far easier to explain in person in front of a system while making these changes. Trying to describe it in a few paragraphs is proving to be difficult.

1 picture is worth 1000 words. RTA plots can explain this in seconds.
post #193 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

...
I wonder how many of you so called scientist believe in God?

There is a small percentage;one only needs to check some of the published surveys.
post #194 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

When I talk about depth I mean front to back distance perception of the entire band within the space (or room) of original recording. Level changes will artificially change positioning within the depth of the soundstage, but not the overall depth of the original recording.

For example, if we accentuate say the vocals range, they would be more forward within the soundstage. While this could be construed as added depth, actually everything in that range is artificially pushed forward, therefore all that was accomplished was an offset on the position of that frequency range of information relative to the rest of the image. Having vocals 10 feet out from the drummer does not necessarily mean proper depth from a 2 channel playback system (although it could be possible given enough space and maybe a set of planer loudspeakers).

Increased spacial information, as if you were there, allows the brain to better localize the space between and behind instruments and singers. If it exists in playback, the depth can be reconstructed in the brain, if not, then playback is more 2D. This tends to be the case in many 2 channel systems I've heard.

This would be far easier to explain in person in front of a system while making these changes. Trying to describe it in a few paragraphs is proving to be difficult.


So you do believe you can have 3D sound change without effecting the 2D sound field?
post #195 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Audio cables only attenuate signals, never boost. "Accentuate" is an inappropriate term for cable discussion. If the cable happens to attenuate more of lower and higher frequency (below and above vocal range), it will make the vocals seem more pronounced because the adjacent frequencies receded even though the overall volume level is reduced (it can easily be compensated by turning up the volume knob). It's a trick to make the listener (unformed and unsuspecting ones) to think that there's some magical property in some audio cables while not realizing what they are getting is coloration (bad).


More sugar coat on the cable trickery.


1 picture is worth 1000 words. RTA plots can explain this in seconds.

Absolutely, those "special" cables with boxes probably have an inductor or resistor in there....A nice 6dB (First order) roll off above 10K to make speakers sound "warm"

WOW what magic and it only costs you $4K for the speaker wire or $400 for a Digital EQ that will do the same thing.

There is no magic about alter frequencies, there is no magic in what cables do. Once you build a speaker you realize this.
post #196 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

... Have you ever wondered why all drug trials are double-blind?
...

That is certainly not the only product that is tested under DBT.
http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN04-2...tor_story.html
post #197 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

For those reading this thread who are not yet familiar with azsoundman, he is an audio cable dealer and he is posting here as a salesman. You know what salesman would do to make sales.

Is that like CAR salesmen?
Or, homeopathic salesman?
post #198 of 1116
I have been thinking about this 3D stuff some more and the subjective crowd believing there isnt a measurement for it.

CSD plots are 3D visualizations of a speaker response. Its dB, Hz and time, that is essentially the 3D analysis of sound at a sepecific point in the room. There isnt anything else.

How about Wavelet analysis ?

http://www.audiomatica.it/download/audaesny2007.pdf
post #199 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

So you do believe you can have 3D sound change without effecting the 2D sound field?

Sure, although if you increase the 3D you will also improve localization in 2D, improving the ability to hear the space and room around the instruments. If the recording was done in a controlled environment such as an acoustically treated studio there's not much room to hear. If it's a hall or other large ambient area them there's all sorts of it. Keeping in mind it's always within the confines of the loudspeaker's pattern (and the room they are in).
post #200 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Audio cables only attenuate signals, never boost. "Accentuate" is an inappropriate term for cable discussion. If the cable happens to attenuate more of lower and higher frequency (below and above vocal range), it will make the vocals seem more pronounced because the adjacent frequencies receded even though the overall volume level is reduced (it can easily be compensated by turning up the volume knob). It's a trick to make the listener (unformed and unsuspecting ones) to think that there's some magical property in some audio cables while not realizing what they are getting is coloration (bad).

1 picture is worth 1000 words. RTA plots can explain this in seconds.

>>>



accentuate
Definition
ac·cen·tu·ate[ ak sénchoo Ã*yt ]
TRANSITIVE VERB
1.
draw attention to something: to make a feature of something more noticeable
2.
stress something: to emphasize a syllable, word, or phrase when saying it

[ Mid-18th century. < medieval Latin accentuatus, past participle of accentuare "emphasize" < Latin accentus (see accent) ]
post #201 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Skubinski View Post

>>>



accentuate
Definition
ac·cen·tu·ate[ ak sénchoo Ã*yt ]
TRANSITIVE VERB
1.
draw attention to something: to make a feature of something more noticeable
2.
stress something: to emphasize a syllable, word, or phrase when saying it

[ Mid-18th century. < medieval Latin accentuatus, past participle of accentuare "emphasize" < Latin accentus (see accent) ]

"ac·cen·tu·ate (k-snch-t)
tr.v. ac·cen·tu·at·ed, ac·cen·tu·at·ing, ac·cen·tu·ates
1. To stress or emphasize; intensify: "enacted sweeping land-reform plans that accentuated the already chaotic pattern of landholding" (James Fallows).
2. To pronounce with a stress or accent.
3. To mark with an accent."
post #202 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

I've heard some dumb comments on this site but this one ranks right up there.

Not as dumb as bringing religion in the middle of a discussion of audio theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

What does my belief in religion have to do with selling Totem?

And what does religion have to do in a discussion of audio theory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

Besides, if Totem didn't believe in subs then why do they make them and why do I have a sub in my system? Do you know anything about Totem Acoustic? Have you heard Totem speakers? Quick go look at their website so you can respond with model names and specs.

I know nothing about totem speakers, but I know enough about audio to know that following comments are ill-informed, with lack of a better word. I would call it something else, but I am trying to be polite with my choice of words since I don't want to offend you again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

If you ever heard a pair of Totem Wind Designs you would say "i don't need a sub with these bad boys". Those puppies get down to 21hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

Best sound stage and imaging. The bass will work where ever the speakers are placed.
post #203 of 1116
How old are those last two quoted chicagorep posts, hd_newbie? Maybe he's "gotten religion" on the subject of subs since then.
post #204 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

How old are those last two quoted chicagorep posts, hd_newbie? Maybe he's "gotten religion" on the subject of subs since then.

5 day old.
post #205 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

And what does religion have to do in a discussion of audio theory?.

You mean tell me young man that you've never experienced "A slice of Heaven" ?? ........ if so you've spent too much time on the forums and not enough listening to music !!!

Alright I admit...trying to add an ounce of levity to what (as usual) is turning into another pissin' match !
post #206 of 1116
Quote:
Quote:
And what does religion have to do in a discussion of audio theory?

You mean tell me young man that you've never experienced "A slice of Heaven" ?? ........ if so you've spent too much time on the forums and not enough listening to music !!!

And what does listening to music have to do with audio theory?
post #207 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post


I know nothing about totem speakers, but I know enough about audio to know that following comments are ill-informed, with lack of a better word. I would call it something else, but I am trying to be polite with my choice of words since I don't want to offend you again.

You're kidding me right? You actually went and looked into my other posts on other threads just so you could find something else to call me out on, how childish. How old are you 10? 12?
You know nothing about Totem speakers yet you feel compelled to make this statement. Maybe you should spend a couple hundred hours listening to a pair of Wind Designs like I have instead of just repeating the same insults over and over again.
Oh yea...I forgot...you're a scientist...or a child maybe. Grow up.
post #208 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

You're kidding me right? You actually went and looked into my other posts on other threads just so you could find something else to call me out on

Well, no I didn't. I was one of the posters in that thread while you were promoting your speakers. I even corrected you there. Nevertheless, it is obvious you didn't read any of that. I guess you didn't want to spend time in the thread after posting your advertisement. Oh well, I guess business comes first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

You know nothing about Totem speakers yet you feel compelled to make this statement. Maybe you should spend a couple hundred hours listening to a pair of Wind Designs like I have instead of just repeating the same insults over and over again.

I do not need to know anything about totem speakers to know that they can not beat laws of physics. But then again, I already told you this in the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

so it seems Totem figured out a way how to beat the laws of physics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

Oh yea...I forgot...you're a scientist...or a child maybe. Grow up.

I do not need to be a scientist to possess such rudimentary knowledge in audio. I know world is round too, yet again I am not an astrophysicist.

One would imagine, being a dealer, you would have some basic audio knowledge about these things too. I am surprised that is not the case.
post #209 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

I do not need to know anything about totem speakers to know that they can not beat laws of physics. But then again, I already told you this in the other thread.


I do not need to be a scientist to possess such rudimentary knowledge in audio. I know world is round too, yet again I am not an astrophysicist.

One would imagine, being a dealer, you would have some basic audio knowledge about these things too. I am surprised that is not the case.

I'm not sure what is the basis of your attack here. I fell it went too far and that you should apologize to Robert. I have sent you a PM to reduce this reply.

I agree with you that Robert should not have introduced religion into conversation at this site.

I agree that you have no knowledge of Totem products. The products he referenced as "many would feel OK without a sub" (or words to that effect) have a -3db point of 24Hz (21Hz in-room typical). That is as good or better than almost every 10" sub on the market; yes a 12" or 15" could do better. But for 2 ch music, MOST people would be happy with those without a sub and for many HT would also be just fine.

Please keep personal attacks to PMs and leave threads for discussing products, technology and listening experiences.
post #210 of 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

I agree that you have no knowledge of Totem products. The products he referenced as "many would feel OK without a sub" (or words to that effect) have a -3db point of 24Hz (21Hz in-room typical). That is as good or better than almost every 10" sub on the market; yes a 12" or 15" could do better. But for 2 ch music, MOST people would be happy with those without a sub and for many HT would also be just fine.

You do not understand how low frequency works in a given room. What you and chicagorep are suggesting is physically impossible.
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