2-Channel Analog Interconnects/Speaker Cables - Page 11

Giz, can you measure what is actually happening to the signal inside the wire? Can you measure if there are different frequencies arriving at different times or if frequencies try to migrate away from each other as they travel through the wire? Can you measure any kind of disturbance these frequencies may indure while traveling along the wire? If this can't be measured or seen then do we say it must not be happening? Is there any proof out there that signals all react the same through say the same guage wire? If the electrical properties are identical would this mean the frequency response should stay the same?

We do??? Have you invented a new physics, or do you just live in a different universe than the rest of us?

If two speakers have exactly the same output, then yes, they would sound the same. The reason speakers never sound the same is that no two speakers have exactly the same output. (Just to be clear, output here means more than just on-axis FR.)

The question I'm raising is, what's the best way of determining that differential—measurements or subjective listening? It doesn't surprise me that a high-end salesman would argue the latter. I was making a case for the former.

Do you think that if you perceived a difference in the sound, it would be real or all in your head? And would your perception affect the pair that you decided to buy?

Everybody is subject to bias. I am no exception. My findings would be just that: my findings. They would have no scientific validity.

If you want to eliminate bias, there are ways to do that, but a sighted testing at home is not one of them.

Well, just to be consistent, no. If they're that close, there's no way that I, a typical consumer without access to Harman's Listening Lab, could evaluate them properly.

"Giz, can you measure what is actually happening to the signal inside the wire? Can you measure if there are different frequencies arriving at different times or if frequencies try to migrate away from each other as they travel through the wire? Can you measure any kind of disturbance these frequencies may indure while traveling along the wire? If this can't be measured or seen then do we say it must not be happening? Is there any proof out there that signals all react the same through say the same gauge wire? If the electrical properties are identical would this mean the frequency response should stay the same?"

Unfortunately you have bought into the false concept of active wire. The simplest way to analyze the audio impact any given wire would have is to start with a calibrated sine wave signal on the low end of the audio spectrum. This signal is fed from a power amp in one end and the other end is connected to a lab grade load resistor as a speaker's impedance changes with frequency. Across the load resistor you have a spectrum analyzer, a scope and a DVM reading db. Readings are taken before the sweep is commenced. The sweep is automatic such that human hand interaction with the generator is non-existent. As the sweep progresses, the signal across the resistor is observed and tracked. If there is no decrease in amplitude or increase in THD as the sweep progresses, then the cable passes the test for true linearity.

Guess what, just about any off the shelf cable will meet the specs required for true linearity throughout the audio spectrum and will not begin a rolloff until well into the 40k range.

This is easily available data from any legit cable manufacturer.

I agree with that. But would your findings personally influence the speakers that you decided to purchase?

Frequencies do not "arrive." Frequency refers to the rate at which the current in the cable is reversing direction. Hence the term, alternating current. At any given time, the current is alternating at only one frequency, even though there may be many instruments playing many different frequencies (plus harmonics). That is why we can plot FR with a single line.

Sure it would. Like I said, I would be affected by bias. If I told I wouldn't, it would be a lie. Same goes for most everyone.

Thank you - that's an honest and reasonable answer. I would also argue that those who listen to two reasonably priced cables (easily affordable for the listener) and perceive a difference and make their purchase based on their findings are no less reasonable.

So..... everybody you disagree with will from here on out be compared to Mr. HEA? You have also accused me of posting under multiple names. You have also said you put me on "ignore".

The tests you would like to perform on my cables should have been done long ago by someone you would think. How about producing these results?

Gizz.... show proof of the anti-physical properties claims for my specific cable.

And what about someone who compares two different styles of cable lifters, and decides that one sounds better than the other? Is he being reasonable, too?

Do you have proof of someone doing so, or is this just rhetoric?

In my opinion, no. You need cables to transmit a signal and since the signal passes through the cables, it is conceivable that the signal could be altered by them. Cable lifters aren't needed to transmit the audio signal, and do not directly come in contact with the signal.

I wouldn't trust you to measure a light bulb, particularly given your attitude.



Given your cable test above, how would you account for how a complex load might change the results? After all, in the real world we listen to loudspeakers, not resistive loads.

That's for speakers. Certainly not for cables.

Have you tried it? If so, list the cables you have auditioned and the components used with them.

You mean this?


You mean skin-effect. Only those who do not understand electronics and acoustics would think that's relevant in audio frequency.


If you want to know, all it takes is a bit of online search.

Audio cables are not in the same category as speakers when it comes to variation. Not even close. Plus, it is much easier to do DBT properly with sets of cables than sets of speakers (big companies have a motorized switcher that can move the speakers into proper spot in a few seconds). When it comes to choosing audio cables, going with spec only is good enough for a guaranteed transparent performance. It really is that simple on cable choices.

From Joe:

"I wouldn't trust you to measure a light bulb, particularly given your attitude."

I find this to be an extremely ironic statement since I said I WOULD provide the data even from one of YOUR cables when you as the "manufacturer will not provide them.


I don't manufacture cables of any kind, but I do know the technology behind them and probably buy and use more in a year than you have seen.

From JS: "Given your cable test above, how would you account for how a complex load might change the results? After all, in the real world we listen to loudspeakers, not resistive loads."

Tests are done with a minimum of variables and speakers are extremely subject to variable influences such as air pressure in the room, humidity, temperature etc JUST AS YOUR EARS ARE. The tests are done with extremely tight tolerances on all components. using a passive speaker with a crossover elimnates any hope of linear testing of a cable, given the tolerances on the components in the Xover circuitry- usaully on the order of +-20%.

But as a "legit" cable designer and manufacturer you would already know this.

As a cable "designer" can you explain how a 24awg UTP pair cable with simple thermoplastic, thin-walled insulation that is about 4 miles long, buried and overhead on phone poles using brass interconnects exposed to all kinds of weather conditions and operating at extremely high speed and carrier frequency can simultaneously deliver error free DSL links for full motion video and narrow bandwidth analog audio simultaneously?
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This is now twice you have accused me of posting under different SNs. I NEVER DID. I DID suggest the possibility from the similarity of your usual post to those of a newbie to the site.

Tess: "So..... everybody you disagree with will from here on out be compared to Mr. HEA? You have also accused me of posting under multiple names. You have also said you put me on "ignore".

No, just those who make supposedly authoritative claims that defy the LAWS of physics and acoustics.

"The tests you would like to perform on my cables should have been done long ago by someone you would think. How about producing these results?"

EVERY cable manufacturer (legitimate) has done these tests and they are readily available. What is lacking from EVERY snake oil brand of cable is ANY posted test results and NOT pretty adjectives about eargasms.

Gizz.... show proof of the anti-physical properties claims for my specific cable.

I will be happy to. Please reread my response above.

everyone is subject to the effect of bias but it is not a REQUISITE phenomenon. It may or may not play a part in any observations and observations are routinely utilized in scientific study. Just because bias MAY be a part of an observation does not make in an invalid observation.

Do none of the mega buck cable crowd realize that IF punchier bass, extended highs etc are heard (subjectively experienced) they are delivered from an electromechanical device (speakers) that respond ONLY to variations in the electrical signal delivered from an amp and THEREFORE, if the signal can be measured (and it can) then ALL the signal amplitude can be measured, not just part of it.

Why do you insist on repeatedly accusing me of making these claims?


"Snake oil" comments and over the top superlatives right on time!

I disagree. No one is going to go public with proprietary methods of testing.


This is an answer? I ask again.

Gizz.... show proof of the anti-physical properties claims for my specific cables.

Why does money figure so highly in your argument? This is repeated over and over.

IOW, reasonableness is a function of one's knowledge of audio. If the only thing you know about cables is that they "transmit a signal and since the signal passes through the cables, it is conceivable that the signal could be altered by them," then it is perfectly reasonable to judge cables subjectively.

But if you are better informed, and understand how cables alter the signal, and how much they alter the signal, and you know that the difference between two cables is such that they are no more likely to make an audible difference than two sets of cable lifters, then it is no longer reasonable to compare those cables subjectively. True?

But the possibility of bias introduces so much uncertainty as to make the observation worthless.

Can't open the video. Hey, how much a kW for a 2 kW unit? talk about expensive cabels

Now we're talking.

Keep in mind that it took about 25 years for the cable manufacturers to make a low cost cable perform to a level capable of bringing us such digital bandwidth we have today in cable. CAT 3 from the early 80's through CAT 6 and 7 today.

DSL over existing phone lines... Have to be within a few miles of the switch, and it's not very good for speed beyond a mile or so- amazing tribute to great error correction and compression in DSP's for sure, but the only reason it works that far can be attributed to Bell Labs designing their own damn good cable back in the day. I'm quite sure those lines on the poles were made in the USA.