2-Channel Analog Interconnects/Speaker Cables - Page 16

And this translates into audible difference of...?
By the way, who uses or recommends 18 AWG wire for speaker cable on this forum?

The electrons move even less in thicker wire, and I'm just being light hearted .

On the basis of this statement, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with the basics of psychoacoustics before positing any more fanciful hypotheses or offering any more sloppy analysis.

Then maybe you'd understand why some of us would argue that relying on subjective evaluation of cables, such as you have done here, is entirely unreasonable.

Why do people find it necessary to come off in this manner? Posts like this give AVS a bad reputation. Worst part about it, some moderators allow it.

Satellites and nuke warheads use cryoed cables, FYI. Why is that?

Lots of audio manufacturers use Joe's cables. Still waiting to hear about your documented cable DBT'ing, the names of the cable, and the associated gear used.

Are you saying that all recording studios do not use "exotic" cables? If so, blanket statement like this is inaccurate. There are studios that are known for superior recordings, they use hot rodded electronics, speakers and mikes as well!


This is not accurate at all. Many speakers use "exotic" cabling.


The $1M reward was withdrawn when Mike Fremer accepted the challenge. Why is this always overlooked?

The cop out was that Fremer could alter his cable so that he could easily identify it. I doubt that Fremer would stoop to cheating and cables can be EXAMINED and MEASURED very easily I am told in this forum. As stated, it was a cop out, mention this next time you bring up Randi's cable challenge. Also note that he acted terribly towards Fremer.

Where do you get your information? The AVS 2 Channel forum?

Seriously, why not just go to Home Depot? They have cables that are just as good, right?

Why shill for Belden and Canare?

From you: ".....they use hot rodded electronics, speakers and mikes as well!"

Finally an accurate statement.

For what it is worth, I have worked for many years with some of the largest pro AV production houses in the country and NONE ever use anything but the Canare and before that, Belden. Ever hear of Greene and Crowe? They are now separate entities but they handled most all the premier audio/video recording and broadcast duties for the networks, satt uplinks, location re-enforcement and recording for many years and still do. They also use Canare including analog lines. digital snakes, in the hundreds of thousands of feet per job. The cable Canare.

2Oth Century Fox recording studios? Canare, and Mogami for audio, video clocking, data, MIDI, etc. Paramount Studios? same thing. I see this because I contract with these guys frequently. Scharff Weisberg? (google them) Same thing.

You keep asking for specific equipment ysed in testing etc. I now ask YOU name a COMMERCIAL studio producing media for public distribution/sales that uses wallet drainer cables.


From You: "Seriously, why not just go to Home Depot? They have cables that are just as good, right?

Why shill for Belden and Canare?"

Canare is considered the premier cable in the industry for several reasons. Quad star lay for dramatically reduced noise incursion. Extremely durable jacket, excellent shielding, great price, ready availability, excellent FR characteristics through the entire audio spectrum.

Home Depot does not sell shielded mic cable, but they sure as hell sell a LOT of 16-2,14-2, 12-2 PVC jacketed TP, SO, SJO for speaker lines and power cable.

I suggest again, extended listening. DBT shows that differences between amplifiers and CDP's are not discernible. Does this mean there is no audible difference?

Yes.*

*Correct answer: It really means that there is no evidence of audible differences, which isn't quite as definitive. But the industry has had decades to present such evidence, and has failed to do so. Sooner or later, it becomes time to apply inductive reasoning.

**By the way, DBTs show that there are in fact discernible differences between some CDPs, and between some amps under some conditions. You really should stop claiming otherwise.

I already expalined why this was so in a previous post. They are not interested in producing the finest product they can, they just want to get the job done and make money catering to the status quo. I checked out the companies you mentioned, a lot of hype and marketing speak. None of the studios you mentioned are recognized for pushing the state of the recording art. Hell Freezes Over (The Eagles) is recognized for it's sound and video, but how much of that is Greene & Crowe responsible for?


I'll name three. Skywalker Sound, Mapleshade and Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. There are many more, you either do not know this or are trying to suppressing the info.

"Wallet drainer cables", lol again with the mega dollar references. You have been told time and again that the cables you hate are not that expensive, you just like to use the extreme examples to prop up your argument. The extremely high priced cables are used for trickle down technology, just like any other field. Are the top dog speaker offerings a better deal than the middle of the line? Generally not, but the middle wouldn't exist without the flagship.


I am seeing a lot of hype in your typing.


There are many "wallet drainer" cables manufacturers that supply audio manufacturers and recording studios, they are not limited to consumer electronics sales in boutique B&M stores.

As I said before, Giz. I totally respect your position in this field, I really do. Just understand that your way of doing things is not the only way, nor the best in every situation.

I almost added that unless the amp was broken or somehow flawed in any way, I just KNEW someone would throw that into the mix. You KNOW what was meant, as do we all.

How can there be something wrong with the JPS cable if they all sound the same?

Did he intentionally change the molecular structure of the copper to gain the blackest blacks and the airiest highs, inadvertently causing something to go horribly wrong?

Change it back, Joe!!!

Joe's Hyperbole series from the wallet drainer collection conducts electricity every bit as well as a coat hanger. PROVEN many times.
You keep using the phrase "hype" about Canare wire and cable.

Here is a suggestion for you. Contact ANY professional AV equipment dealer, production house, recording studio etc and ask to speak to the engineers. Ask them about Canare and Mogami quad star cables and why they use them.

BTW, I DID contact Skywalker Sound via email about your claim. The response was as follows: We invest in ACTIVE components and room treatments. We do use top grade commercially available cables from manufacturers such as Canare and Gepco.

From a friend at Universal music studios (where the movie sound tracks are recorded) here in LA "Why on earth would anyone spend that kind of money on a damn mic cable? That isn't where the issues are. You need an acoustically clean and controlled room, the right mics and preamps and a quiet desk. (mixer) Geez I could retire now if I started selling that junk."

Perhaps if you actually took the time to READ the spec sheets you will see that legit manufacturers do not use pretty adjectives that describe the flowery eargasms you will experience but rather actual numbers and test results. No spam, just actual provable and repeatable facts.

BTW Tess, the scope trace JS posted was NOT a FR performance graph. It was a rather noisy and poor quality scope trace of some sort of notch filtered device with a severe dropoff BEFORE 20k.

Skywalker Sound testimonials. http://www.mitcables.com/reference-l...timonials.html

Chief Scoring Engineer, Director of Engineering, Acoustic Engineering...

If I were so inclined to evaluate cables, it would not be a subjective event at all. But, I just cannot think of a good enough reason to evaluate any cables for the sonic attributes. Waste of time.

So be it and I can respect that. I don't have the time to DBT components, cables included. Who really does this anyway? Not your average consumer. Few forum members in here could maintain the necessary controls to actually perform a reliable test anyway.

I do extended listening tests, switching out the component after living with it for weeks. Rinse, wash, repeat. It works for me and others as well. People that hear my modest system are amazed at what has been achieved. That speaks for itself.

Well, it also could be a serious concern if say a passive preamp is used and its output impedance is the from its volume control, variable and usually very high, capacitance could very well roll off the highs from as low as 2.7 kHz.
Read an interesting analysis of this by James H Hayward, Andrew Marshall's Audio Guide, Summer/Fall, 1994. KimberKable had a reprint of this

He used such a preamp with a 250K pot and about a 63kOhms in mid resistance. Calc that to an amp with not a super high input impedance.

I think Chris was really referring to 'cooking' the cable, not burning it.

And, when one grills these companies about those effects to quantify such effects all they can say is go listen to them at a dealer.

I followed that caper.That never happened, not like that. Most likely it was withdrawn as he would not agree to some of the conditions and had some of his own weird ones.
James Randi has posts on this caper as well maybe you need to read them???

And, that will do what for you? Memory is short for small differences, hence this practice is rather useless. But, DBT has no time limits And, sighted comparisons are just so dinosaur.

Which product name / number of MIT Cables or JPS Labs do they use at Skywalker Sound studio?

"The history and excellence of the MIT company and it's products goes without further review. MIT, with Bruce at the technical helm,has made unequalled strides in high-end audio and especially unequalled in professional audio...
...Bruce Brisson is able to point out events, in his test results, that in every case we could hear. I think that is revolutionary."

Jerry Steckling
Acoustic Engineering, Skywalker Sound



"...the techniques and test and measurement equipment Bruce (Brisson) & MIT utilize have been the only way I have found to accurately predict how the system will sound...
...The relationship works because Bruce and all of us in the Skywalker engineering department have a desire to take audio systems to levels previously not attainable."

Aaron Reiff
Chief Scoring Engineer, Skywalker Sound



" ...Bruce Brisson and MIT cable technology. Bruce worked with our engineers to arrive at a line and speaker level wire system that allowed us to minimize phase errors through the system. The resulting clarity has been a pleasure to all that use that room."

Tim McGovern
Director of Engineering , Skywalker Sound

Well, I have seen Mapleshade's web page. Nothing further needs to be said; oh, except it is full of snake oil products.
What cables are used at Skywalker? Perhaps some THX certified cables?

Oh, and just because they use exotic cables, doesn't mean a thing to the quality of the recordings. Zero.

Isn't it expensive? Is that not a concern?

Who were you replying to? It sure wasn't me, was it?

My questions were,

Ah, testimonials WOW, is that evidence? Maybe I should but some of the stuff Summers sells on TV?
You mean that these two guys are infallible, above reproach, Jerry Steckling
Acoustic Engineering, Skywalker Sound and
Aaron Reiff? Really? How did they test the cables??? Or, their testimonials are the result of getting the studio wires for free?

Maybe I missed the part about using cables made by MIT Cables in their studio.

But you are trying to pass off your subjective evaluation as reliable? Or is that just my memory lapse.


Actually, what others are amazed about doesn't really speak for itself. Just another biased observation, and failure of memory at work.
Unfortunately your protocol, not that it is not DBT, of such time lapses hinders your judgement, in fact. Time passes and memory fades for small changes rather fast. Not my opinion but memory researchers data results.