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New Home Wiring & A/V Setup Help

post #1 of 30
4/9/10 at 4:00pm
Thread Starter 
So i've been trying to figure out the best way to wire my new home, I'm really confused with the wealth of information I've read and I'm trying to see if someone could help me with the right approach?

Basically my 'Phase 1' approach to the project is just doing a pre-wire for the entire home with a centralized A/V system. 'Phase 2' would be integration of Control 4.

I understand the concept of running 2RG6 + 2Cat5e to every TV location for current and future TV's. This will get me 2Coax, 1 Data and 1 Phone. Then for the purpose of just networking running tons of Cat5e or Cat6 where necessary.

Now what I'm confused about is how to connect/terminate the various runs to each location and if I should just be using Cat5e or actually running Component, RCA's etc as well. For Instance:

My main living room with have a 55" Samsung LED-LCD tv mounted above a fireplace. There will be 5.1 Surround mounted in the walls/ceiling with a subwoofer. My thought is I'll need to have a wall plate in back of the TV so you can't see the wires. But what kind of terminations should be there? If I have 2RG6 + 2Cat5e there would that be enough? If so how do I distribute the video to the TV? Do I use a 'balun' here? If so I'll need more Cat5e correct? And if that's the case, do I connect via HDMI or use Component? I've seen products that take a Cat5e able and has a wall plate you connect it to that then has Component, RCA, digital audio, etc ports on it. I'm just really confused at what to use? Then some people will just run a really long component cable from the A/V rack to the TV, but I've heard doing everything with Cat5e and baluns is the way to go. The audio to the surround I'm not worried about because the receiver would be in the central A/V rack with the speaker wires going there.

Also with the above setup. What if I wanted to connect a local DVD player, Xbox or Local Audio Source in that location? I'd have to have Cat5e runs to handle that as well with the use of baluns and wall plates so the DVD/Xbox has something to connect too?

Speaking of the Baluns, I've seen some that are wall plate like, and then are just sort of 'boxes' ... does it matter which ones to purchase? The box ones seem like they'd be ugly to install.

My other concern is if I start WITHOUT Control 4, how am I going to Control the TV, Receiver etc w/ a remote when the Receiver is upstairs in a different room?

Another concern is I want to have a centralized A/V rack that distributes the audio/video thru the home, but what if I sell the place in 10 years and the new owner just has local sources and doesn't want to purchase the equipment for a centralized system? Should I plan for that as well? If I did that, what would I need to do? Run speaker wires from the surrounds to a local 5.1 wallplate alongside the wires running to the A/V rack? Then also having a wall plate that will sent video signals to the TV? It just seems like I'd be setting up 2 systems, no?

If anyone can shed any light I'd appreciate it. I'm trying to wire the home myself in order to save thousands on labor. I know I can do it but I just have some confusion on what needs to be done.

Thanks,
Ryan
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post #2 of 30
4/9/10 at 9:33pm
Running the cables is the easy part.

Figuring out which cables to pull is the hard part.

The cost of hiring out the work is high because of this knowledge.

Read as much as you can, at AVS and cocoontech forums. Try the search terms 'prewire', 'new construction', and 'futureproof'.

If you're considering a professionally installed control system after you move in (you mentioned Control4), that custom installation professional should have significant input during this planning stage. Sometimes, CIs will tell you what cables to pull where, acting as a paid consultant.
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post #3 of 30
4/10/10 at 4:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R33BOOT View Post

I understand the concept of running 2RG6 + 2Cat5e to every TV location for current and future TV's. This will get me 2Coax, 1 Data and 1 Phone. Then for the purpose of just networking running tons of Cat5e or Cat6 where necessary.

The 2 RG6 + 2 Cat5 to every TV is an odd standard for distributed audio and video systems. Most TV's are mounted away from local components so have an RG6 at the TV is a waste of time. This is the new 39CentStandard that you should follow .

Find a closet or cabinet in the room wherever there is or will ever be a TV. (Stereo only zones like the dining room or halls dont need a local rack) This is going to be your "local rack". The local rack is where you would put a surround receiver or Blu-ray player or game console etc. You want it in a closet or cabinet so you dont have to look at it. You want it in the room with the TV so you dont have to run down to the basement to put a disc in to watch. Your central rack is where the amps and switchers and control system will be located.

These are the cables to run from your local rack to your central rack.

2 RG6 - Most likely wont be used but they are there for local cable or satellite boxes, cable modem, whatever.
2 Cat6 - Voice and Data
4 Cat5e - 1 for Audio/2 for Video/1 for Control
1 control system data cable - 4 conductor control cable. Carries power and data.

Note: In surround zones you wire the speaker cables from the speakers to the local rack where the avreceiver will be. In stereo zones with TV's you want to route the speaker cable this way.. from the central rack.. thru the local rack.. to the speakers. Leave a 4 foot loop of speaker cable at the local rack. This loop allows you to separate the zone from the whole house system if you or the new homeowner wishes.

If.. you plan to have volume controls.. you will also need to loop your speaker cable thru that location also. IMO volume controls shouldn't even be considered these days. To each his own.

Then from the local rack to the display you will need a conduit, Cat5 for control & 2 Cat5 or 6 for HDMI balun. The conduit is for future proofing or pulling a manufactured HDMI cable after drywall goes up.

So now you have you cable from the central rack to the local rack to the TV. Feel free to add in as many extra cables as you want. You wont ever be angry about to many cables.

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Now what I'm confused about is how to connect/terminate the various runs to each location and if I should just be using Cat5e or actually running Component, RCA's etc as well. For Instance:

At the central rack you should have patch panels. At the local rack you should have wall plates. Between the local rack and the TV you can do whatever you want. I prefer bulk cable plates to avoid uneccesary connections for HDMI & control and it allows you to bring your cables out. Thats because your space behind a TV is limited and the last thing you need is a bunch of cables stick straight out of jacks. Its cleaner, easier and less expensive in an area where you can get away with it.


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Speaking of the Baluns, I've seen some that are wall plate like, and then are just sort of 'boxes' ... does it matter which ones to purchase? The box ones seem like they'd be ugly to install.

Dont use the inwall ones. The "box ones" are fine. The problem with an inwall balun is that lets say today the cat5 is a component balun and tomorrow its a phone jack. You have to take the wallplate out to change things around. If its a box balun you just unplug it.

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My other concern is if I start WITHOUT Control 4, how am I going to Control the TV, Receiver etc w/ a remote when the Receiver is upstairs in a different room?

Good question.. IMO the receiver should be in the room with the TV hidden inside a cabinet or closet in the local rack. That way you can do things like use a shorter HDMI run to the TV from it, have a local Blu-ray player and cable or satellite box that can connect via HDMI.

As far as control goes.. how about doing control4 in one room for now and adding the rest of the house later? If thats not an option then you can use a rf remote and base station as a temporary solution.

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Another concern is I want to have a centralized A/V rack that distributes the audio/video thru the home, but what if I sell the place in 10 years and the new owner just has local sources and doesn't want to purchase the equipment for a centralized system? Should I plan for that as well? If I did that, what would I need to do? Run speaker wires from the surrounds to a local 5.1 wallplate alongside the wires running to the A/V rack? Then also having a wall plate that will sent video signals to the TV? It just seems like I'd be setting up 2 systems, no?

Use my local rack strategy and you wont run into this issue. The local rack gives you the ability to do either or. You could decide that you want your childs room a separate system and disconnect it from the whole house system by putting in a stereo receiver and local sources so you don't have to scroll thru all of their rap music on the media server. When they head off to college you can reattach it to the whole house system and convert their room to your den .

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If anyone can shed any light I'd appreciate it. I'm trying to wire the home myself in order to save thousands on labor. I know I can do it but I just have some confusion on what needs to be done.

Saving thousands on labor is always a good thing when you have the time to do it yourself. The problem with it is that you run the risk of missing a cable. Its going to suck to make it to the end of the road and find out you have to give up a very cool feature because you forgot to run a single cat5. My post here covers some of the basics (in my opinion) but without meeting with you, walking around your house, presenting ideas and technologies that you may not even be aware of.. there is no way to know what cables you need in place.

As an example.. do you plan to control your garage doors from your Control4 system? How about your gate? Do you know where you should locate cameras? Do you know what types of cameras are available and how to wire them? Have you thought about wired vs wireless lighting and climate control? How about AM radio? I have yet to install and AM tuner that works without having a cable that goes all the way to the attic for an antenna. This is a seemingly meaningless issue until you find out all your wife cares about is listening to her favorite AM radio show.

My advice to you and everyone looking to wire their own house is to hire someone to plan the system for you. This person will meet with you in person or over the phone, they will listen to your wants/needs/make suggestions etc and then design a system for you with wiring schematics so that you dont miss anything.

I dont know many Control4 guys and i don't know any in your neck of the woods. The 2 C4 guys i know are in other states and i dont know if they offer "system engineering" services. I would start with the local guys and see if anyone bites. If not i can give you the contact details of both of the C4 dealers and you can talk with them.

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Thanks,
Ryan

Good luck and keep us posted.. we like pics
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post #4 of 30
4/10/10 at 4:42pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys!

The local rack + central rack option sounds like a really good idea and would solve some of my problems. But the problem is with the house I'm building I wouldn't be able to do that. There isn't 1 bit of closet space, it's a very 'modern' home and I'm trying to keep it as clean as possible. So I need to do the central rack and that's it because I don't want to buy tv stands for each room. I plan on just having LCD's in each as time goes on. Thanks for the suggestion tho... I wish I could do it that way.

I understand your suggestions for the wires to run to each TV location. Now should I run more than 1 'drop' in each room. Lets say there is 2 possible locations for TV, should I run 2 drops of each of the cables? Or should I maybe just stick to putting extra Cat6 for phone/data in multiple locations in the room?

The volume controlling can all be done at the central rack via Control 4, so I won't be using hardware controls in the walls, I hate that anyway.

I love your idea about having the 'bulk cable plates' behind the TV location, this is much cheaper. My concern is if I'm prewiring for TV's that aren't there yet, then I'll see wiring hanging out of the wall, which I don't want to do. Another concern is I'm trying to make the house as 'air-tight' as possible and this would let air pass thru the framing. I've found some recessed boxes at AV-Express, looks like I could do the wall plates and still have room.

Ok I'll you 'boxed' baluns... in doing so that basically requires me to mount it to the wall or in back of the TV correct?

I'm considering doing the Control 4 just in 1 location for now, I agree..

I've met with 3 C4 dealers thus far that I've given all my ideas too, etc. Each guy has his own way he thinks the system should be implemented. The problem is they all want you to buy there hardware and recommended speakers, etc. For example I don't want to spend $2000 on a 5.1 speaker system in a bedroom, I'm happy with just a Polk setup that might cost me $600 or something. These dealers seem to be just used to dealing with people that have tons of money, not DIY'ers or people who know they don't need the expensive stuff, you know what I mean?

I'm trying to get these dealers to just do the 'engineering' part of it and let me do all the wiring. But most are reluctant, they want to do everything. But what doesn't make any sense is if I purchased a home that was already pre-wired and then I wanted them to integrate C4, of course they would do the work... so why do they care if I wire the house myself or not? They wouldn't be responsible u know? I just don't get it...

I think maybe what I'll do is make a little single room diagram of my home and put where I think the TV, speakers, network and a/v connections are going to go and then get some feedback from forum members if that's the right way to go? I think this would help me out allot...

Again, thanks for the insights guys, keep them coming!
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post #5 of 30
4/10/10 at 5:43pm
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The local rack + central rack option sounds like a really good idea and would solve some of my problems. But the problem is with the house I'm building I wouldn't be able to do that. There isn't 1 bit of closet space, it's a very 'modern' home and I'm trying to keep it as clean as possible. So I need to do the central rack and that's it because I don't want to buy tv stands for each room. I plan on just having LCD's in each as time goes on. Thanks for the suggestion tho... I wish I could do it that way.

If you cant do the local rack then you will need to run the 2RG6 to the TV location to cover you if you sell the house. I dont really know what to tell you about the speaker cables. If the new buyer doesnt want a centralized system they wont be able to use the in-ceiling/in-wall speakers to watch TV.

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I understand your suggestions for the wires to run to each TV location. Now should I run more than 1 'drop' in each room. Lets say there is 2 possible locations for TV, should I run 2 drops of each of the cables? Or should I maybe just stick to putting extra Cat6 for phone/data in multiple locations in the room?

If you cant decide where the TV is going to go then yes i would suggest wiring both locations.

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The volume controlling can all be done at the central rack via Control 4, so I won't be using hardware controls in the walls, I hate that anyway.

Exactly.. thats why i hate the idea of putting in volume controls in 2010.

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I love your idea about having the 'bulk cable plates' behind the TV location, this is much cheaper. My concern is if I'm prewiring for TV's that aren't there yet, then I'll see wiring hanging out of the wall, which I don't want to do. Another concern is I'm trying to make the house as 'air-tight' as possible and this would let air pass thru the framing. I've found some recessed boxes at AV-Express, looks like I could do the wall plates and still have room.

A blank wall plate with the cables tucked inside would work in locations where the TV is not installed and you can insulate the opening for the bulk cable plate by stuffing a little in the opening.

The issue with recessed boxes is that you now have to deal with the stand-off for the RG6 & Cat5 cables inside the wall where space is even more limited. Many use this option and bend the heck out of their RG6 and Cat cable trying to get the plate on. Or you have to add more expense and an additional termination point with right angle connectors.

This is a personal preference issue so if budget allows you can do it however you wish.

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Ok I'll you 'boxed' baluns... in doing so that basically requires me to mount it to the wall or in back of the TV correct?

Yes. I usually use a scotch blok to secure the balun to the back of the TV. I make nice little jumpers from the balun to the TV inputs and then a single Cat5 patch cable from the wallplate to the Balun.

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I've met with 3 C4 dealers thus far that I've given all my ideas too, etc. Each guy has his own way he thinks the system should be implemented. The problem is they all want you to buy there hardware and recommended speakers, etc. For example I don't want to spend $2000 on a 5.1 speaker system in a bedroom, I'm happy with just a Polk setup that might cost me $600 or something. These dealers seem to be just used to dealing with people that have tons of money, not DIY'ers or people who know they don't need the expensive stuff, you know what I mean?

I'm trying to get these dealers to just do the 'engineering' part of it and let me do all the wiring. But most are reluctant, they want to do everything. But what doesn't make any sense is if I purchased a home that was already pre-wired and then I wanted them to integrate C4, of course they would do the work... so why do they care if I wire the house myself or not? They wouldn't be responsible u know? I just don't get it...

This is because they have built their business model around every aspect of the project. What your not thinking about is that if this was a house already wired they would charge you a fee for discovery to see what cables are in the house. They would need to send a team out to disconnect everything, trace and label every cable. On top of that they still may need to pull new cable. So it can become significantly more expensive then if they just bid a new project and run all the cables at once. As an example. Lets say you have 3 cat5's at a TV already but you need 4. It takes them as much time in labor to pull that single cable is it would to pull 4.

Its not so much that they are used to dealing with clients with tons of money but more that they are used to being a provider of a complete solution. Most clients are not DIY and they don't know Control4 from X-10 and they don't care to know the differences. They just want to be able to control their home theater and lighting. Most clients dont call and ask about a Control4 system. They call and say "i want a theater and i want to be able to control lights and climate" and the integrator makes it happen.

As for the example you gave.. not sure what the issue there is.. set your budget for speakers in the bedroom at $600 and be done with it. If they are not polk dealers then you may have to compromise and agree to use a similarly priced speaker from the lines that they carry. Most dealers wont allow you to supply products yourself and those who do typically charge a separate time & materials fee to work with the product. This is because there is always a learning curve with every product. When they give you a bid for the labor on a home theater the cost is lower because they are familiar with all products being used. If they have to spend an hour reading the manual, another hour trying to find IR codes for it and possibly more time & parts trying to work around a feature that it doesn't have compared to the brand they carry.

If the product you supply fails then you will typically have to deal with getting it serviced yourself and be charged an additional installation fee for reinstalling the product. One service call usually ends up costing more than any savings achieved by sourcing the product yourself so its a gamble.

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I think maybe what I'll do is make a little single room diagram of my home and put where I think the TV, speakers, network and a/v connections are going to go and then get some feedback from forum members if that's the right way to go? I think this would help me out allot...

Again, thanks for the insights guys, keep them coming!

If you sketch out your whole house and draw in TV's speakers where you want touchpanels or remotes and data jacks etc then maybe create a wishlist of features you want like lighting/hvac/security etc it will give you a better idea of what cables you need to run. But i still recommended you try to find someone to engineer the system for you.
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post #6 of 30
4/12/10 at 9:42am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the reply again. That makes total sense about the tucking the cable inside a wall plate for now for those unused spots. I wouldn't even have to bother terminating them or anything until those rooms are used. It also seems allot easier to use the bulk cable plates so you're not adding additional costs for more terminations.

You said this:
Quote:


Yes. I usually use a scotch blok to secure the balun to the back of the TV. I make nice little jumpers from the balun to the TV inputs and then a single Cat5 patch cable from the wallplate to the Balun.

If your using bulk wall plates, why would u need the patch cable? If I'm understanding correctly, you would just pull that Cat5 cable thru the bulk wall plate and insert directly into the balun, then balun to TV. With your scenario you are actually terminating into a wall plate first, which you advised against? Or am I reading this wrong?

I'm trying to see which out of the 3 companies I'm dealing with is going to give me the most flexibility and I'm going to go with them. I contacted all 3 and told them I'd like to do the wiring install myself to save on labor, but agree to go into contract with them if they are willing to do the diagrams and system design with me to get the pre-wire done initially. Then after that's done slowly finish the project room by room when I have the cash!

Thanks again...
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post #7 of 30
4/12/10 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R33BOOT View Post

You said this:

If your using bulk wall plates, why would u need the patch cable? If I'm understanding correctly, you would just pull that Cat5 cable thru the bulk wall plate and insert directly into the balun, then balun to TV. With your scenario you are actually terminating into a wall plate first, which you advised against? Or am I reading this wrong?

The only time i would use a wall plate with keystone jacks would be in a situation like a kitchen counter where the plate is visible. In this scenario you will have a cat5 patch cable. With a wall mounted TV and bulk cable plates there will not be a patch cable.

While we are on the subject.. take a look at this product. I use this to 'clean up' the multiple cables coming from the bulk cable plate. It puts them in a nice single bundle thats easy to manage. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=082-336 . This is great for articulating mounts and TV's that are mounted in places where you can see the cables behind them. Instead of 5 different color cables you have a single black bundle.

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I'm trying to see which out of the 3 companies I'm dealing with is going to give me the most flexibility and I'm going to go with them. I contacted all 3 and told them I'd like to do the wiring install myself to save on labor, but agree to go into contract with them if they are willing to do the diagrams and system design with me to get the pre-wire done initially. Then after that's done slowly finish the project room by room when I have the cash!

Thanks again...

They should play ball if you let them tell you how to wire the house. That way they will know you are running the correct cables for the system they are proposing.
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post #8 of 30
4/12/10 at 11:35am
Thread Starter 
Ok we are on the same page then thanks. Haha that sleeving I've used that for my Pro-Audio system in my Civic when I used to compete for IASCA.

With the wiring, yes I'm hoping to plan out the system with them and wire it how they would like it as long as I'm getting all the wire spots I want and what they recommend. I'm just trying to get them to agree to let me do all the wiring that's all. Hopefully I'll know soon if they are going to be willing to do that with me or not. I got a very detailed wiring quote from the company, but it seems very expensive, like $300 for an 'TV Wiring Bundle' and stuff like that. It doesn't seem like they use bulk cable or are actually running video/audio cables and not Cat5. I've asked him to give me details of what each wiring bundle is and awaiting to hear a response.

Thanks for all your help!
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post #9 of 30
4/14/10 at 8:25am
As someone in a very similar situation as R33BOOT, I just wanted to publicly thank 39CentStamp for the incredibly helpful information presented in this thread.

Seriously, great stuff... really spells out what I was looking for.

And thanks to R33BOOT for asking all the right questions.
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post #10 of 30
4/14/10 at 8:54am
Thread Starter 
I got an updated quote from the integrator for just the pre-wire. He took out all the labor and just put the materials and design time in. But it seems really high just for wires to be honest.

He has stuff like this in there:
TV Regular Prewire Bundle (5 mini-coax, Cat6, dual cat5e, shielded cat5e, and Dual regular coax) 50ft $220.

Then for main TV he has an 'Advanced' Bundle with includes the above plus 1 extra cat6 and 2 extra cat5e $265

Then he has like 5.1 Surround Speaker bundle $177.

The way he has it listed is awesome, with line items for everything but the wiring seems super expensive to me when I can go out and by a 1000' roll of Cat 5/6, Speaker wires, Coax for around $100-150 per roll or so.

It might be the bundles are stuff they put together to have all those wires in 1 sleeve so it's more expensive and easier to install? Not sure... but to me its like if it's going to cost $1500 LESS to run bulk cable, just more labor time which I'm doing myself, why pay the extra for the bundles? I asked him these same questions and waiting a reply.

What do you guys think?
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post #11 of 30
4/14/10 at 9:48am
The bundles are exactly what they sound like... all the cables are grouped together and either zip tied or taped for the entire length of the run. Makes installation, organization and labeling much simpler.

So the $220/$265 prices are without labor? Seems a little high, but not unreasonable. $300/bundle, installed would be a fair price from what I've seen.
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post #12 of 30
4/14/10 at 1:44pm
Call your local electric supply store (or 2 or 3) and get quotes for those siamese cables.
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post #13 of 30
4/14/10 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
I was actually thinking about seeing what an electrical/lighting supply company could get. Thanks!

What's Mini-Coax and is that even worth including that?

Also, lets say I wanted to have the ability to connect 2 local sources, ie 1 Blu-Ray player and 1 Xbox 360, to the centralized system. What cable would I need for that?

Would I need 2 extra Cat5e/6 for each? or more? I want to make sure I give each TV location the ability to send back a couple of local sources.

I finally got word back from the integrator, he's willing to just work with me as a system designer and final integrator leaving the installation up to me. The next hurdle is wiring and if he's ok with me buying bulk wiring instead of using his bundles since it's way cheaper.

Thanks for all your help guys!
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post #14 of 30
4/14/10 at 6:17pm
Thread Starter 
On another note, I'm a bit confused on the difference between having an 'A/V Rack' and then having a 'Central Wiring Hub' could anyone explain the difference?

I've been seeing tutorials and stuff on how people have a centralized hub where all there cable, phone lines and data come into and are organized neatly. Something like this:
http://www.cedi.tv/Portals/0/image_dva_thumb_2.jpg

Now are u supposed to have that, and also an 'a/v rack'? Why would you have both?

I guess I'm a bit confused as to wether you would have both or just 1 large rack with like rack-mountable patch panels, etc. Also with those hubs you have all the coax running into it and stuff like that so how can I hook that into let's say a Control 4 System? Just confused I guess...

I want to have basically 1 or 2 cable boxes that handle the entire house, etc and wondering if you need both how do they interact?
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post #15 of 30
4/15/10 at 12:17am
Isn't it much easier to terminate a cat5e cable as a keystone jack in a wall plate than as a rj45 plug? Then you just buy a pre-made patch cable to run from the keystone jack to the balun. That's what I did and then just mounted the balun to the back of the TV using velcro. And, I haven't noticed any signal loss using patch cables.

I totally concur with not using wall plate baluns. It gives you much more flexibility and ease of changing the baluns later if you want to (and, taking them with you when you move). Also, you can more easily convert, if you are using keystone jacks, the jacks to a different use (from video and IR to telephone or data) at a later date. Also, with HDMI baluns you usually need 2 cat5e or 2 cat6 cables (cat6 is preferable as it can usually handle a 1920x1080 progressive signal, such as that coming out of a blu-ray or xbox player, for a longer distance than a cat5e cable can) for the video signal and then a separate cat5e for the IR control. With component video you only need 2 cables for the video signal and IR control. So that's either 2 or 3 ethernet cables running from the wallplate to the balun. Also, for the IR control you usually need to have it separately powered (along with power for the TV) so that means having a receptacle close by. All those wires need to be secured somehow and if your TV mount extends out from the wall at all you need to use ties to secure them to the mount. And for aesthetics you should then place the receptacle not too far from the wallplate where the ethernet wires are coming out of.
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post #16 of 30
4/16/10 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp View Post

These are the cables to run from your local rack to your central rack.
...
2 RG6
2 Cat6 - Voice and Data
4 Cat5e - 1 for Audio/2 for Video/1 for Control
1 control system data cable - 4 conductor control cable. Carries power and data.
...

Wouldn't you want to use the 2 Cat6 for the video, given the higher bandwidth/speed requirements of video (especially HDMI) and use the 4 Cat5e for the 1 Audio, 1 Voice, 1 Data and 1 Control, which all have low bandwidth/speed requrements?

Also, even though RG6 is becoming outdated in some ways, I do agree with you that it is still good to run a couple of them. This allows device such as an cable or satellite box to be installed locally in the room. Also, you can connect cams to RG6 and then connect the RG6 to the cable-in on the TV and switch to a different source on the remote to view the cam instead of paying the money to have a device which injects the cam channel into the channel stream.

I also a
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post #17 of 30
4/17/10 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post

Wouldn't you want to use the 2 Cat6 for the video, given the higher bandwidth/speed requirements of video (especially HDMI) and use the 4 Cat5e for the 1 Audio, 1 Voice, 1 Data and 1 Control, which all have low bandwidth/speed requrements?

Its still very much a transitional period where component is still being used for whole house video distribution. The only reliable HDMI distribution product i am aware of is Crestron DM which isn't a good fit for everyone.

Cat5e for component/composite. Cat6 for voice and data. And now that Crestron has HDMI distribution we use fiber for that.

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Also, even though RG6 is becoming outdated in some ways, I do agree with you that it is still good to run a couple of them. This allows device such as an cable or satellite box to be installed locally in the room. Also, you can connect cams to RG6 and then connect the RG6 to the cable-in on the TV and switch to a different source on the remote to view the cam instead of paying the money to have a device which injects the cam channel into the channel stream.

I also a

I don't do cameras directly connected to displays or any "injection" stuff. I use a matrix switch for all video distribution. In a component distribution system composite cameras are upscaled and then wired to a component input on the video switcher to avoid the need to switch inputs on the display when going from Blu-ray to a surveillance camera for example.
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post #18 of 30
4/17/10 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp View Post

Its still very much a transitional period where component is still being used for whole house video distribution. The only reliable HDMI distribution product i am aware of is Crestron DM which isn't a good fit for everyone.

I thought Audio Authority's Avatrix product did HDMI over cat5e/6 well, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp View Post

I don't do cameras directly connected to displays or any "injection" stuff. I use a matrix switch for all video distribution. In a component distribution system composite cameras are upscaled and then wired to a component input on the video switcher to avoid the need to switch inputs on the display when going from Blu-ray to a surveillance camera for example.

But don't you still have to switch the source from Blu-Ray to the camera by clicking the remote? If the surveillance camera was connected to the TV using RG6 it's still a click of the remote too but I was just wondering how your method of changing to the cam is any different (other than that the cam in your configuration is connected to the matrix switch instead of to the TV.) Thanks.
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post #19 of 30
4/17/10 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post

I thought Audio Authority's Avatrix product did HDMI over cat5e/6 well, no?

No, it just does component over cate5e/6. The AVX-661 (which I own) has DVI and component, but the DVI is only output to the main zone connected directly to the AVAtrix. It does not convert DVI to component and send the signal over cat5e/6.
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post #20 of 30
4/18/10 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by R33BOOT View Post

I got an updated quote from the integrator for just the pre-wire. He took out all the labor and just put the materials and design time in. But it seems really high just for wires to be honest.

He has stuff like this in there:
TV Regular Prewire Bundle (5 mini-coax, Cat6, dual cat5e, shielded cat5e, and Dual regular coax) 50ft $220.

Then for main TV he has an 'Advanced' Bundle with includes the above plus 1 extra cat6 and 2 extra cat5e $265

Then he has like 5.1 Surround Speaker bundle $177.

The way he has it listed is awesome, with line items for everything but the wiring seems super expensive to me when I can go out and by a 1000' roll of Cat 5/6, Speaker wires, Coax for around $100-150 per roll or so.

It might be the bundles are stuff they put together to have all those wires in 1 sleeve so it's more expensive and easier to install? Not sure... but to me its like if it's going to cost $1500 LESS to run bulk cable, just more labor time which I'm doing myself, why pay the extra for the bundles? I asked him these same questions and waiting a reply.

What do you guys think?



I think the labor is in that quote... It is just built into the cables. However, that may not a bad price but I don't know how long your runs are and what you are trying to do.
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post #21 of 30
4/18/10 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp View Post

The 2 RG6 + 2 Cat5 to every TV is an odd standard for distributed audio and video systems. Most TV's are mounted away from local components so have an RG6 at the TV is a waste of time. This is the new 39CentStandard that you should follow .

Find a closet or cabinet in the room wherever there is or will ever be a TV. (Stereo only zones like the dining room or halls dont need a local rack) This is going to be your "local rack". The local rack is where you would put a surround receiver or Blu-ray player or game console etc. You want it in a closet or cabinet so you dont have to look at it. You want it in the room with the TV so you dont have to run down to the basement to put a disc in to watch. Your central rack is where the amps and switchers and control system will be located.

These are the cables to run from your local rack to your central rack.

2 RG6 - Most likely wont be used but they are there for local cable or satellite boxes, cable modem, whatever.
2 Cat6 - Voice and Data
4 Cat5e - 1 for Audio/2 for Video/1 for Control
1 control system data cable - 4 conductor control cable. Carries power and data.

Note: In surround zones you wire the speaker cables from the speakers to the local rack where the avreceiver will be. In stereo zones with TV's you want to route the speaker cable this way.. from the central rack.. thru the local rack.. to the speakers. Leave a 4 foot loop of speaker cable at the local rack. This loop allows you to separate the zone from the whole house system if you or the new homeowner wishes.

If.. you plan to have volume controls.. you will also need to loop your speaker cable thru that location also. IMO volume controls shouldn't even be considered these days. To each his own.

Then from the local rack to the display you will need a conduit, Cat5 for control & 2 Cat5 or 6 for HDMI balun. The conduit is for future proofing or pulling a manufactured HDMI cable after drywall goes up.

So now you have you cable from the central rack to the local rack to the TV. Feel free to add in as many extra cables as you want. You wont ever be angry about to many cables.



At the central rack you should have patch panels. At the local rack you should have wall plates. Between the local rack and the TV you can do whatever you want. I prefer bulk cable plates to avoid uneccesary connections for HDMI & control and it allows you to bring your cables out. Thats because your space behind a TV is limited and the last thing you need is a bunch of cables stick straight out of jacks. Its cleaner, easier and less expensive in an area where you can get away with it.




Dont use the inwall ones. The "box ones" are fine. The problem with an inwall balun is that lets say today the cat5 is a component balun and tomorrow its a phone jack. You have to take the wallplate out to change things around. If its a box balun you just unplug it.



Good question.. IMO the receiver should be in the room with the TV hidden inside a cabinet or closet in the local rack. That way you can do things like use a shorter HDMI run to the TV from it, have a local Blu-ray player and cable or satellite box that can connect via HDMI.

As far as control goes.. how about doing control4 in one room for now and adding the rest of the house later? If thats not an option then you can use a rf remote and base station as a temporary solution.



Use my local rack strategy and you wont run into this issue. The local rack gives you the ability to do either or. You could decide that you want your childs room a separate system and disconnect it from the whole house system by putting in a stereo receiver and local sources so you don't have to scroll thru all of their rap music on the media server. When they head off to college you can reattach it to the whole house system and convert their room to your den .



Saving thousands on labor is always a good thing when you have the time to do it yourself. The problem with it is that you run the risk of missing a cable. Its going to suck to make it to the end of the road and find out you have to give up a very cool feature because you forgot to run a single cat5. My post here covers some of the basics (in my opinion) but without meeting with you, walking around your house, presenting ideas and technologies that you may not even be aware of.. there is no way to know what cables you need in place.

As an example.. do you plan to control your garage doors from your Control4 system? How about your gate? Do you know where you should locate cameras? Do you know what types of cameras are available and how to wire them? Have you thought about wired vs wireless lighting and climate control? How about AM radio? I have yet to install and AM tuner that works without having a cable that goes all the way to the attic for an antenna. This is a seemingly meaningless issue until you find out all your wife cares about is listening to her favorite AM radio show.

My advice to you and everyone looking to wire their own house is to hire someone to plan the system for you. This person will meet with you in person or over the phone, they will listen to your wants/needs/make suggestions etc and then design a system for you with wiring schematics so that you dont miss anything.

I dont know many Control4 guys and i don't know any in your neck of the woods. The 2 C4 guys i know are in other states and i dont know if they offer "system engineering" services. I would start with the local guys and see if anyone bites. If not i can give you the contact details of both of the C4 dealers and you can talk with them.



Good luck and keep us posted.. we like pics


Great stuff. I wish I had seen this reply before I spent 40+ hours trying to figure out all this stuff out.
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post #22 of 30
4/19/10 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post

I thought Audio Authority's Avatrix product did HDMI over cat5e/6 well, no?

I dont know. What i do know is that i see one post after another where guys complain about every HDMI distribution product available. I look at products from a CI perspective. If the Crestron stuff works immediately after installation then the labor is lower. This lowered labor almost always make it more cost effective to use a more expensive product. I have no first hand experience with Avatrix so i cant comment on the product specifically. Do you have links to forum posts that discuss it working well?


Quote:


But don't you still have to switch the source from Blu-Ray to the camera by clicking the remote? If the surveillance camera was connected to the TV using RG6 it's still a click of the remote too but I was just wondering how your method of changing to the cam is any different (other than that the cam in your configuration is connected to the matrix switch instead of to the TV.) Thanks.

You have to press a button to do anything so yes you still need to press a button .

The reason for upconverting the camera and routing it thru the video matrix switch is that a video switcher can switch from one source to another instantly. Switching inputs on a TV is a crap shoot and can be anywhere from 1 to 15 seconds.

A samsung LCD i installed several years ago took 14 seconds from being powered on before it would accept an input command. If i were to have sent composite and component to this TV all of my startup macros would require a 15 second delay.

By upconverting everything to component and allowing the video switcher to handle... switching.. All i need to do is turn my TV ON and i avoid the delay.

With a ditributed audio video system the TV should be treated as a display, not a tuner or a switcher IMO. Tuners and switchers should be centrally located. I personally am not a fan of "injection" for anything. This IMO is a hack/ work around for when you dont have the correct wire in place.
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post #23 of 30
4/19/10 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp View Post

I dont know. What i do know is that i see one post after another where guys complain about every HDMI distribution product available. I look at products from a CI perspective. If the Crestron stuff works immediately after installation then the labor is lower. This lowered labor almost always make it more cost effective to use a more expensive product. I have no first hand experience with Avatrix so i cant comment on the product specifically. Do you have links to forum posts that discuss it working well?

I do not and, actually, I am a big component video proponent for distributed video. Distributed HDMI has so many versions and compatibility issues and appears to have problems all the time. I have had some heated arguments with people on here about using component instead of HDMI and personally only use HDMI where there is a direct connection from the TV to a source device. I use both SageTV (over ethernet) myself now, but previous to that used ethernet and component video baluns and they always worked great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp View Post

You have to press a button to do anything so yes you still need to press a button .

The reason for upconverting the camera and routing it thru the video matrix switch is that a video switcher can switch from one source to another instantly. Switching inputs on a TV is a crap shoot and can be anywhere from 1 to 15 seconds.

A samsung LCD i installed several years ago took 14 seconds from being powered on before it would accept an input command. If i were to have sent composite and component to this TV all of my startup macros would require a 15 second delay.

By upconverting everything to component and allowing the video switcher to handle... switching.. All i need to do is turn my TV ON and i avoid the delay.

With a ditributed audio video system the TV should be treated as a display, not a tuner or a switcher IMO. Tuners and switchers should be centrally located. I personally am not a fan of "injection" for anything. This IMO is a hack/ work around for when you dont have the correct wire in place.

Ah ok. That makes sense. Since I use SageTV then I only have the choice of injecting the cam feed onto a video channel at the head end (ie cable box or PVR) or into the TV using RG6.
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post #24 of 30
4/29/10 at 6:30pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all your help guys this is really great stuff!

So if I'm reading correctly, and I want to do distibuted video, it's safe to say go with a Component setup video switcher. I believe that's why in the quote the integrator gave me had 'Mini-Coax' going to each TV location. So it seems he wants to run full-length Component + RCA cables to each TV location and that's why it must seem expensive? Why would he do that instead of using a Cat5e/6 and then using Balun's? Hmm...

Anyway another question about placement of either the wall plates or cables on the wall next to each TV location. Let's say I have a couple of bedrooms that I want to mount LCD TV's onto the wall in the future and it's possible that their might be a couple of local sources in those rooms (game system, DVD player, etc). Should I run the wires and terminate in back of the TV directly or put it in at a standard height above the floor? What is your suggestion? If I put them in the back of the TV then I have to run cables up from the local sources to plug into the wall plates, same would go for if I put the wall plates near the ground. Would it be cleaner if I put the wall plates and run cables near the ground so the local sources can plug in? Then just run the cables needed to the TV itself and cover them with a plastic cover up the wall? or Should I split the cable runs and do both near the ground for the local sources as well as just the TV video/audio in back of the TV?

So many options! Again thanks for all your help...
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post #25 of 30
4/30/10 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R33BOOT View Post

So if I'm reading correctly, and I want to do distibuted video, it's safe to say go with a Component setup video switcher. I believe that's why in the quote the integrator gave me had 'Mini-Coax' going to each TV location. So it seems he wants to run full-length Component + RCA cables to each TV location and that's why it must seem expensive? Why would he do that instead of using a Cat5e/6 and then using Balun's? Hmm...

Yes, component video is pretty bullet-proof. I prefer cat5e/6 over mini-coax because, as you say, you can just install baluns at each end. And, also, it gives you options for the future as with the ethernet cabling already installed you can change the baluns any time (say, to HDMI baluns if you want to, which means you'd need a different switch too). Baluns will cost you about $200/pair give or take, then you'll still need IR control. You should do a cost comparison of ethernet + baluns vs minicoax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R33BOOT View Post

Anyway another question about placement of either the wall plates or cables on the wall next to each TV location. Let's say I have a couple of bedrooms that I want to mount LCD TV's onto the wall in the future and it's possible that their might be a couple of local sources in those rooms (game system, DVD player, etc). Should I run the wires and terminate in back of the TV directly or put it in at a standard height above the floor? What is your suggestion? If I put them in the back of the TV then I have to run cables up from the local sources to plug into the wall plates, same would go for if I put the wall plates near the ground. Would it be cleaner if I put the wall plates and run cables near the ground so the local sources can plug in? Then just run the cables needed to the TV itself and cover them with a plastic cover up the wall? or Should I split the cable runs and do both near the ground for the local sources as well as just the TV video/audio in back of the TV?

So many options! Again thanks for all your help...

You can really do either. Depends on how clean a look you want.
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post #26 of 30
4/30/10 at 8:56am
Thread Starter 
Ok thanks. Now I've read tho that Component is going bye bye? It seems like the most cost effective way is to do an audio/video matrix switch that does component over Cat5e/6 to every TV. I've done some looking into the HDMI audio/video over Cat5e/6 and it seems much more expensive.

I'm just worried I keep hearing Component isn't going to be supported next year and you won't be able to get 1080p across because of the players restricting the video signal? Then I see the JAP solution, but that's more expensive as well because it's like $700 for a transmitter/receiver pair, and you'll need another Switch, plus a separate Audio switch to get your sources to multiple receivers, etc.

Component over the Cat5e/6 seems the best way right now, I'm just worried about if I pickup and buy new TV or blu ray in 5 years, the new equipment isn't going to be compatible?
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post #27 of 30
4/30/10 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R33BOOT View Post

Ok thanks. Now I've read tho that Component is going bye bye? It seems like the most cost effective way is to do an audio/video matrix switch that does component over Cat5e/6 to every TV. I've done some looking into the HDMI audio/video over Cat5e/6 and it seems much more expensive.

I'm just worried I keep hearing Component isn't going to be supported next year and you won't be able to get 1080p across because of the players restricting the video signal? Then I see the JAP solution, but that's more expensive as well because it's like $700 for a transmitter/receiver pair, and you'll need another Switch, plus a separate Audio switch to get your sources to multiple receivers, etc.

Component over the Cat5e/6 seems the best way right now, I'm just worried about if I pickup and buy new TV or blu ray in 5 years, the new equipment isn't going to be compatible?

I hear stories about that too all the time, but it doesn't worry me as the easy solution is just to keep your blu-ray players local and connect them via HDMI to the local HDTV and distribute the HDTV cable signal (which is not moving to 1080p in a very long time - maybe a decade or two) by using component video baluns and ethernet. In any event, with ethernet in the walls (choose cat6 if you eventually want to distribute 1080p over HDMI) you can just change the baluns anytime, so you are 'future-proofed' for that. Personally, I don't like to have to run to another room to change the blu-ray disc, etc, and they are so cheap you can have one beside each TV.

Is it the blu-ray 1080p signal you want to distribute to multiple rooms?
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post #28 of 30
4/30/10 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
Well,
My plan is to have 1 centralized A/V rack with multiple sources being able to be shown on multiple TV's thru the house.

So lets say I have a Apple TV, 2 Direct TV boxes, MAC, etc as sources and then each of those can be accessed by various TV's around the house.

When you say 'local' blu-ray' source do you mean hooking it up directly to the TV via HDMI? in that case I don't think that work work for me. Reason being is most of the TV's in the house will have a receiver connected as well. So if I connect a 'local source' somehow that audio/video needs to go back to my central rack first to be connected to the receiver, then out the the TV and 5.1 speakers correct? That's the whole purpose of a centralized rack isn't it? My plan is to use Control 4 to control everything as well.

So I'd like to have a blu-ray player accessible right next to certain TV's in the house, as well as in my upstairs bedroom I'll need hookups for 'local sources' like an xbox 360 and ps3 just for that room. Not really sure how to accomplish that?
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post #29 of 30
5/3/10 at 11:23am
REEBOOT, maybe you should give 39centstamp a call. Sounds like he may be willing do to some consulting work, for a fee.
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post #30 of 30
5/3/10 at 3:56pm
I feel like I am preaching this every time I turn around:

While the AACS analog sunset is only for Blu-Ray right now, I don't think cable/sat boxes (premium channels are really pusing for it), or streaming content are going to be putting out full resolution on component video for long. With new MacBook Pro's, you have to have HDCP-protected content path to play HD iTunes movies.

I'd give it 2 to 3 years before cable and other content providers really start locking down their outputs, if not sooner. Yes, HDMI has problems, but don't install component and expect to be happy with it for very long.
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