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Lcd pj 3d fp??

post #1 of 6
Thread Starter 
Thread title is a bit of an abreviation overload but.....

Disregarding the data PJ's with high refresh rate capable of 3D in combo with Nvidia's 3D system, any talk I have heard of new 3D front projection PJ's in the pipeline are DLP's. I've even read some people say any new 1080p 3D PJ's have to be DLP's. Obviously this means that we are looking mucho $$$

Is there any technical reason that cheaper LCD 1080p projectors cannot be 3D capable. Now I know the current gen of 1080p LCD PJ's are not capable of 3D because of the refresh rate and thus can't work with 120hz(60hz per eye) shutter systems. I also know that LCD's in general might never be capable of Polorized 3D because there is already some funky polorization going on inside the 3LCD panel optical blocks which might prevent 3D polorization.

However, is it technically feasible for the likes of Panasonic for instance to come up with a 120hz capable version of the AE4000 (ie. 3D AE5000) and within the same prize range give or take a few hundred bucks. Polorized systems are moot in terms of Panasonic who are committed to Shutter Glasses systems anyway.

Does anyone think it possible that we might see a 3D 1080p 3LCD AE5000 with a couple of pairs of shutter glasses launched with much fanfare at Cedia in Sept/Oct at a price that will throw the cat among the pidgeons
post #2 of 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by calibos View Post

Thread title is a bit of an abreviation overload but.....

Disregarding the data PJ's with high refresh rate capable of 3D in combo with Nvidia's 3D system, any talk I have heard of new 3D front projection PJ's in the pipeline are DLP's. I've even read some people say any new 1080p 3D PJ's have to be DLP's. Obviously this means that we are looking mucho $$$

Is there any technical reason that cheaper LCD 1080p projectors cannot be 3D capable. Now I know the current gen of 1080p LCD PJ's are not capable of 3D because of the refresh rate and thus can't work with 120hz(60hz per eye) shutter systems. I also know that LCD's in general might never be capable of Polorized 3D because there is already some funky polorization going on inside the 3LCD panel optical blocks which might prevent 3D polorization.

However, is it technically feasible for the likes of Panasonic for instance to come up with a 120hz capable version of the AE4000 (ie. 3D AE5000) and within the same prize range give or take a few hundred bucks. Polorized systems are moot in terms of Panasonic who are committed to Shutter Glasses systems anyway.

Does anyone think it possible that we might see a 3D 1080p 3LCD AE5000 with a couple of pairs of shutter glasses launched with much fanfare at Cedia in Sept/Oct at a price that will throw the cat among the pidgeons

The real 'issue' with LCD and LCoS front projectors comes down to the true time required for the display chips to completely switch between the two images (i.e., the true response time for 100% transition of a given pixel between any two values). LG with their announced 3D LCoS projector gets around this by using two complete light engines thus allowing each set of LCoS display chips to handle only the right or left video stream. Samsung attempts to get around the response time limitations of their flat panel 3D LCD HDTVs by refreshing at 240Hz and inserting black frames between each video frame. Even then these displays show some crosstalk (ghosting) between the right and left image streams this is probably being caused by inadaquate response time and the LCD flat panel 3D HDTV that Sony is displaying at their Sony Style store has even worse crosstalk. So the bottom line is it is not yet known, if the manufacturers can actually advance the technology such that they can build next generation LCD and LCoS display chips that have low enought response time to prevent crosstalk between the right and left images when displaying 1080p/60 (or higher refresh rates) to each eye. Epson in particular is the key manufacturer for LCD technology, since they also make the LCD display chips used by Panasonic, Mitsubishi and perhaps others. For LCoS it is Sony and JVC since they manufacturer the display chips used by all of the consumer LCoS projectors.

DLP on the other hand can easily switch between the right and left image streams without any response time isssues.
post #3 of 6
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The real 'issue' with LCD and LCoS front projectors comes down to the true time required for the display chips to completely switch between the two images (i.e., the true response time for 100% transition of a given pixel between any two values). LG with their announced 3D LCoS projector gets around this by using two complete light engines thus allowing each set of LCoS display chips to handle only the right or left video stream. Samsung attempts to get around the response time limitations of their flat panel 3D LCD HDTVs by refreshing at 240Hz and inserting black frames between each video frame. Even then these displays show some crosstalk (ghosting) between the right and left image streams this is probably being caused by inadaquate response time and the LCD flat panel 3D HDTV that Sony is displaying at their Sony Style store has even worse crosstalk. So the bottom line is it is not yet known, if the manufacturers can actually advance the technology such that they can build next generation LCD and LCoS display chips that have low enought response time to prevent crosstalk between the right and left images when displaying 1080p/60 (or higher refresh rates) to each eye. Epson in particular is the key manufacturer for LCD technology, since they also make the LCD display chips used by Panasonic, Mitsubishi and perhaps others. For LCoS it is Sony and JVC since they manufacturer the display chips used by all of the consumer LCoS projectors.

DLP on the other hand can easily switch between the right and left image streams without any response time isssues.

Thanks for your educational reply Ron.

So we're not so much waiting for an announcement by Panasonic but more like a leak of a technical paper by Epson outlining their new iteration of LCD panels. Much like we heard about Epsons first iteration of their C2fine panel technology before we heard about the actual PJ's utilising the new panels like the Panasonic AE1000 or Epson equivelent.

I suppose unless Epson and Panasonic have been working behind the scenes for ages but managed to prevent any leaks we can kiss goodbye to any 1080P 3D LCD PJ's announcements at CES (or whatever that tradeshow in Sept/Oct is) given its only 6 months to go.

Hmmm? If I have to wait another year for a 3D 1080P LCD (at 1080P LCD prices as opposed to uber expensive DLP's this year) guess I might change my plans. Pay extra and upgrade to a Panny VT25 50" plasma instead of the G20 I intended to get my 3D fix and postpone my PJ upgrade from my current AE900 to an AE*000 for another year. I'll be getting a Cinemascope 106" Dalite HP (2.8gain) fixed screen for the new dedicated room anyway and I suppose this will breath new life into my old AE900 and keep me reasonably happy till I get an 3D AE6000 in early 2012. Just means I'll have to manually zoom and focus for cinemascope and live with a bit more pixel structure for another while
post #4 of 6
I really do expect to see moderately priced DLP 1080p 3D projectors available toward the end of 2010. In the case of DLP the additional cost to add 3D capability is quit modest (basically just upgrading the HDMI and video processing chips plus adding a IR emitter to sync. the shutter glasses and perhaps a higher wattage lamp). Today's mid-level 1080p DLP projectors with a street price in the range of $2.5K might evolve into 3D models with street prices in the $3K range, but some manufacturers may decide to first offer 3D only in their highest-end model(s). As for LCD projectors this year, there certainly could be models offered using dual light engines (but they would be expensive) using existing LCD display chips, but single light engine models that can actually project 3D without right/left crosstalk may still be a year or more away. You do need to remember to using alternating right/left images in combination with shutter glasses reduces the viewed image brightness by 70% to 85% and depending on the screen size and screen gain a much higher wattage bulb may be necessary to keep image brightness to an acceptable level for 3D viewing. For example my Epson 6500UB is considered a fairly bright HT projector, but once calibrated I find it doesn't have very many lumens to spare when projecting onto a 120" 16x9 screen with a gain of 1.1. Such a projector with its current light engine lumens would probably only provide adequate brightness for 3D viewing if used with a screen of less than 80" (and perhaps 60") or substantially higher gain. I suspect many future moderate priced 3D projectors may attempt to support 3D by essentially running the projector in a vivid or dynamic mode where then can produce higher lumens, but not achieve good color accuracy.
post #5 of 6
i just hope that the 1080p projectors can use the non mandatory formats in the new 1.4a specs- or even better just the old 1.3 format but in 1080p 120hz for the PC 3d. i was pretty bummed the new 3d tvs can only game at 720 on consuls and the PC! Nvidia hardware can run 1080p 3d but they are not even supporting it for the 1.4a 3d tvs because none of them come with 120hz 1080 3d PC gaming options. This is a step backwards for me.

its strange that everyone talks about the 3d darkening the colors- for me the only thing i notice with 3d on is how much better the colors look compared to 2d. colors have a better feel to them- like added depth. maybe i just don't have as discerning of a eye as most users. im using the Mitsubishi tv and nvidia 3d vision on a pc.

im really looking forward to a true 1080p 3d projector on a huge screen!
post #6 of 6
Thread Starter 
I decided I would be purchasing a Dalite High Power screen for a multitude of other reasons but when I read the comments about the level of dimming my decision was set in stone. I calculated that I would have over 60 foot lamberts with an AE4000 and HP screen projecting a 78" 16:9 image on a 106" wide Cinemascope screen. (about 48FL for zoomed 2.35:1) 60FL is bordering on painful. I realised I could run with ND filters early in the bulbs life and run in eco mode and then remove the filter and put the bulb in normal mode towards the end. Brightness of the 3D image is not something I am worrying about no matter what 3D PJ I end up getting.

TBH the feature set of the AE4000 is more important to me than 3D. I'll probably take a pass on 3D DLP even if it is reasonably priced and wait for a 3D AE5000-6000 unless I find a PJ that meats all my requirements sooner.
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