What's this I hear about Power Cord upgrade? - Page 7

I have publicly challenged both JS and DS to submit technical data using the same parameters as all legit cable and equipment manufactures provide and publish. Both have resorted to diversionary attempts, acting like they necer read the posts, claims that no equipment available can detect the nuances of the products that are only capable of delivering what an electronic device provides, etc.

DS of TUC refuses to give a single example of a single part he subs as I publicly promised to publish ALL the data of the original and the data of his choice of replacement. No response.

JS refuses to publish anything aside from always glowing anecdotal endorsements that all sound suspiciously alike in verbiage and sentence structure.

AGAIN I offer the chance for BOTH to supply the requested data and submit their cables and gear to fully independent testing and graphing.

Ya wanna bet they try to divert the request again? They are trying to hide the truth as that would seriously impact the bottom line.

I just have an issue with BS masquerading as fact.

What are your qualifications to administer such an independent test? If you can offer none then the term hypocritical comes to mind.

Prove that you are qualified to administer an independent test!

Thanks for sharing your personal preferences.

"What are your qualifications to administer such an independent test? If you can offer none then the term hypocritical comes to mind.

Prove that you are qualified to administer an independent test!"

OK. 40+ years in the professional audio visual design, installation and repair industry using TOTL professional broadcast grade equipment.

clients include:
NASA, NSA, FBI, UCLA, Georgetown University, The Hospital Network, TNN, NBC, Wolf Trap Center for the Performing Arts, Coca Cola, Texas Instruments, ARCO, The Emmy Awards, SMU, Marriott Conference Centers, Hilton Conference Centers Intern., ATT, hundreds of private industry- internationally linked conference rooms with full AV presentation and recording ability, hundreds of custom designed AV control/switching/routing systems, a couple hundred high end home based systems (using proven products, not the mega hyped BS brands) Good enough for you?

Now, YOUR qualifications.

The DBT system I am building is totally autonomous and requires no interaction from a test facilitator aside from connecting the cables. The system randomly times a monitoring period for each cable pair, uses a SOTA calibrated stereo limiter to assure absolutely equal test to test levels, is connected to a quad trace 100mhz digital scope with memory to map and graph inputs and outputs. The source can be either a mono music program or an automatically swept 15-30k tone. Naturally, due to program material differences between channels, a stereo program cannot be used with any hope of test accuracy.

The connections to the unit internally are 3.0 inches from gold plated RCA jacks, through the switching IC and back to the output jacks for the interconnect cables and through berryllium plated 25A rated relay contacts on the speaker cable test system. There are absolutely NO active(amplification, clamping, filtering, resistive or capacitive) devices or circuits in the system. All connections for the speaker cables use 10awg tinned copper wire and have all connection made through spade lugs that are soldered to the wire. Lab grade banana jacks from Pomona electronics are used.

The entire system is housed inside a soundproof enclosure so no acoustic signature of relay operation can be detected. The signals from BOTH sets of cables are momentarily paralleled so there is no detectable dropout from one path to the other and then in a couple seconds (randomly timed) one cable set loop is dropped away.

There is a NAND switch and a digital counter that is triggered by the listener when a light comes on to request him/her to vote on which pair is being used- the standard OTS or the mega buck cable. The counters tally the right/wrong guesses.

That independent and accurate enough for you?

Questioning your qualifications to administer an independent test is rather ridiculous.

If the equipment is up to spec and functioning as designed, the only ability needed is to flip the switches and accurately record the data.

Now, setting up, calibrating, and interpreting the results of the test equipment may necessitate some technical background. But administering the test is like having an end user turn on their receiver and set the volume and source.

If there's a performance difference between the cables, it should be evident somewhere across the FR and display on the measurement dials.

It's an objective test, not subjective. It's not a matter of whether or not you get more air, spaciousness, or chilly-willys from one cable over another. Just whether or not there is a measurable increase/decrease in FR because of one cable in comparison to another.

Ultimately, you can buy what makes you feel better, regardless of price.

But to say objectively that it is better is incorrect.

Just make sure to add, "To my ears, ..." when stating your opinion of a particular brand of cable and there won't be any hassles.

The only reason for building this device in the first place to to provide a controlled methodology to prove that the cables are not actually distinguishable from one another, meaning that the uber expensive audiophool series are in no way technically superior.

This system will have the objective measurement and graphing ability as well as the simultaneous tallying for those whose belief in subjective testing outweighs the actual provable physics.

The mere fact that ol JS has declined to have his stuff tested and mapped proves he KNOWS there is nothing superior about it.

AMF I found some posts from a few years ago where his cables were merely repackaged products of another company. Interesting since he was claiming non existent patents for his product.

lol, qualified to preform a decent controlled listening test? Give me break,
I didnt know there was a certification requirement to do this

Its call controlling your listening test. There are many factors involved and none of them are rocket science.

Exactly!!! I added the "Uncontrolled extremely subjective test" since people should explain their method and 99% fall under that category

Easier said than done though. I am sure you need to have some familiarity with developing an acceptable testing methodology. If I were to develop one, I am sure it would be full of holes.

Can you blame him?

Your testing has the potential to destroy his livelihood (and those who also market similar goods).

We all have bills to pay, him possibly more than most, and if his product is proven to be nothing more than nicer jacketing and marketing hype, he'll be in a quandary come next quarter.

It's not so much whether he KNOWS there is nothing superior about his cables, but rather the "what if" it is proven that they are definitively NOT superior from an objective standpoint?

His sales and profit margin will disintegrate, possibly to the point that he can no longer run the company profitably and be forced to close.

His credibility, reputation and social circle will take a big hit.

He'll have to start over in another career, and depending on his stage in life it might be rather difficult to re-achieve his current status both personally and professionally.

And what if your tests prove his cables ARE superior?

It's highly unlikely he'll be getting enormous additional revenue from the previous doubters given the prices of his products.

He's got no real gain from allowing you to do this test, aside from quelling the tide of questions from those who would probably never buy anything from him anyways.

I'd love to find out the truth regarding the performance of these megabuck cables, but not necessarily at the expense of ruining someone's life. (As much as we desire to rid the world of snake oil sales, we always have the choice to buy/not buy them).

As they say, "Caveat Emptor"

...just credibility.


Take an introductory electronics course, crack a book, or google for the information, it's there and has been for decades.

FYI, I have. There was not one EE course-approved textbook in my curriculum nor is there any info on the net that provided FR test results between using JPS Labs cables and same gauge copper wire.

I think you're misunderstanding that I want to know that JPS Labs cables specifically are NOT superior objectively from a FR standpoint.

If we start with a sample size of one, and through further testing can continually add other esoteric cable brands, then a generalization of the current cable market may be possible regarding their value (or lack thereof).

At which point your advice would be more relevant due to availability of real-world test data and results.

But thanks for your suggestion, like I said, you might have simply misinterpreted my statement.

There doesn't have to be. There are, however, multiple texts on conductors, semiconductors and insulators. That's why I suggested you crack a book, this research has already been done, centuries ago.


I didn't, I don't think you understood my post at all though.

Some of the most important parts are easy.

1. level matching.
2. Remove the brand, price, visualization of the product.
3. Switching done by someone else, completely hidden from the listeninger so no clues to the switch are given.
4. Measure each test.

Doing just those alone can change the conclusions. The level matching can be the hardest part but a simple SPL meter to test both products is a good start. I would just include this in the measurement test since the measurement will show level differences in the sweeps.

$150 in measuring tools (assuming the person has a PC) is easy (IMO). $150 is NOTHING for what people are willing to spend on this stuff so it should be a no brainer for all audiophiles who like posting subjective banter on this forum.


No one needs to produce a study that will be published in a journal they simply need to be aware of what variables can influence the conclusions.

Others can argue till they are blue in the face about the holes (science types will do that all day just for fun). Im not in it for that, Im just want everyone to realize that we need to stop all these external influences.

What happened in the other thread where someone could request cables for listening tests?

Lodit, was that you who tried to get some?

Didn't you get those cables from Joe? If you don't consider it a big deal, you owe us those tests and measurements then

I have those (using them on the passive XOs), I have 4 different DSPs to test and a complete gain structure testing to get done. I have 35 different speaker drivers/tweeters/woofers/subwoofers in my garage for many different projects. I have passive XOs to build on my latest active design ( I will test the above wires). I have a new surround speakers that just arrived to test/measured and maybe rebuild, also need to mount them for "high" channel surrounds testing.

Yeah, Im a little behind Why do I waste time on here? Im travelling and Im trying to keep out of trouble!!!

Please provide me a reference EE text from centuries ago that specifically researched JPS Labs cables.

I'm looking for the truth about JPS Labs cables' performance as Gizmo has graciously offered to discern.

From there, I proposed that other current cable brands could be tested to expose whether or not they are superior.

Your post is somewhat condescending and rather uninformative in answering how JPS Labs cables measure up.

I'm interested in a little more evidence than "cracking a book" and it seems I'm not the only one.


That was the MIT cable lending thread. A few tried, have not yet heard of anyone who was accepted and posted any results.

I don't have a system anywhere near the price range or "resolving" power that would qualify me to test their cables, after reading the setups of those who have applied.

That's why I was hoping to see some test results in that, and this thread.

Oh well, after I collect my Mega Millions winnings, I will buy a bunch of these high-priced cables and send them to you for testing.

Deal?

lol, I keep searching Ebay, audiogon etc for some relatively $$$ choices to test.

Note: all my testing would be in room response measurement testing. I would defer the electrical properties testing to someone else.

No worries.
Once I collect that payout, you can even search for $$$$$ price levels.

Ha!

Both you and Gizmo can test them out.

I'll lend them out to anyone else interested, even duvetyne if he decides to give them a try.

I think a group donation is needed

I will pony up $40 for a test, get 25 more guys and we can test $1000 cables

We then sell the cables and give the money to charity!!

Please stop moving the goal posts and debate like an adult.


Your posts reveal you to be arrogant and uninformed.


In other words, you're not going to do any research for yourself.

apparently nordist thinks he can now measure a difference

http://audiofest.net/2010/video_play...248482c29691dc

More details to follow - stay tuned . . . Who knows, people have been wrong before.

Why should anyone pay attention to that link? Measurements from listening spot can show different results without changing any audio gears. Just wait till the room temperature or humidity changes. People can hear a difference without changing any audio gears. Just turn your head slightly or move it a few inches while music is playing.

I don't think you should believe his measurements. After all, he has a vested interest. But if the measurements can be repeated, and it turns out to be audible, it could be interesting. Hey, you never know. . . .

Cable measurements have been repeated and they did turn out to be audible when their parameters change to extreme level. There's nothing interesting anymore about cable technology because we already know how to make the best cable possible for audio use and they have been in use for decades.

Unfortunately, when the tests show there is no superiority between cables other than price the believers will continue to say their ears tell them different. Science be damned!

It appears you've decided experiments aren't for you, and textbook theory is all you'll ever need to make a purchasing decision.

Good for you, not for me.

FYI, as much as I do believe (based on past theoretical/practical evidence, or research that I've read, seen, heard, learned, etc.) there will be NO superior difference between JPS Labs cable and same gauge copper wire, the test Gizmo has set up to prove this interests me.

Your personal attacks on my character and lack of knowledge I'll leave unaddressed at this moment.

I'm rather uninterested in your attempts to goad me.

I'd rather keep the thread open for those, like me, who want Gizmo to actually have a chance at performing his test.

Well, their brains do the telling and that is the problem It has a tendency to mislead at times; and, there is no on/off switch for that service.

Agreed. Although when one already believes in the wizardry the brain's tendency is to mislead almost all of the time. I always get a kick when reading someone saying they can be "objective" and eliminate the influences when doing a comparison yet they have never participated in a properly conducted test nor seem to be willing to do so, being satisfied with whatever methodology they used (or lack of) and not realizing or discounting the flaws.