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Sub Plate Amp Help Requested

post #1 of 19
4/18/10 at 11:09pm
Thread Starter 
I am looking for a source to purchase a sub plate amp that uses a torroidal power supply for the lowest distortion level.

But i have another question. How good are BASH plate amps? I've never heard one before. I am considering the PE 300S BASH sub amp if I can't find a torroidal plate amp.

This is to replace an amp that just went out on me. Was working fine. I turned it off. Unplugged it. Moved the sub. Plugged it in and turned it on and the amp is shot. Just one of those things.

Anyway, any help and links would be much appreciated. I am in no rush unless a really good, recommended plate amp is on sale and I have to act fast. Otherwise I have a temp replacement sub I am using.
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post #2 of 19
4/18/10 at 11:34pm
Bash type amplifiers are everywhere, don't know about the torroidal power supply though. The 500 watt o-audio amplifier is great and one of the best bang for your buck plate amplifiers there is in its power/price range.
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post #3 of 19
4/19/10 at 4:33am
You just unplugged your sub, moved it, plugged it back in and now it is shot? That seems rather odd. Have you done any troubleshooting on it to confirm it's actually dead? Or did you just plug it back in and it didn't come on so you think it's dead? Not trying to insult your intelligence, I just think that's an awfully strange way to blow an amp.
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post #4 of 19
4/19/10 at 5:59am
Make sure that the cable connecting to the subwoofer is okay.

The first check could be connecting a dvd player (or other similar device) to the subwoofer to see if there is some sound.

There have been two threads in this forum where individuals have had their subwoofer fail after relocating equipment. In each case, they left some of their cables plugged in. If a receiver or subwoofer has a cable plugged in while being moved, substantial torque can be generating when some object is bumped. Each individual discovered that the rca jack (inside subwoofer or receiver) had become disconnected (solder separated because of physical force). One person was able to quickly re-solder and solve the problem. The other did after the first suggested the eventual solution.

If the solder holding the jack in place has pulled loose, then you may be able to wiggle the connection where it goes into the receiver or subwoofer. This may give sound if the connection jack is the problem.
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post #5 of 19
4/19/10 at 6:01am
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-809
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...&SID=dayton500
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html
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post #6 of 19
4/19/10 at 7:10am
Just out of curiosity: How did you come to the conclusion that the amp is shot?
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post #7 of 19
4/19/10 at 9:22am
Thread Starter 
I'm not insulted guys. The amp needs repaired. All connections were removed before moving the sub. The plate amp DOES turn on when plugged in, however when the relay kicks in, the plate amp itself just hums. The indicater LED goes from normal bright red, to a dim red when the amp begins to hum. It does the same thing when connected to the AVR.

Having never tried a Bash amp before, I am considering giving it a try. Torroidal plate amps are rare and only the good ones use torroidal power supplies, and as such, the price is high. I may end up getting mine repaired after sleeping on the issue last night. Not sure yet though.
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post #8 of 19
4/19/10 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
Has anyone ever compared a Bash amp to a torroidal amp? Does anyone recommend one over the other?
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post #9 of 19
4/19/10 at 9:45am
Perhaps seeing the definition of a BASH amp will help. This is an excerpt from o Audio's FAQ:

BASH® is a patented technology that mates a tracking power supply to a Class AB output stage to deliver efficiency that is comparable to Class D
digital amplifiers, but with the fidelity associated with Class AB amplifiers.

Bill C
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post #10 of 19
4/19/10 at 9:56am
I wouldn't link the amps power supply to the distortion level of the amp. Yes torroidal power supplies due tend to increase the cost of the amp but that is because of the cost to make a torroidal transformer. If you look at most of the new amps that are available today you will see that most contain power supplies that are similar to pc power supplies. This is because of two things, cost, and efficiency. Pc power supplies are called switching power supplies because they use transistors that turn off and on at a high rate to produce the desired dc output. These power supplies do not require big large transformers and some don't even contain a transformer (I.e. The amp in the paradigm signature 15 sub). If you find a good sub amp that doesn't have a torroidal transformer wouldn't right it off as a not buy. It just uses different power supply technology to from a dc voltage from an ac source.
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post #11 of 19
4/20/10 at 4:34am
You might want to look at different plate amps to determine if you can find one that almost precisely matches the size of your existing amp.

Last month, I used a 500w PE BASH amp to replace a 9+ year old amp on a JBL PSW-D115. My son who is very good at cabinet making and has done many car audio installs wanted to take the subwoofer to a friend's woodworking shop. I suggested using 2"x4"s in a rectangular shape that was glued to the back of the subwoofer. The old amp was 7"x13" whereas the new amp is 8"x12". I can only turn the new amp to 1/4 power.

Because of high hourly labor costs, having a subwoofer repaired may not be cost-effective. The PE 300w BASH amp is ~$150.

If there are obvious burn marks on a few parts on the amp, then it might be straightforward to do a repair yourself; else you would likely need a service manual to meticulously go through the process of locating the defective parts.
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post #12 of 19
4/20/10 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillCinLR View Post

Perhaps seeing the definition of a BASH amp will help. This is an excerpt from o Audio's FAQ:

BASH® is a patented technology that mates a tracking power supply to a Class AB output stage to deliver efficiency that is comparable to Class D
digital amplifiers, but with the fidelity associated with Class AB amplifiers.

Bill C

I think it's unfortunate that PE calls their BASH amps digital, when nothing could be further from the truth.

It's also unfortunate that people like those at O audio keep calling class D digital when in fact the D does not stand for digital or anything else. It is merely a classification. Class D is not digital. It is PWM, which is an analog process.
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post #13 of 19
4/20/10 at 1:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shujin View Post

I wouldn't link the amps power supply to the distortion level of the amp. Yes torroidal power supplies due tend to increase the cost of the amp but that is because of the cost to make a torroidal transformer. If you look at most of the new amps that are available today you will see that most contain power supplies that are similar to pc power supplies. This is because of two things, cost, and efficiency. Pc power supplies are called switching power supplies because they use transistors that turn off and on at a high rate to produce the desired dc output. These power supplies do not require big large transformers and some don't even contain a transformer (I.e. The amp in the paradigm signature 15 sub). If you find a good sub amp that doesn't have a torroidal transformer wouldn't right it off as a not buy. It just uses different power supply technology to from a dc voltage from an ac source.

I agree completely that new tecnology is not something to be disregarded. But it is a fact that torroidal power supplies eliminate much of the distortion found in standard power supplies, which unfortunately, most subs have. Torroidal power supplies are used in power conditioners for the lack of noise, and they are also used in high quality amplifiers like Emotiva. I have heard identical output plate amps, one with the standard square power supply, and one with a torroidal supply. Both used identical cabinets and drivers. The torroidal equipped plate amp was clearly (both figuritively and literally) the better of the two. This was a couple of years ago however, and maybe things have changed, but I'm still sold on torroidal since I see them still being used in high quality applications over a switched power supply in the lower quality models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwinkler View Post

You might want to look at different plate amps to determine if you can find one that almost precisely matches the size of your existing amp.

Last month, I used a 500w PE BASH amp to replace a 9+ year old amp on a JBL PSW-D115. My son who is very good at cabinet making and has done many car audio installs wanted to take the subwoofer to a friend's woodworking shop. I suggested using 2"x4"s in a rectangular shape that was glued to the back of the subwoofer. The old amp was 7"x13" whereas the new amp is 8"x12". I can only turn the new amp to 1/4 power.

Because of high hourly labor costs, having a subwoofer repaired may not be cost-effective. The PE 300w BASH amp is ~$150.

If there are obvious burn marks on a few parts on the amp, then it might be straightforward to do a repair yourself; else you would likely need a service manual to meticulously go through the process of locating the defective parts.

Yes, the Dayton 300S Bash amp is what I am leaning towards getting for a replacement. I heard back from the maker of my sub amp and was quoted a flat repair cost, regardless of the issue, of $80 + shipping to the repair facility. Return shipping is complimentary. I would still have $100 into this amp, which I do love but is 3 years old and could fail again just as easily as it just did, OR the alternative is I drive to Dayton (I live about 1/2 hour from PE) and buy the Bash 300S for a total cost of $160+ $5 for gas and have a year warranty, VS. no warranty on my repaired amp. I'm one to spend a few extra bucks to repair what I love, but I have been burned one too many times with something else failing in the past, I would ultimately save money just buying new.

I would buy the 500 watt non Bash amp if I had the cash, easily. I just can't afford it. I have the driver (this is a DIY sub BTW) that would easily handle the power, but the best I can afford is 300 watts which the driver seems to take so easily and my house feels literally like an earthquake. In fact, my wife is still pissed off at me for the sub causing a very sentimental, old and irreplacable vase from her father who has passed, to fall and crack. My only saving grace is that the vase did not shatter, But I hear about it everytime she looks at it, which is often. I will take this shame (translated as pride the sub was able to do what it did from so far away) to my grave, she has made sure I know this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_M View Post

I think it's unfortunate that PE calls their BASH amps digital, when nothing could be further from the truth.

It's also unfortunate that people like those at O audio keep calling class D digital when in fact the D does not stand for digital or anything else. It is merely a classification. Class D is not digital. It is PWM, which is an analog process.

I thought class A/B, class D and so on were just designations for the type of amp and its output, not digital or analog? However, with the 300S being my first encounter with a digital amp, I'm interested why you say it is not what it is described as? I understand PWM from my model railroading days as being Pulse Width Modulation. But the PE description mentions nothing of the sort.
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post #14 of 19
4/20/10 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

I agree completely that new tecnology is not something to be disregarded. But it is a fact that torroidal power supplies eliminate much of the distortion found in standard power supplies, which unfortunately, most subs have. Torroidal power supplies are used in power conditioners for the lack of noise, and they are also used in high quality amplifiers like Emotiva. I have heard identical output plate amps, one with the standard square power supply, and one with a torroidal supply. Both used identical cabinets and drivers. The torroidal equipped plate amp was clearly (both figuritively and literally) the better of the two. This was a couple of years ago however, and maybe things have changed, but I'm still sold on torroidal since I see them still being used in high quality applications over a switched power supply in the lower quality models.

Yes, the Dayton 300S Bash amp is what I am leaning towards getting for a replacement. I heard back from the maker of my sub amp and was quoted a flat repair cost, regardless of the issue, of $80 + shipping to the repair facility. Return shipping is complimentary. I would still have $100 into this amp, which I do love but is 3 years old and could fail again just as easily as it just did, OR the alternative is I drive to Dayton (I live about 1/2 hour from PE) and buy the Bash 300S for a total cost of $160+ $5 for gas and have a year warranty, VS. no warranty on my repaired amp. I'm one to spend a few extra bucks to repair what I love, but I have been burned one too many times with something else failing in the past, I would ultimately save money just buying new.

I would buy the 500 watt non Bash amp if I had the cash, easily. I just can't afford it. I have the driver (this is a DIY sub BTW) that would easily handle the power, but the best I can afford is 300 watts which the driver seems to take so easily and my house feels literally like an earthquake. In fact, my wife is still pissed off at me for the sub causing a very sentimental, old and irreplacable vase from her father who has passed, to fall and crack. My only saving grace is that the vase did not shatter, But I hear about it everytime she looks at it, which is often. I will take this shame (translated as pride the sub was able to do what it did from so far away) to my grave, she has made sure I know this.

I thought class A/B, class D and so on were just designations for the type of amp and its output, not digital or analog? However, with the 300S being my first encounter with a digital amp, I'm interested why you say it is not what it is described as? I understand PWM from my model railroading days as being Pulse Width Modulation. But the PE description mentions nothing of the sort.

Yes, that's what I'm saying, A, B, A/B C, D, etc. do not refer to analog vs. digital. The 300S is a class A/B amp with a tracking power supply, not a digital amp. The reason I mentioned PWM is because that is the type of amp everyone seems to want to call digital, which it is not. As a matter of fact, I have yet to see a true digital amp where the signal is output from a DAC and then filtered and applied to the speaker. May be someone can point me to one.
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post #15 of 19
5/4/10 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

But it is a fact that torroidal power supplies eliminate much of the distortion found in standard power supplies, which unfortunately, most subs have. Torroidal power supplies are used in power conditioners for the lack of noise, and they are also used in high quality amplifiers like Emotiva. I have heard identical output plate amps, one with the standard square power supply, and one with a torroidal supply. Both used identical cabinets and drivers. The torroidal equipped plate amp was clearly (both figuritively and literally) the better of the two. This was a couple of years ago however, and maybe things have changed, but I'm still sold on torroidal since I see them still being used in high quality applications over a switched power supply in the lower quality models.

A toroid is a type of transformer. It's not a power supply. Toroids do have some advantages over laminated steel transformers but you'd have a difficult time noticing the difference in a well designed subwoofer amp. Switching power supplies (SMPS) can perform much better than a linear supply (with toroid or laminated steel xfmr). What's the "switching" frequency of a linear supply? It's 60Hz (50Hz in the EU). What's your subwoofer bandwidth? It's around 20-150Hz. Guess where some of the sub amp distortion comes from? The linear supply. SMPS switching frequencies are anywhere from 100Khz to 1Mhz+. Do you think you'll hear that coming through your sub? You won't. Properly designed SMPSs can be much stiffer than linear supplies because they can be designed with feedback. A linear supply will sag more under load unless the transformer is oversized. Copper losses in a SMPS are less than in a linear supply. Why? There's a LOT less copper which equals less resistance in the wire which equals less voltage drop across the wire with increased temperatures. That translates into higher efficiency and more power output.

Of course there are some negatives with SMPS. For example, SMPS can obviously be less reliable because there are more parts. Also EMI (RF) emissions must be addressed in the design otherwise forget about tuning in a radio station or using your wireless phone near the amp . But you'll never experience any of these negatives if the SMPS is designed well. There are more but I'm just listing a couple to keep this short.

The comparison you heard must not have been apples to apples. The SMPS must not have been able to provide as much power as the linear supply. If it was a true apples to apples comparison, either the difference wouldn't be audible or the SMPS would perform better.

It's difficult for most to imagine how a tiny featherweight SMPS can complete with a big heavy linear supply and that's the uphill battle that amp companies face. It really comes down to physics. Higher switching frequencies = smaller magnetics (transformers).

In the end, you'll get what you want. I just thought I'd offer another perspective.
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post #16 of 19
5/4/10 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

I would buy the 500 watt non Bash amp if I had the cash, easily. I just can't afford it. I have the driver (this is a DIY sub BTW) that would easily handle the power.

What driver and enclosure combination is this for?
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post #17 of 19
5/4/10 at 7:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:


A toroid is a type of transformer. It's not a power supply.

I stand corrected. I did indeed mean transformer but used power supply. Since the 2 go hand in hand, I have always associated them together and everyone (til now) has gathered what was meant when I used either word for either device. But yes, transformer is what was meant.

Anyway, so what you are saying is that the BASH plate amps equal, if not best toroidal amps? I had a feeling this was the case, but wanted some sort of verification.

Dan, I don't have the funds for the 500watt toroidal amp so will likely be going with the 300watt BASH amp instead. Right now I can't afford that either so I am running my 'spare' 150watt sub. When I first hooked it up and ran Audyssey, I thought I had forgotten why I made it a spare, it sounded really good. But as I listened to it, I realized why it is my spare. It still sounds good, it beats a blank, but it just isn't what I've come to expect out of a sub. For my bedroom OK, my main viewing area, I can't wait to get my DIY going again. The driver is the 12" Dayton RSS315HF-4 and the cabinet a Dayton SWC-2CO 2.0 ft³. But I plan on building a new slightly larger cabinet with a 1" front baffle and better bracing as the old cabinet would rattle on the super low frequencies. That always bugged me.
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post #18 of 19
5/5/10 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Anyway, so what you are saying is that the BASH plate amps equal, if not best toroidal amps? I had a feeling this was the case, but wanted some sort of verification.

What I can say is that I have measured SMPS powered sub amps (including BASH) and linear PS powered sub amps. The SMPS powered amps performed at least as well as the linear PS powered amps and in some cases better especially if the linear xfmr was on the small side.
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post #19 of 19
7/10/10 at 10:05am
Thread Starter 
Well, I got my toroidal plate amp today, finally! Actually, I bought 2! Parts Express has their tent sale today so I went up and picked up over $700 worth of sub amps for $191 all in! Parametric EQ, 540 watts @ 4ohms, sweet! So glad I waited and made do with my substitute 'extra' sub. I was just getting ready to buy a different 300 watt Bash amp for $159 + shipping too. Can't wait to install these and get everything rocking!
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