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PopBox NOT in March!!

post #1 of 148
4/22/10 at 6:19pm
Thread Starter 
OK, this has been brewing in me for a while...and now I think the tide is finally turning on PopBox, and maybe even Syabas. If anyone has paid attention, I have been very vocal about the fact that A-100/110 owners...that is to say, early supporters of Syabas...had no choice but to rip to a container that they have basically stopped supporting.

IMHO, they made a conscious choice to go for the faster chip, with a promise of Flash content and the better GUI...knowing full-well it wouldn't support lossless audio in a ts/m2ts container. As far back as the C-200, through the A-200...and now likely the PopBox...3 new players (!)...this issue has been left unresolved.

Promises, cryptic messages; the apologists who say this is Sigma's problem. It may be their issue, but it is Syabas' fault.

Now...delays without explanation on PopBox...and if they've lost Netflix (who cares...doesn't EVERY box stream Netflix these days anyway? OTOH, how did Syabas lose them when everyone else seems to be able to offer it? ), and for me, especially Hulu...what's the point? I thought the PopBox was supposed to be their ticket into the mainstream? Ha; same sh*t, different month.

Am I alone in this? I mean, I love my A-110, and it's not going anywhere anytime soon, for the HT anyway, because it's the only thing I can get to play lossless audio from my .m2ts rips; but I've just about had it.

I hope this post will serve 2 purposes: 1) consider it a petition, demanding Syabas finally fix this "bug"!! And 2) let's talk about alternatives to the damn thing! Maybe that'll get their attention; and if they don't have some low-end guy on the payroll, who does pay attention to their only customer base, then shame on them for that too!

CD
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post #2 of 148
4/22/10 at 7:16pm
edit...

ok.. now that PCH is finally fixing this.. I've came back down out of the tree and willing to give them the benefit of a doubt.
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post #3 of 148
4/22/10 at 7:35pm
They lost me with their forced ads that took up almost a 1/4 of the screen....
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post #4 of 148
4/22/10 at 10:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

...and if they've lost Netflix (who cares...doesn't EVERY box stream Netflix these days anyway?

I'm sorry, are there a bunch of sub-$150 boxes out there that play Netflix without Playon and also play networked media files? Because I must have missed the discussions about all of them.

It's certainly going to be a big deal to a lot of potential buyers if this thing doesn't have Netflix. That said, it's a little early for comments like "...They lost me with their forced ads..." considering none of us has actually seen the actual product.
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post #5 of 148
4/22/10 at 11:15pm
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Originally Posted by scratchie View Post

I'm sorry, are there a bunch of sub-$150 boxes out there that play Netflix without Playon and also play networked media files? Because I must have missed the discussions about all of them.

It's certainly going to be a big deal to a lot of potential buyers if this thing doesn't have Netflix. That said, it's a little early for comments like "...They lost me with their forced ads..." considering none of us has actually seen the actual product.

I doubt they will lose netflix and you are correct in pointing out the lack of alternatives at that price.

Syabas has to get the interface right, finalize content agreements, etc...These things take time. They make nice products. I am not about to throw them overboard because of the sigma issue with HD audio in certain situations. These things take time. Some people want tomorrow yesterday.

philip
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post #6 of 148
4/22/10 at 11:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DraZtiK View Post

They lost me with their forced ads that took up almost a 1/4 of the screen....

I am not an ad fan which is why I would never go the PopBox route (in any case Canada doesn't get netflix) but who is going to pay for the content? The PopBox is a nice alternative to a traditional cable subscription. Unfortunately ads are everywhere. It's hard to support the content providers' lifestyles with a tax on DVD writable media as some countries do. We are seeing the result of what happens when you want content provided by the content providers. It's not cheap. The prices are essentially the same whether you go to iTunes or Amazon or wherever. It's going to be a culture shock to those living in the torrent world.

philip
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post #7 of 148
4/22/10 at 11:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcd View Post

I am not an ad fan which is why I would never go the PopBox route (in any case Canada doesn't get netflix) but who is going to pay for the content? The PopBox is a nice alternative to a traditional cable subscription. Unfortunately ads are everywhere. It's hard to support the content providers' lifestyles with a tax on DVD writable media as some countries do. We are seeing the result of what happens when you want content provided by the content providers. It's not cheap. The prices are essentially the same whether you go to iTunes or Amazon or wherever. It's going to be a culture shock to those living in the torrent world.

philip

I don't think the Popbox will run torrent clients and I'm not aware of Syabas having said it will do that.

Playing .ISO is a sketchy thing from a content provider point of view (Hulu, Netflix) so we'll have to see how that goes.

I do fully expect Popbox to support other popular containers such as mkv, mp4, etc.

The smartest thing Syabas can do is put the minimum support on the Popbox to keep the content providers happy, while allowing the developer community, through their "pop apps", to support other activities that are less desirable to content providers.
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post #8 of 148
4/23/10 at 4:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchie View Post

That said, it's a little early for comments like "...They lost me with their forced ads..." considering none of us has actually seen the actual product.

OK...they lost me with...delays...change in support of containers...broken promises...not being forthcoming about development. Is it too early to say they've been saying they were going to "fix" the .m2ts issue since 3 players ago? Is it too early to say this box appears to have missed its mark by months? Is it too early to say that people want to know...since they've pre-ordered, and that does mean a financial commitment...what they're actually getting and all Syabas seems to want to say is "stay tuned"?

I understand the nature of the business, so no need to lecture me like I haven't been streaming for 5 years and had 10 of these devices. It's that very "nature" that keeps these machines underground with us geeks, and from ever approaching the mainstream. Like I said, I thought this was supposed to be Syabas' coming-out party, but it's the same 'ole shite.

CD
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post #9 of 148
4/23/10 at 6:06am
Well, it looks like there is another option at the same price point (and it's shipping!). I'll start investigating this one:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/19/s...tflix-streami/
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post #10 of 148
4/23/10 at 6:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Dog View Post

Well, it looks like there is another option at the same price point (and it's shipping!). I'll start investigating this one:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/19/s...tflix-streami/

Do we know anything about this player? Just looking on Seagate's site, I see no support for HD Audio. The Netflix feature is nice, but when all is said and done the ability to play all content (both video and audio) still reigns supreme.
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post #11 of 148
4/23/10 at 7:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Do we know anything about this player? Just looking on Seagate's site, I see no support for HD Audio. The Netflix feature is nice, but when all is said and done the ability to play all content (both video and audio) still reigns supreme.

Yeah; I'm mostly curious about HDX offerings, but they're suffering the same fate as Syabas right now, yes?

CD
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post #12 of 148
4/23/10 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Yeah; I'm mostly curious about HDX offerings, but they're suffering the same fate as Syabas right now, yes?

CD

What fate? The HDX-BD1 can bitstream from standalone m2ts/mkv, but the firmware is supposed to be very immature
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post #13 of 148
4/23/10 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I understand the nature of the business, so no need to lecture me like I haven't been streaming for 5 years and had 10 of these devices.

Good for you. Sounds like you won't miss this one, then. Most of the rest of us are, I think, content to wait until the actual unit is actually released before passing final judgment.

Quote:


It's that very "nature" that keeps these machines underground with us geeks, and from ever approaching the mainstream.

You sure that's not the tail wagging the dog? I think the fact that mainstream consumers have virtually no interest in anything that's not available from their cable box and DVD/Blu-Ray player that keeps these things underground, and a faster, more reliable release schedule or better support for various audio & video formats would do virtually nothing to change that. It's not like my Mom & Dad are sitting around saying "Well, I'm ready to move all my media onto a NAS, but not until I can get full HD audio pass-through, goddammit!"
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post #14 of 148
4/23/10 at 8:45am
I think that's changing. WD Live is sold in Best Buy stores and more streamers will breach the wall as it were in the next twelve months.

I would have hoped that Syabas would get some of their issues worked out, but they are still suffering growing pains it appears.

I really hope that in addition to getting out a fully functional Popbox this summer they finally fix the damn .mkv issues they have.

They definitely realize that they are an enthusiast product and need to support the appropriate set of codecs, etc.

I would love nothing more than to sprinkle $129 Popboxes all over my house to replace my slow and clunky Blu-ray players for normal playback as well as offer apps like Netflix and Hulu.

This is a pipe dream but some company will make it a reality sooner rather than later.
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post #15 of 148
4/23/10 at 10:43am
The Seagate Freeagent Plus is a Realtek 1073DD player with DTS and DD support but nothing more. Also a completely customised interface compared to most Realteks.

I was surprised by the Seagate / Netflix announcement because Netflix have been notoriously reluctant to licence their product for anything that can potentially play pirated content. Seagate must be big enough to convince them somehow. Perhaps PH are not.

Exactly how these players are going to move mainstream is the $1,000,000 question. It will probably take a big manufacturer because only they would have the influence to convince the likes of Netflix and ultimately the movie studios / broadcast companies that it makes sense for them to jump.

By convince I mean financial persuasion.
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post #16 of 148
4/23/10 at 11:30am
I'm on the NMT forums and they never disclosed the full specs of it. They never answered all the members questions either so it doesn't surprise me.

It kind of bothers me, but its not the end of the world.

I'm actually waiting for Ion2 stuff to come out and go to XBMC. Way better for what I want and better support than Syabas ever offered. I'm also keeping my ear to the ground to see if Apple is going to put out some new hardware for media streaming.

I love my A100, but it still lacks some stuff I would like.
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post #17 of 148
4/23/10 at 11:32am
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Originally Posted by kneedragger View Post

I'm on the NMT forums and they never disclosed the full specs of it. They never answered all the members questions either so it doesn't surprise me.

It kind of bothers me, but its not the end of the world.

I'm actually waiting for Ion2 stuff to come out and go to XBMC. Way better for what I want and better support than Syabas ever offered. I'm also keeping my ear to the ground to see if Apple is going to put out some new hardware for media streaming.

I love my A100, but it still lacks some stuff I would like.

The Ion2 platform kills the guys who want to bitstream HD audio. Also, does XBMC handle Blu Ray structures (folder or ISO), I never tested out?
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post #18 of 148
4/23/10 at 11:37am
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Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

The Ion2 platform kills the guys who want to bitstream HD audio. Also, does XBMC handle Blu Ray structures (folder or ISO), I never tested out?

I honestly don't know about the HD audio. For some reason I recall some guys getting it with their Revo's in this forum? I could be wrong.

The Blu-ray thing... For me right now I don't have any blu-ray stuff, but I was planning later on getting a blu-ray drive for my server to rip movies. I was planning on using .MKV's with MakeMKV, but....

The other thing too is they are always working and adding new features. The next installment is supposed to have a a PVR backbone. I wouldn't be surprised if we get some sort of blu-ray structure support eventually.

http://xbmc.org/theuni/2010/02/06/coming-soon/


In the end they are moving at a good pace supporting their software.


Another thing about this Popbox that bothers me that just dawned on me.... Why is it getting a preorder on Amazon when we know nothing? I would never commit to a piece of hardware like this with out knowing everything about it.
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post #19 of 148
4/23/10 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kneedragger View Post

I honestly don't know about the HD audio. For some reason I recall some guys getting it with their Revo's in this forum? I could be wrong.

The Blu-ray thing... For me right now I don't have any blu-ray stuff, but I was planning later on getting a blu-ray drive for my server to rip movies. I was planning on using .MKV's with MakeMKV, but....

The other thing too is they are always working and adding new features. The next installment is supposed to have a a PVR backbone. I wouldn't be surprised if we get some sort of blu-ray structure support eventually.

http://xbmc.org/theuni/2010/02/06/coming-soon/


In the end they are moving at a good pace supporting their software.

With the Ion platform you cannot bitstream HD audio. You can only do with the 5xxx GPU, Clarkdale, or Xonar sound card.

I throw all my Blu Rays into mkv as well. You can see some guides I put together here:

http://www.mediasmartserver.net/tag/mkv/

I am definitely interested to see how well XBMC does with intergating the PVR backend (I think for windows users you will be able to use the Media Portal TV Server)
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post #20 of 148
4/23/10 at 11:47am
Ya when you look at the progression of XBMC it just seems safer to me.

This HD audio problem for you guys does seem frustrating.

The relationship with my A-100 is a love hate relationship.
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post #21 of 148
4/23/10 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kneedragger View Post

I honestly don't know about the HD audio. For some reason I recall some guys getting it with their Revo's in this forum? I could be wrong.

The Blu-ray thing... For me right now I don't have any blu-ray stuff, but I was planning later on getting a blu-ray drive for my server to rip movies. I was planning on using .MKV's with MakeMKV, but....

The other thing too is they are always working and adding new features. The next installment is supposed to have a a PVR backbone. I wouldn't be surprised if we get some sort of blu-ray structure support eventually.

http://xbmc.org/theuni/2010/02/06/coming-soon/


In the end they are moving at a good pace supporting their software.


Another thing about this Popbox that bothers me that just dawned on me.... Why is it getting a preorder on Amazon when we know nothing? I would never commit to a piece of hardware like this with out knowing everything about it.

I would prefer to go XBMC too, but the reality is that they have very poor support right now for things like HD audio... not to mention that when you compare pricing and might want multiple streamers a PCH looks more attractive than getting a $300 or more ION2 based Revo and getting 1/2 baked (current) support for things like audio playing without glitches, poor remote interface, HDMI issues, etc.

I know PVR is a big deal to a lot of people but I frankly could care less about it. I have a TiVo that I'm 100% happy with when it comes to PVR duties.

I'm far more interested in future BD folder/iso support (even though I'm currently doing MKV for all of my BD rips) and even more important is HD audio support both PCM conversion and native bitstream.
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post #22 of 148
4/23/10 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

With the Ion platform you cannot bitstream HD audio. You can only do with the 5xxx GPU, Clarkdale, or Xonar sound card.

I throw all my Blu Rays into mkv as well. You can see some guides I put together here:

http://www.mediasmartserver.net/tag/mkv/

I am definitely interested to see how well XBMC does with intergating the PVR backend (I think for windows users you will be able to use the Media Portal TV Server)

Correct but XBMC does natively decode TrueHD. no DTS-MA from any open source solution till the licensing agreement changes...

The big difference here is that many view media server as video server and many of us actually use the pictures and audio features and give them equal if not more weight than video. It all depends on what you want to accomplish. and YAMJ does make the PCH pretty but its still slow and not the same experience you get in XBMC or 7MC.

do we know for certain that ION2 will not bitstream?

Sean
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post #23 of 148
4/23/10 at 12:58pm
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Originally Posted by sean_w_smith View Post

Correct but XBMC does natively decode TrueHD. no DTS-MA from any open source solution till the licensing agreement changes...

The big difference here is that many view media server as video server and many of us actually use the pictures and audio features and give them equal if not more weight than video. It all depends on what you want to accomplish. and YAMJ does make the PCH pretty but its still slow and not the same experience you get in XBMC or 7MC.

do we know for certain that ION2 will not bitstream?

Sean

I agree, my main players in my house are still HTPCs running MediaBrowser, never felt like any other media device (such as the PCH) fully replaced the HTPC experience.

Yes, ION2 will not bitstream. NVidia is pretty behind on this, as none of their GPUs bitstream either. I would actually be on the lookout for nettops based off of the core i3/i5, which will give you bitstreaming in a SFF, no need for a dedicated GPU
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post #24 of 148
4/23/10 at 1:38pm
Thread Starter 
And maybe this is where my "media" experience differs, because all I really want is a movie player; I am PERFECTLY happy with my Squeezebox Duets for audio, and I don't do pictures in any way, shape, or form.

So maybe my take on the the A-110 still being "better" than the 2 subsequent releases is unique; maybe the C/A-200 are better at audio and photos...because I can't see how they can be considered "better" at video. Again, because I only use it as a movie player, the quote-unquote Flash GUI will have to come a l o n g way to best YAMJ anyway, so what do the C/A-200 get you? A slightly faster screen-change? Don't they still get buried using SAMBA? So I see almost no upside, against what is the enormous downside (for me, and I have to imagine countless others) of re-ripping.

And the same goes for PopBox; maybe as an all-in-one, it still has something to offer that bests the other PCH boxes; but until one of these machines can stream lossless from ts/m2ts...and then offer something extra...I can't see moving up from my A-110. I'm so glad I didn't sell it prematurely, when I had every intention of the C-200 replacing it; considering the landscape, it's worth its weight in gold.

CD
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post #25 of 148
4/23/10 at 1:43pm
The A110 might be the greatest thing since sliced bread if movie viewing is your primary goal. There's a problem though. There is no longer a source of new A110 units other than the occasional find on eBay.

Many of us are only now getting into the movie streaming game now that the price of massive amounts of storage and appropriate server boxes have moved down from the "prosumer" to the "enthusiast" pricing level... so, lack of A110 hardware doesn't do me a bit of good.

The reality is that there really is NO box on the market right now that delivers the majority of what users want.

I can forgive HD audio support in the short term because I know that we will get there eventually. I also only have one location in the home that requires HD audio because none of my other locations even have an HDMI equipped AVR.

If Popbox can surprise us with Netflix and other leading content provider support it will be a big, big deal, even if the .mkv support is not perfect right now.

As time goes on and more and more people want to stream and archive their video collection it will become more of an issue... but hopefully by then we start to see increasing numbers of polished units that make mince meat of hd audio, subtitles support, iso support, etc.

For the real serious enthusiasts out there, nothing other than full BD ISO support will make them happy anyways as they will insist on full menus, special features, etc.
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post #26 of 148
4/23/10 at 2:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

For the real serious enthusiasts out there, nothing other than full BD ISO support will make them happy anyways as they will insist on full menus, special features, etc.

Well I agree...that the PopBox can have its place if it does online content very well, but doesn't deliver lossless audio in every container available. For example, it wouldn't do in my HT, but might work in the Family Room, on the Kuro. But what prompted this thread, was the fact that rumors are swirling that it won't do online very well...that content providers seem to have jumped...and Syabas won't come out and say what it will and won't do.

For example...let's say the A-110 is a movie-playing dream-machine, and the C-200 offers a drive bay, and BD ISO support...and the faster processor; and the A-200 is a C-200, but for those that don't need the drive bay? So if the PopBox is supposed to be a different animal...and it turns out, in order to get Netflix, and Hulu...and potentially the Networks on-board, Syabas had to agree to make the thing less, shall we say, "pirate-friendly"...lol. Also, maybe a traditional retail channel like Amazon, or BB, might balk at a product that was seen to be "skirting the law" in some regard. OK; I'm OK with that. I'm OK with Syabas saying "look, if you want this...get a C-200...want that; that's an A-200. But this is PopBox, and this is what PopBox is geared to do". Has Syabas done that? Not to my knowledge; I still keep hearing they're going to fix this ts/m2ys "bug". It doesn't take 9 months (or however long the C-200 has been out) to fix a "bug"...and I hear plenty of customers...loyal, existing customers...asking for explanations, and getting none.

Also jmpage, I reject the notion that I'm not a "real serious enthusiast" because I don't want all the menu BS on a BD. In fact, I could...and would...make the argument that makes me more of an enthusiast; but that's just semantics.

CD
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post #27 of 148
4/23/10 at 2:41pm
Netflix is no Big deal Asus will soon add to there SDK At Least on the `AIR`,
Many more will follow,HDX should get there Major update out in the Next 7 days..Popcorn have Everything to Prove,But of course there not on there own in this there are Others to are Falling Behind and Moving on there Next Genaration without Soughting out there Present Mistakes/Bugs/Problems,of course this is not good enough and Users are starting not to listen to the Hype.
It will get Better..there`s Big and Small companys seeing these mistakes being made and will capatalise on these in the Near Future,the Next Few Months will be very interesting as the fog clears for those companys who Really do deliver .


Talas
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post #28 of 148
4/23/10 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by talas View Post

Netflix is no Big deal Asus will soon add to there SDK At Least on the `AIR`,
Many more will follow,HDX should get there Major update out in the Next 7 days..Popcorn have Everything to Prove,But of course there not on there own in this there are Others to are Falling Behind and Moving on there Next Genaration without Soughting out there Present Mistakes/Bugs/Problems,of course this is not good enough and Users are starting not to listen to the Hype.
It will get Better..there`s Big and Small companys seeing these mistakes being made and will capatalise on these in the Near Future,the Next Few Months will be very interesting as the fog clears for those companys who Really do deliver .


Talas

I would argue that Netflix IS a big deal (at least in the U.S). The reason, these media players will get business from us enthusiast regardless of netflix, no issue there. But if any of these players want to get into the Mainstream then they need a product that the average consumer can relate to. In the US, Netflix has quickly become that product. That is the point of the PopBox, to get mainstream acceptance. This is something that the HDX, PCH, etc... are not necessarily going after, nor would they honestly even be able to achieve in current form.
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post #29 of 148
4/23/10 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I would prefer to go XBMC too, but the reality is that they have very poor support right now for things like HD audio... not to mention that when you compare pricing and might want multiple streamers a PCH looks more attractive than getting a $300 or more ION2 based Revo and getting 1/2 baked (current) support for things like audio playing without glitches, poor remote interface, HDMI issues, etc.

I know PVR is a big deal to a lot of people but I frankly could care less about it. I have a TiVo that I'm 100% happy with when it comes to PVR duties.

I'm far more interested in future BD folder/iso support (even though I'm currently doing MKV for all of my BD rips) and even more important is HD audio support both PCM conversion and native bitstream.


Ya I don't care for the PVR stuff because I use a DVR too.

The thing that I'm noticing is we have two groups. People that want a device for movies and a group that wants a device for HD audio.


The only thing I can say from what I have seen is when it comes to producing what they say they have to offer is Syabas falls short.

Syabas says it does this and will do this soon. They tend to do 90% of what they say its supposed to do and take forever to fix it if they ever do fix it.

With XBMC..since its software compare to hardware I guess its not a real good comparison, but it seems like they are faster at fixing stuff and tell you what they are working on and come through with the new features in a timely manner.


Now if XBMC were to go out and have a company build a settop box specifically for their software it might be different...


I'm sorry that my comments seem to be going off track of the thread.

I just hate that rewind still doesnt work on my A-100 with most if all files. This kind of issue bothers me when they haven't come out with info on the Poopbox.
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post #30 of 148
4/23/10 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

I would argue that Netflix IS a big deal (at least in the U.S). The reason, these media players will get business from us enthusiast regardless of netflix, no issue there. But if any of these players want to get into the Mainstream then they need a product that the average consumer can relate to. In the US, Netflix has quickly become that product. That is the point of the PopBox, to get mainstream acceptance. This is something that the HDX, PCH, etc... are not necessarily going after, nor would they honestly even be able to achieve in current form.

My friend no Big Deal in terms of it will be on many Players.


Talas
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