Headphone Audiophiles - Page 30

I was surprised by the way the O2 interacted with the HD800.

The Sennheisers are noticeably more sensitive than my Denons, yet on the O2 (zero gain setting) I had to turn the volume knob all the way up to 2:00 compared to 9:00 on the Denons. With all the other amps, i had to turn the volume down with the Senns after listening to the Denons. And the Senns did sound bad through the O2 - to the point I am wondering if there was something wrong with it.

I agree with your assessment of my amps. I sold all of them because none of them raised the bar above what I already had - and that was well before I acquired the HD800.

Now with the HD800's I do hold a glimmer of hope because they did sound good with the Burson. I have also heard good things about its pairing with the V200, which I will audition tomorrow.

That suggests that they were all properly designed amplifiers - an amplifier is not supposed to have a "sound" to it.

With headphone amplifiers, output impedance is very important, but as long as it is low enough, and the noise floor is below the threshold of audibility, they should all sound the same.

If an amp is sounding different from the others, it is probably not neutral.

My friend came by with his Violectric V200 and Woo Audio WA7 today. They sounded basically the same to me too. My firend is a professional sound engineer and he claims to hear differences in micro detail, but i couldnt hear what he did.

He also brought his Beyer T90 and HD600 - both sounded bloated on my Carver - the T90 was absolutely aweful!

All the headphones sounded great on the V200 :-)

For grins, we moved the V200 down to my home theater and compared it to the headphone output from my Pioneer Elite AVR. Damned if I could tell any difference between them. Again, my friend pointed out some microscopic differences he could detect (the decay of a banjo pluck being minutely tighter defined on the V200 and more blurred on my Pioneer) but i couldnt hear it.

I am reminded that most of the talk about amps and DACs over at head-fi is pure hyperbole. I am more convinced than ever that I dont need an expensive head amp to make the HD800 sound good.

I have fallen in love with the HD800 - it is an incredible headphone that reproduces music like no other I have ever heard. It's balanced, musical, accurate, fun, and open/airy all at once. But I am convinced it needs a very high damping factor to sound its best. So now im thinking i will either find a SS headamp and DAC to place next to my Carver, or move my Carver to my office system and replace it with a modern integrated amp.
Edited by palmfish - 3/16/13 at 5:50pm

I mostly agree with you. I will point out that unless we were in the studio when the recording was made/mastered, we cannot know which is the "neutral amp."

Also I think there are some experienced listeners who can hear more than just frequency response when they listen to music. Critical listeners can hear processing artifacts and micro details that casual listeners do not notice. Test equipment (such as the analyser NWAVGuy uses) can reveal the presence of these characteristics (waterfall plots, square wave response, etc).

Even though i have been an audio enthusiast for 40 years, i cannot detect these small details with any certainty and Im not interested in listening for them when i play my music.

The problem isn't the age of your Carver, it's the model. I have a Carver CT 1 preamp (mid 1980's) that does an excellent job powering my HD-600's and my AKG-K702s. I don't agree with the notion (posted here earlier) that older equipment invariably had inferior headphone outputs.

I didn't mean it was inferior BECAUSE of its age.

I mean that, because of its age, its heaphone out likely has a very high output impedance.

My Receiver is for all purposes a C-1 Preamp and a TFM-25 amplifier in one box. The HD600 also sounds a little bloated and bassy through my Receiver. Its not terrible (my daughter actually prefers it to the modern amps Ive compared it too), but it is obvious.

Looking for an amp for my new Sennheiser HD800, is Teac HA501 good enough for them,or to go for smth else,any opinion? Thanks.

Yes its for that reason why I suggested a very good tube amp with the right tubes for the HD-800. What I don't think you are hearing is the massive surround soundstage (out of head) that the HD-800's can achieve. Plus you should be hearing more background detail than it seems you are hearing.

A good amp for these headphones is a Cavalli Liquid Fire Headphone Amplifier, the tubes that come with the LF are ok but for that amp I think a set of 4 Siemens/Halske 6922=E88CC=CCa early 60's is the best. The second best are the Siemens/Halske 6922 from the early 70"s.

I have tried the WA6-SE and vintage 70's Pioneer amp, but these two amps could not come close to the WA5-LE or the Cavalli Liquid Fire.

ss

You did post this: "Newer receivers (such as our Pioneers), for the most part, have seperate (discrete) headphone sections (usually opamp driven). Older vintage amps (like my Carver), on the other hand, power headphones off the main (speaker) amp with resistors to step down the power." That is what led me to conclude it was the age of the receiver you were citing as the problem. I don't know the output impedance of the C1's headphone jack--it's not in the specs, and I have no idea how to measure it.

And your point?

So far I have only listened to the HD800 with the Schiit Lyr and WA7. The Lyr was on the bright and thin side and the WA7 sounded basically the same as the V200. I did meet someone with a Liquid Fire, but his rig has LCD-2s, which I dont care for. Some folks have also suggested the Decware CSP2 as a good tube amp that works well with the 800s.

I was told the stock tubes that come with the Lyr arent great and that amp sounds much better with the proper tubes. I don't know, Im not ready to go down that road.... I figure with tubes, Im coloring the sound with distortion and its inevitable that I am robbing from Peter to pay Paul.

I'm pretty certain that I will stick with solid state just to avoid another "quest for synergy" that us head-fiers seem to perpetually get wrapped up in. Takes the guesswork out of the pairing.

My point is that you did make a post blaming older equipment for having poorer headphone amps than newer equipment, then wondered how I thought that's what you meant. I thought it because you stated it. Let's move on...

I never said "poorer." Just different (and not necessarily suited for modern headphones)

Yes the quest for the right tubes is a hard one. And that's why in both my tube amps I use some very hard to find (nos+) tubes. However once you finally get these tubes and use a headphone like the HD-800 there is nothing that will come close with that type of headphone. For example try and find a nos+ matched (week and year) original WE300B's form the 50's.
Anyway I have not gotten any new tube's for about 2 years now.

The only SS amp I have found that works very well imo, is the Stax SRD-727 when matched with a pair of Stax SR-009's.

ss

Unobtainium is a siren song.

 

Buying Unobtainium by the tube is vastly more time-consuming and expensive than simply purchasing a neutral amp with low output impedance. Unless the tuber is attempting use their amp as an equalizer by varying its distortion, buying more than (for example) an Objective2, Benchmark DAC1, etc., provides no audible benefit (claims by the self-proclaimed golden-eared [sic] notwithstanding.) Superstition dies slowly, if ever, and unlike the old days it's now spread by forum.

Agreed.

The old days never die.

SS brought sizzle and maybe some steak too. It's when he goes on these tube rants that I get worried about too much sizzle.

FWIW I have a Benchmark DAC1 HDR. But we're in rarefied amp air now, and I've nowhere near the Sennheiser HD800 headphones that palmfish is trying to make up his mind about. I did check Amazon and see that the price of the HD800 is increased (!) from the last time I looked; I wonder if the current HD800 is the same or somehow improved?

markrubin has the Sennheiser HD800 and also the Benchmark DAC1 HDR, so perhaps he'll comment on the DAC1 HDR.

Without ever hearing what I am talking about, how can you comment about it. We are talking about the HD-800's and pairing them to a amp that brings out the best in the type of audio we like.
The biggest reason in not going down the tube amp path is there are two many bad tubes for sale and it is really a trail and error problem.
After all a tube is basically a circuit in the circuity of a amp. So therefore depending on how the tube amp is designed you can tailor it to suit your likes and dislikes of the sound you are hearing from a headphone.
I agree that if you can find the right match for your targeted headphones and taste that a SS amp is the better way to go. However for the HD-800's i have never heard a SS amp that bring out the best in the HD-800's for my tastes.

Unless the tuber is attempting use their amp as an equalizer by varying its distortion

If you are going to the price range of a Benchmark DAC1 HDR, then I might suggest looking at the Oppo BDP 105 pairing with the HD-800's. I never have heard this model with its dedicated headphone jack, but I do have a Oppo BDP 95 and as a transport/DAC combo it is very nice sounding with the HD 800's.

ss

The early reviews of the headphone amp I read in the 105 forum were sort of 'its ok, nothing spectacular' type reviews. It will make a great source though for sure. I use my 95 in that regard.

Nice suggestion. Thank you.

FWIW, an Oppo 105 is on my short list; but a possible move may delay that.

And also thank you for your 2nd response.

'its ok, nothing spectacular' has to be taken in context.

Comments of those that already have an excellent Oppo 95, and now gotten an Oppo 105, makes it clear that 'its ok, nothing spectacular' has merit.

I read 105 thread/forum reviews as being more of the nature of those not coming from an Oppo 95.

Anyway the Oppo 105 is on my short list.

When/if I do get one, it'll be interesting to compare it's headphone amp with my Benchmark DAC1's headphone amp, which I know to be excellent. But then see my sig of "The best is the enemy of the good."

 

Oppo makes great products. I still have one of the original BDP93 pre-orders. But, not a single one of them is audibly superior even to the O2. You're mistaken, again, that because one product is superior to another simply because it's more expensive or has glowing, NOS tubes made in 1954 and imported from a tiny shop in rural Uzbekistan. I'm sure you remember this lesson from your experience with magical but grossly-overpriced cable replacements. Then, you recommend pairing [sic] some product even though you "never have heard this model." Why?

 

Unobtainium is the rarest element in the universe. You've never heard it.

Have you ever tried any tube combo I am talking about. Or the SS SRM 727 with a pair of SR-009's. I think not.
fyi; I got the WE300B nos tubes from here. http://alabamahistoricalradiosociety.org/index.html
These guys have a large collection of very rare tubes, they where selling off a few of there rare tubes to fund a new addition.
I would suggest you reread the my post about the Oppo. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1245475/headphone-audiophiles/870#post_23106753

It is clear to me that you just want to play and debate something it seems that you don't really have a understanding about.
Believe what you want to believe, I don't really care.
Have a nice day, bye.

 

The name-dropping of various and sundry equipment is not only unimpressive, it's evasive.

 

This is still the AVScience Forum. You could start by proving the assertion above. Then it might be appropriate to continue.

Time already for the monthly objective vs. subjective debate?

Is someone going to actually "win" this time?

move on please

I was at Axpona in Chicago and heard the hifiman he-6 driven by the matching amp. I thought they sounded fantastic. I have been to head-fi, that site can be overwhelming. Anyone here have any experience with the he-6's with or without the ef-6 amp?

I have a pair of HE-6 and yes with a proper amp they are wonderful. I am guessing you heard them with a hifiman EF-6 amp, I have never tried a EF-6 amp.
The two tube (WA5LE and Liquid fire) amps I have both do a nice job with the HE-6, at-least the way I have them set-up.

imo, the HE-6 is a cross between the HD-800's and the SR-009's.

Yes there are many different opinions on the right amp for the HE-6. Some will say to use a vintage 70's amplifier by adding a resistor to the 2ch output.

ss