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DBP2011 & DBP-1611 owner's thread. All questions and comments go here. - Page 12

post #331 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

The 1611 Super Audio CD audio signals are output at 44.1 kHz/16-bit when the HDMI output is used.

This information is in conflict with the information I was told more than a month ago which supposedly originated from Jeff Talmadge at Denon:

"Full resolution SACD DSD will be output via HDMI on both players."

There is of course the concern whether that means the full DSD will require a DSD capable receiver and whether a conversion to PCM will result in such extreme downsampling. High-quality SACD via HDMI PCM should just be a given.

As others have mentioned, we'll need to wait for someone with a good music collection and sensitive ears who actually purchases one of these units to get the verdict. I have pretty high expectations of Denon, and I have often wondered if the delay in shipping these units has been the result of the development team scrambling to patch a few overlooked issues that they noticed only because someone inquired.

Gosh, vinyl never got this complicated.
Will it play 12"?
Sure.
Will it play 7"?
Sure.
Will it play 10"?
If you manually place the needle on the record, yes.
Will it play stereo?
Sure.
Will it play mono?
Sure.
Will it play quadraphonic?
If the quad format was compatible with stereo record players and a proper decoder is used, yes. Otherwise, no, or in some cases limited sound reproduction will be achieved.
Will it play 33 RPM?
Sure.
Will it play 45 RPM?
Sure.
Will it play 78 RPM?
No.
Will it play 16 RPM?
No.
post #332 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Strange. I got the opposite answer from Denon [regarding SACD output]. Of course, as soon as someone actually uses one of these, we will know.

Kal, you're obviously very well informed on this topic, but did you pin down Denon on the semantics? I think we'd need to specifically say "SACD over HDMI as PCM." What exactly did you ask them, and exactly what did they say?

So far, I suspect the response Denon apparently has given others ("full-resolution SACD DSD will be output via HDMI on both players") refers to DSD over HDMI, not PCM, which does lots of people no good. Certainly doesn't help me.

I've always assumed the new Denons (and their Marantz cousins) will downgrade SACD to 16/44.1 simply because the DBP-4011 and DVD-A1 already do. (Which isn't to say I ever understood why the 4011 and A1 do; I've never heard an explanation for that.) But I suspect the new players share a lot of the same circuitry with their high-priced predecessors.

If you ever review one of these things, please get to the bottom of this issue for all of the players since the DVD-A1.
post #333 of 1055
I asked Denon whether there was "full resolution PCM via HDMI from SACDs." Afterwards, I agreed to review one of them as I had declined to review the preceding models specifically because of their deficiency in this matter.

I asked a similar question of Marantz. I both cases my contact was at the VP level. No guarantees, of course.
post #334 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I asked Denon whether there was "full resolution PCM via HDMI from SACDs." Afterwards, I agreed to review one of them as I had declined to review the preceding models specifically because of their deficiency in this matter.

That last part is too funny. I think it might have served us all well, though, had you reviewed the A1 or 4010 and specifically made issue of the fact that SACD was being downconverted when delivered as PCM over HDMI when the trusty (and much less expensive) Oppo was delivering 24/88.2. I kinda-sorta understood D&M's approach for the players with DenonLink, but for Marantz? They're supposed to be the premium models!

Quote:


I asked a similar question of Marantz. I both cases my contact was at the VP level. No guarantees, of course.

You don't think the VPs could have this wrong, do you?

OK, let's say your sources are right. What kinda demand can they expect for the four existing high-end Denon/Marantz universal players? I know that price is no object to some people, and I know that exclusivity has a value all its own, but one has to wonder how many $6,000 Blu-ray players Marantz can hope to ship when, in certain ways, the new mid-line players render them obsolete.
post #335 of 1055
I had always taken 'full DSD' to mean bitstream unless 'PCM' is explicitly mentioned. Even with DL at least I don't know what happens with DSD-PCM conversion in the AVR so it cannot be taken for granted all is well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I asked Denon whether there was "full resolution PCM via HDMI from SACDs."

Was it more recently because that's not what you said before (post #34)
post #336 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brownstone View Post

That last part is too funny. I think it might have served us all well, though, had you reviewed the A1 or 4010 and specifically made issue of the fact that SACD was being downconverted when delivered as PCM over HDMI when the trusty (and much less expensive) Oppo was delivering 24/88.2. I kinda-sorta understood D&M's approach for the players with DenonLink, but for Marantz? They're supposed to be the premium models!

As for a review, there are too many products to get to that I would want to spend time and ink on something that has, imho, serious deficiencies.

Quote:


You don't think the VPs could have this wrong, do you?

No one's perfect.

Quote:


OK, let's say your sources are right. What kinda demand can they expect for the four existing high-end Denon/Marantz universal players? I know that price is no object to some people, and I know that exclusivity has a value all its own, but one has to wonder how many $6,000 Blu-ray players Marantz can hope to ship when, in certain ways, the new mid-line players render them obsolete.

I believe they are targeting the big machines to people who prize their analog outputs (or DLINK).
post #337 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Was it more recently because that's not what you said before (post #34)

Yes.
post #338 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I believe they are targeting the big machines to people who prize their analog outputs (or DLINK).

...and/or people who take satisfaction in spending the money from their deep pockets.
post #339 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I believe they are targeting the big machines to people who prize their analog outputs (or DLINK).

That's actually a very-good answer. In fact, I almost always use analog outputs/inputs for music myself.

On the other hand, I'm sure we all agree on this much: No SACD-capable player, at any price, through any method of output, should be summarily throwing away DSD bits for which we paid good money. It just ain't right, man!
post #340 of 1055
Hopefully a few of you out there will be able to bring a hybrid SACD to a store with a demo model hooked up to a receiver through HDMI. Step 1: Listen to the CD layer. Step 2: Listen to the stereo SACD layer. (You might want to bring along a good set of headphones for this test too). If the word up about downsampling the PCM to 16/44.1 is correct, then both layers should sound identical or so close to identical that it makes no difference. If the player actually does that, the only possible benefit one could get with SACD over CD through HDMI with these players is 5.1 CD-quality sound (as opposed to stereo) from the SACD which is definitely not worth it. I was really looking forward to the 1611 so that I could get rid of a mass of analog cables and a switch box that I have attached to my system. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that we actually get 5.1-channel 24/96 or 192 out of the DSD to PCM conversion.
post #341 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

...and/or people who take satisfaction in spending the money from their deep pockets.

Considering the DBP2011 has literally zero competition - nothing else has 3D, ABT2010/2015, and high qual analog outputs - the money would be well spent.
post #342 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Considering the DBP2011 has literally zero competition - nothing else has 3D, ABT2010/2015, and high qual analog outputs - the money would be well spent.

The 2011 wouldn't be the type of player I was referring to, but more the "high end" players that cost thousands as opposed to hundreds.
post #343 of 1055
I'm still unclear about two things:

1. Is Denon USA, despite previous inquiries of DSD-PCM resolution, actually aware that some of us seriously want DSD-PCM at higher than CD resolution?
2. Is DSD-PCM at 16/44.1 in Denon players a hardware (DSD decoder chip) or software (firmware) limitation?

If nobody knows for sure I can ask Denon. What is the best email to reach the most appropriate person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

...bring a hybrid SACD to a store ... If the word up about downsampling the PCM to 16/44.1 is correct, then both layers should sound identical...

No need. A HDMI AVR should tell you objectively what sample frequencies the incoming PCM is at. In any case A/B tests have already been done.
post #344 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

If nobody knows for sure I can ask Denon. What is the best email to reach the most appropriate person?

Check your inbox
post #345 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

1. Is Denon USA, despite previous inquiries of DSD-PCM resolution, actually aware that some of us seriously want DSD-PCM at higher than CD resolution?

Yes. I have spoken with Denon and Marantz folks about this in extenso.
post #346 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

The 2011 wouldn't be the type of player I was referring to, but more the "high end" players that cost thousands as opposed to hundreds.

Yeah in the case of the multi-thousand dollar BD players, it is difficult to quantify what real world improvements you are getting for your money.
post #347 of 1055
I've been wondering for months why Denon is choosing the handle 3D capability with a firmware upgrade to these players despite the 3D BD spec having been codified last fall. In the midst of doing research on a likely new Mitsu DLP display purchase, I came across a 3D FAQ that I personally found very revealing.

http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/3D.html

Things are much more complicated than I thought. Now I understand why we've seen manufacturer "bundles" of glasses, displays and a 3D BD title. I didn't understand previously that there are two other standards at issue 'downstream' from the BD: One contemplates the format of the 3D signal transmitted via HDMI (frame packing, side-by-side, top bottom) to the display device. Remarkably, Mitsu sets require the 3D signal be in a format the transmission of which is not mandated by the HDMI 1.4a standard (the "checkerboard" format, which I had not heard of), thereby necessitating use of a 3D adapter . . . sold separately of course.

The second contemplates the transmission by an emitter of the synch signal between the display and the glasses (which, unlike those we wear theatrically, are active--thus the reason the emitter and glasses must match . . . unless they are DLP Link glasses, which I had also not heard of). This transmission can be IR, RF, Bluetooth or "special white image."

The whole thing is worth a read IMO if you're interested in 3D. But the responses to questions 11 and 12 at the end were the ones which underscored my feeling that this is gonna be a bumpy ride.

Quote:


Q11: Are all 3D active shutter glasses compatible with each other?

A11: No. For active shutter glasses, the glasses need to be synchronized to the display of images on the TV. This is normally done by a synchronization emitter. The most common type of emitter send IR (infrared light) signal to the glasses. Other types can be RF, Bluetooth, special white image etc. This means the glasses and emitter must match.

The DLP Link system uses special white images for synchronization. The DLP Link white image signal protocol has been standardized so DLP Link type glasses from all manufacturers should work with all DLP TVs that support DLP Link. However, DLP Link TVs must be DLP TVs, not plasma or LCD. For IR type of emitters, currently there is no standardized protocol for the format of actual IR signal. This means the glasses and the IR emitter must be designed to match each other. This is also true for RF types of glasses and emitters. The CEA and glasses manufacturers are working together to establish standardized IR signal protocols however until that work has been completed there is no guarantee that glasses from one manufacturer will work with the emitters from another manufacturer. There is a standardized connection jack for separate synchronization emitters. This standard was established by VESA (Video Electronics Standards Association). Mitsubishi provides this jack on all of the Mitsubishi 3D Ready and 3D TVs. Most separate synchronization emitters, IR, RF or other type, are designed to use a VESA jack and are compatible with the Mitsubishi TV. Please return to this site for updates on 3D glasses as the information becomes available.

Q12: You have mentioned 3D signal formats and the need to convert to the checkerboard format to show on the Mitsubishi TVs. I am confused about these formats.

A12: There are several different formats for 3D signals possible; however the HDMI 1.4a specifications defined some types as mandatory for transfer over the HDMI cable. Most signals will be one of these types of mandatory signals. These fall into 3 general categories:

Frame Packing — a very high resolution 3D signal that requires a lot of bandwidth — this is not suitable for most broadcasting over Cable TV systems or Satellite systems. It is very suitable for Blu-ray disc and gaming systems. For the USA, there is 1080p at 24 frames per second — sent by Blu-ray players and 720p at 60 frames per second expected to be used by future gaming consoles.

Side-By-side — this is where a normal video frame actually contains two frames (one for each eye) and if not processed as a 3D signal would look like two pictures side by side on the screen of the TV. In the USA most of these signals will be 1080p 24 or 30 frames per second, 1080i 60 fields per second, or 720p 60 frames per second. These signals are suitable for broadcast applications.

Top-Bottom — this is similar to Side-by-Side where the normal video frame actually contains two frames except the normal frame is divided in haft top to bottom. Again the in the USA most of these will be 1080p 24, or 30 frames per second, 1080i 60 fields per second or 720p 60 frames per second. These types of signal are also suitable for broadcast.

The Checkerboard format is really designed as method of displaying 3D on the TV and not expected to be used to send 3D signals to your home. The Mitsubishi 3D TVs display 3D using the checkerboard format so the Mitsubishi 3D Adapter is designed to convert the Frame packing, side-by-side and top-bottom signals mentioned above to the checkerboard format.
post #348 of 1055
I keep checking this thread everyday hoping that someone will finally be able to verify the status for SACD playback via HDMI.
Already asked my friend who just recently installed a 1611 in a client's home, but nobody had any SACD's so that turned out to be a dead end.
Would love to place an order for a 1611 or (2011 when released) providing they can output FULL SACD resolution via HDMI, but I won't settle for anything less.
post #349 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

I keep checking this thread everyday hoping that someone will finally be able to verify the status for SACD playback via HDMI.
Already asked my friend who just recently installed a 1611 in a client's home, but nobody had any SACD's so that turned out to be a dead end.
Would love to place an order for a 1611 or (2011 when released) providing they can output FULL SACD resolution via HDMI, but I won't settle for anything less.

I just got another email from JR telling me my order is still on back order. I keep hoping that it will ship any day so we can put this issue to rest.
post #350 of 1055
I wonder what video chip they are using in the 1611 and how does the blu-ray PQ compare to the Sony 1000ES that is currently selling for $180?
post #351 of 1055
blu-ray PQ over HDMI is basically the same for all players, especially if your display can handle 1080p/24. 1080p/24 straight off the disc will look the same, the player is just a transport.
post #352 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

Hopefully a few of you out there will be able to bring a hybrid SACD to a store with a demo model hooked up to a receiver through HDMI. Step 1: Listen to the CD layer. Step 2: Listen to the stereo SACD layer. (You might want to bring along a good set of headphones for this test too). If the word up about downsampling the PCM to 16/44.1 is correct, then both layers should sound identical or so close to identical that it makes no difference. If the player actually does that, the only possible benefit one could get with SACD over CD through HDMI with these players is 5.1 CD-quality sound (as opposed to stereo) from the SACD which is definitely not worth it. I was really looking forward to the 1611 so that I could get rid of a mass of analog cables and a switch box that I have attached to my system. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that we actually get 5.1-channel 24/96 or 192 out of the DSD to PCM conversion.

An even better "test" would be if the player is connected to a receiver like the Denon 4310 which has an "Audio Information" display in the menu which will tell you exactly what the sample freq. and bit depth are of the incoming signal. I have used this myself when playing some new 96/24 downloads which were being downsampled by some improper settings in my player. After I corrected the settings, I was able to see the 96/24 input on that information screen in my Denon AVR. Then I knew for sure exactly what was going into it and this function would also work very well to decide this issue about the SACD PCM output of the new Denon players.
post #353 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post

When I hook up my DBP-1611 to my Denon 4308 is it going to show Multi-Channel In or is it going to show Master Audio when I play a disk in Master Audio. Right now I have a PS3 and when I am in the PS3 forum they say this is normal. Will it finally read Master Audio?

That all depends on how you have the player's audio output set. If you set it to PCM, your AVR display will only show Multi-channel. If you want to see the "DTS-HD M" displayed, you need to set the player to Bitstream the audio and then the AVR will do the decoding and tell you what type of audio it is decoding. That is the one big (to me) advantage of bitstreaming over PCM as they sound the same, but you aren't sure exactly what you are getting from the player when it says Multi-channel. I hope this helps!
post #354 of 1055
I just downloaded the user manual for the Denon 1611 and it clearly states that, "Contents of DTS-HD MA 5.1ch/192 khz are output as 5.1 ch/96 khz."
On a related topic that has been discussed here, it appears to indicate the DSD is output at full resolution over HDMI as LPCM, but not as clearly as the above: "If the connected HDMI device does not support DSD, the signal is output as Linear PCM".
I hope this helps, at least somewhat, those who had questions about possible downsampling of the SACD signal and also downsampling of DTS-HD MA via LPCM with HDMI output. Based on my reading of the manual (hurriedly), I do not believe the SACD output is downsampled either as DSD output or as LPCM output, but that is just my opinion based on the limited information in the manual. Overall, I was very impressed with what I saw in the manual and will probably buy this unit in the near future. My AVR (Denon) will directly accept a DSD signal over HDMI, so that is what I plan to use.
post #355 of 1055
I have also read the manual several times and have found no clear or precise mention of the SACD output.
I could find NO given numbers given indicating the frequency output for SACD via HDMI.
The manual is however very clear for blu-ray audio output.

Spoke recently to my local Denon Dealer and it now appears all there orders for the 1611 are on back order as well.
I have a feeling it's going to be a while before anybody actually gets one of these and we can get confirmation on the SACD output of this player.
Was really hoping on getting a 1611 after selling my Denon 3800 blu-ray player, but since it doesn't appear it will be happening soon enough, (availability and unknown SACD output) I decided to pick up a Sony 1000ES in the interim.
post #356 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post

I just got another email from JR telling me my order is still on back order. I keep hoping that it will ship any day so we can put this issue to rest.

I have a preorder in with my local shop for a 2011. I got a call on monday telling me that the release was pushed back to Sept. It was kind of deflating.
post #357 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

I have also read the manual several times and have found no clear or precise mention of the SACD output.
I could find NO given numbers given indicating the frequency output for SACD via HDMI.
The manual is however very clear for blu-ray audio output.

Spoke recently to my local Denon Dealer and it now appears all there orders for the 1611 are on back order as well.
I have a feeling it's going to be a while before anybody actually gets one of these and we can get confirmation on the SACD output of this player.
Was really hoping on getting a 1611 after selling my Denon 3800 blu-ray player, but since it doesn't appear it will be happening soon enough, (availability and unknown SACD output) I decided to pick up a Sony 1000ES in the interim.

You know you are downgrading pq wise going from the 3800bd... I guess you have other reasons.
post #358 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by batborsen View Post

You know you are downgrading pq wise going from the 3800bd... I guess you have other reasons.

Yes, I realize this.

I really had my sites initially set on getting a 2011 (good video chip) to replace my two Denon players (3800 and 3930) and just have only a universal player.
The problem is who knows how long before it's actually available??
(My local Denon dealer was told it could be as late as October-November.)
The 1611 seemed like a good second choice but so far it's not readily available and we still don't know about it's video or SACD playback performance.
I hated to part with my 3800 as it was without a doubt a superb blu-ray player when it came to video and audio performance.
It also played every blu-ray movie I put in it without incidents.
The only reason(s) I decided to sell my 3800 is I want only one player for blu-ray, SACD, & DVD-Audio playback.
Secondly, I decided to sell my 3800 now before Denon pulls it from there lineup, the price plummets and it's worth almost nothing.
As it stands I was able to recover enough to afford a 2011 if and when they ever become available.
If by chance the 1611 proves that it's up to snuff I could buy it and have some green left over for something else.
post #359 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

Yes, I realize this.

I really had my sites initially set on getting a 2011 (good video chip) to replace my two Denon players (3800 and 3930) and just have only a universal player.
The problem is who knows how long before it's actually available??
(My local Denon dealer was told it could be as late as October-November.)
The 1611 seemed like a good second choice but so far it's not readily available and we still don't know about it's video or SACD playback performance.
I hated to part with my 3800 as it was without a doubt a superb blu-ray player when it came to video and audio performance.
It also played every blu-ray movie I put in it without incidents.
The only reason(s) I decided to sell my 3800 is I want only one player for blu-ray, SACD, & DVD-Audio playback.
Secondly, I decided to sell my 3800 now before Denon pulls it from there lineup, the price plummets and it's worth almost nothing.
As it stands I was able to recover enough to afford a 2011 if and when they ever become available.
If by chance the 1611 proves that it's up to snuff I could buy it and have some green left over for something else.

I see I myself have high hopes for adjustable subtitle since I am going CIH with my projector.
I have been told 1 november for the bdp-2011 here in Sweden, and stuff usually turns up earlier in the USA than Europe.So it will surely be available sooner there. I mailed Jeff Talmadge about subtitle shift and he wrote they were working on it. If not when released, probably in a future firmware. Right now I use denon 2500bt with a dvp-602 vp. Will have to buy an oppo-83 if denon can´t resolve the subtitle shift feature. Will keep the 602 for it´s realta based noise reduction wich is superb And I want edge enhancement and detail enhancement. Both the bdp-2011 and oppo-83 has that.
post #360 of 1055
question:

I see one source http://bluray-players.net/denon/deno...11udci-review/ says the DBP2011 will have Denon Link 4th: has this been confirmed?

forgive me if this has been covered already: there seems to be some confusion here...I am starting to think the link is incorrect

TIA
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